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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

gna 11-12-15 04:09 PM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 18314724)
Was the camelback frame style an effort on Raleigh's part to make a larger frame rideable for a smaller cyclist? The reason I ask is that the cranks on the few models that I have seen appear to be very short.

Yes. They were youth models.

nlerner 11-12-15 04:27 PM

Speaking of youth models, I've had this 1957 Raleigh Wendy sitting in my basement for several years now. I found it in someone's trash and from the looks of it, it was barely ridden and garage kept. The paint has remarkable lustre. Note the pedal extensions for short legs.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-j...-Ic42/31L1.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-K...-Ic42/31L4.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-b...-Ic42/31L5.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4...Ic42/Wendy.jpg

Velocivixen 11-12-15 06:47 PM

Update: The bike is disassembled and cleaned. I'll go over the rusty spots with naval jelly later. Front wheel was in backwards and there's a little pitting on the adjustable cone, but nothing too bad. The bottom bracket looks great and the spindle had one tiny dot of pitting, barely noticeable. Everything was going along great. Then, I noticed that the crown race just lifted right off! Oh no...I tried to reseat it and the thickened around the steer tube that the crown race is supposed to "grab onto" is uneven in height all the way around. The race just spins around. There is no evidence of a crash on the frame, but look at that missing paint on the steer tube and there's a slight indentation there where the pen is pointing.

What's this mean? Was it likely crashed? My bigger question is how do I get the crown race to seat? I even tried a different Raleigh crown race and same thing. Here's some close ups.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/665/2...38a9f7e8_z.jpgRaleigh Fork by velocivixen, on Flickr
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5729/...ddfb8cc7_z.jpgSteerer Raleigh Sport by velocivixen, on Flickr
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/752/2...5806701e_z.jpgSee crown race area by velocivixen, on Flickr
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5690/...cf61f5cd_z.jpgCrown Race Area by velocivixen, on Flickr
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/746/2...ac3492a5_z.jpgCrown Race by velocivixen, on Flickr

markk900 11-12-15 06:55 PM

Depending on how bad the interference fit is, either a thin shim or some epoxy would do the trick. The load is still going to be carried properly through the race to the fork; you are just trying to prevent the rotation of the race. I might even be tempted to just strike the raised area with a small punch in a couple of spots around the seat area to deform the metal just a touch to restore the interference fit you need.

Velocivixen 11-12-15 07:01 PM

Hey, thanks for the quick response. What do you think caused that crown race area (what's the official name?) to be higher on the outsides (even with the thimbles) & lower front/back? Sloppy workmanship? Did it wear down somehow? Wearing down seems unlikely. The bike is in good condition really. Even the steel rims, look pretty nice. So what is that mark where paint is missing & there's a slight indentation in the metal? My 1955 Phillips had a mark like that too.

I have JP Weld I thought about. I may just reassemble and see what happens.

The serial # is: NE 4275917. This apparently translates into Nottingham, April, 1974, the the run number. The SA hub is May of 1974, so likely original.

BigChief 11-12-15 08:26 PM

You would think this race would be a press fit, but it isn't. There's even paint underneath. Apparently, Raleigh figured the bearings would eliminate any horizontal torque on the lower race, so they didn't do anything to resist rotation on the fork tube. So yeah, a spot of epoxy or a couple dimples with a center punch should be all it needs.

Velocivixen 11-12-15 08:37 PM

@BigChief - OK, sounds good. So is this normal in this era Raleigh lower end bikes? I know I've gone to look at some Sprites in the past and the welding on the lugs was horrible and sloppy.

Also....what do you think that place where the paint is gone is from? Thoughts?

3speedslow 11-12-15 08:49 PM

Could the missing paint be rub spot from a down tube end stuck too far out ? Manufacture defect, sloppy workmanship.

I have aver also seen this on a sprite frame that did take a front hit and had sloppy down tube protrusions into the head tube.

noglider 11-12-15 08:59 PM

@nlerner, do you think that Wendy would fit a nine year old? And would you be willing to sell it?

JohnDThompson 11-12-15 09:22 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18315132)
I noticed that the crown race just lifted right off! Oh no...I tried to reseat it and the thickened around the steer tube that the crown race is supposed to "grab onto" is uneven in height all the way around. The race just spins around. There is no evidence of a crash on the frame, but look at that missing paint on the steer tube and there's a slight indentation there where the pen is pointing.

What's this mean? Was it likely crashed? My bigger question is how do I get the crown race to seat? I even tried a different Raleigh crown race and same thing.

One of the shops I worked for had a knurling tool to increase the diameter of the crown race seat. Basically, it was a ridged wheel attached to an Arbor press where you'd press the ridged wheel into the race seat while rotating the fork. This displaced enough metal outward to increase the effective diameter of the race seat. Not sure where you'd find such a thing these days, though. :(

nlerner 11-12-15 09:52 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 18315382)
@nlerner, do you think that Wendy would fit a nine year old? And would you be willing to sell it?

I have no idea on fit. And do you really think a bike that's cool to a dude in his 50s would be cool to a nine-year old?

BigChief 11-12-15 09:58 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 18315357)
Could the missing paint be rub spot from a down tube end stuck too far out ? Manufacture defect, sloppy workmanship.

I have aver also seen this on a sprite frame that did take a front hit and had sloppy down tube protrusions into the head tube.

+1 and this is sloppy workmanship. Perhaps you could reach into the headtube with small grinding wheel or file to make sure the frame protrusion is clear of the fork tube.

Velocivixen 11-12-15 10:10 PM

Update: I lined up the fork with the head tube, then stuck my finger up the head tube (man, this sounds like I've done a proctologic exam!) and felt the top edge of the pressed cup. It lines up perfectly with where the paint is missing. Makes me think someone rode with poorly adjusted headset.

OK, carry on.

thumpism 11-12-15 10:13 PM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 18315436)
One of the shops I worked for had a knurling tool to increase the diameter of the crown race seat. Basically, it was a ridged wheel attached to an Arbor press where you'd press the ridged wheel into the race seat while rotating the fork. This displaced enough metal outward to increase the effective diameter of the race seat. Not sure where you'd find such a thing these days, though. :(

You can do this with hand tools. It's called "staking." Get a cold chisel and make sure it's sharp. Get a hammer and a helper. Have the helper hold the fork by the blades with the steerer tube resting on the bench. You will position the edge of the chisel perpendicular to the crown and strike with the hammer to put a little V into the race seat, with the upper points of the V being raised edges. Have the helper rotate the fork a few degrees and repeat. Go all the way around with a dozen or so stake marks and their raised edges the result. What you've done is to expand the metal at the base of the steerer tube so the effective diameter is greater than it was before you began. It's not solid metal but it is the same process as knurling without the hard-to-find tool. Drive the crown race down onto the newly expanded (staked or knurled now) seat. I usually used Loctite or something similar to make sure any movement is limited.

BigChief 11-12-15 10:29 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18315522)
Update: I lined up the fork with the head tube, then stuck my finger up the head tube (man, this sounds like I've done a proctologic exam!) and felt the top edge of the pressed cup. It lines up perfectly with where the paint is missing. Makes me think someone rode with poorly adjusted headset.

OK, carry on.

So, there is no tube protrusion into the head tube. The headset was so loose that the pressed cup rubbed against the fork tube. Wow. It must have been clunking around pretty badly. I feel bad. I blamed Raleigh when it was a clueless owner. Must have been awful to ride like that.

noglider 11-12-15 11:23 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 18315491)
I have no idea on fit. And do you really think a bike that's cool to a dude in his 50s would be cool to a nine-year old?

I do wonder about how a kid today would feel about that style bike. I can't claim to be in touch with that crowd.

gna 11-12-15 11:35 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 18315491)
I have no idea on fit. And do you really think a bike that's cool to a dude in his 50s would be cool to a nine-year old?

My daughter likes her Space Rider.

Velocivixen 11-12-15 11:48 PM

@noglider - I'm not in touch with what children like, but I can see that bike all polished up with a woven wicker type basket on the front. It would look great! That shade of blue is a little unique too.

thumpism 11-13-15 10:32 AM

In my suburban neighborhood, unfortunately, nifty relics like this sometimes wind up planted in the front yard with flowers in the basket as highlights for a garden patch.

adventurepdx 11-13-15 12:34 PM


Originally Posted by gna (Post 18314745)
It is designed to be that way. The Raleigh Colt, Mountie, and Space Rider all came with a camelback frame. Raleigh called it a drop frame...

I've got a Raleigh brochure from the early '60's, and they call it an "angled cross-bar".

adventurepdx 11-13-15 12:38 PM


Originally Posted by gna (Post 18315618)
My daughter likes her Space Rider.

Yep, see post 8512!

adventurepdx 11-13-15 12:40 PM

And I have a question: when did Raleigh introduce the Superbe model name? In that early '60's brochure I mentioned above, there is no Superbe listed, but they do have the "Super Sports" with the common Superbe features like Dynohub and locking fork.

Salubrious 11-13-15 01:17 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18315132)
Update: The bike is disassembled and cleaned. I'll go over the rusty spots with naval jelly later. Front wheel was in backwards and there's a little pitting on the adjustable cone, but nothing too bad. The bottom bracket looks great and the spindle had one tiny dot of pitting, barely noticeable. Everything was going along great. Then, I noticed that the crown race just lifted right off! Oh no...I tried to reseat it and the thickened around the steer tube that the crown race is supposed to "grab onto" is uneven in height all the way around. The race just spins around. There is no evidence of a crash on the frame, but look at that missing paint on the steer tube and there's a slight indentation there where the pen is pointing.

What's this mean? Was it likely crashed? My bigger question is how do I get the crown race to seat? I even tried a different Raleigh crown race and same thing. Here's some close ups.
Raleigh Fork by velocivixen, on Flickr
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5729/...ddfb8cc7_z.jpgSteerer Raleigh Sport by velocivixen, on Flickr
See crown race area by velocivixen, on Flickr
Crown Race Area by velocivixen, on FlickrCrown Race by velocivixen, on Flickr

If the race can sit on the top of the fork crown, it does not matter if it can rotate, unless of course there is no grease in the vicinity- then it will matter quite a lot :)

Once the bearing race is greased up and the threaded bits are set up correctly, what will happen is that the bearing race will sit quite still on the fork crown while the bearings move. So once you have lubricated it properly you are good to go and no worries!



Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 18316948)
And I have a question: when did Raleigh introduce the Superbe model name? In that early '60's brochure I mentioned above, there is no Superbe listed, but they do have the "Super Sports" with the common Superbe features like Dynohub and locking fork.

The oldest Superbe I have seen was made about 1917 or so and employed a cross frame.http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=487912

This example is owned by a fellow named Jason who is well-known to those that ride the Lake Pepin 3-speed tour. This photo was taken after the bike had been ridden from Red Wing to Wabasha, so nearly a hundred years old it is still in service. Love of British 3-speeds indeed!

adventurepdx 11-13-15 02:02 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 18317097)
The oldest Superbe I have seen was made about 1917 or so and employed a cross frame.http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=487912

Thanks, nice specimen. Don't recall if I've seen that one on Pepin.

I should have been more specific in my last post, since big and old companies like Raleigh have used the same model names through various points in the timeline. Does anyone know when they started to call the deluxe Sports model (60s-70s era) the Superbe?

adventurepdx 11-13-15 02:15 PM

For the record, the earliest catalog mention of a "modern era" Superbe via what's on Sheldon Brown is 1967, but there are no catalogs uploaded between 1962 and 1967.


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