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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Velocivixen 05-05-16 02:10 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 18743849)
Drilling, anything but the drilling !

Good luck:thumb:

Is there a way to straighten the threaded (bent) end out a little so I can still use my Park Tool cotter press? I know the threads are toast. I've never been this stuck before.


EDIT: I had this happen on my Phillips. I think I'll use a Dremel to cut the bent part of the cotter off. Then it will be straight and I can use a punch, drill or whatever. Oh joy.

3speedslow 05-05-16 02:23 PM

@Velocivixen, Dremel is a good way of getting rid of the bent over threads. Try a punch first, might work. At least it gives you a divot to put the drill in later.

Lucky me have both pins still fine and usable.

BigChief 05-05-16 02:28 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18743854)
Is there a way to straighten the threaded (bent) end out a little so I can still use my Park Tool cotter press? I know the threads are toast. I've never been this stuck before.


EDIT: I had this happen on my Phillips. I think I'll use a Dremel to cut the bent part of the cotter off. Then it will be straight and I can use a punch, drill or whatever. Oh joy.

If the threaded part of the pin is bent, it will get stuck again even if you get the wedged part free. I think you have the right idea. Let the GB Blaster work some more, saw off some of the bent threads and try the press again or drift it with a punch if the press doesn't travel enough to push.

arex 05-05-16 02:31 PM

As many of these as you work on, maybe getting a magnet keeper would be a good investment.



Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18743842)
Thanks. I may disassemble & try that.

Right now I've bent both cotters and despite having the non drive side off and lock right and adjustable cup removed I'm afraid to go further with the bent cotter on the drive side. I let penetrating oil work overnight, whacked it with a rubber mallet to help crack up the gunk holding things stuck. I'll have to research how to get that cotter out without having to drill. I have replacement cotters from Mark Stonich, but won't be threaded for the raleigh nuts.


3speedslow 05-05-16 02:54 PM

Question,

I have a functioning 73 SA hub as a back up that I can build up for the Rudge. If I was to find an earlier hub in my LBS's tub o' hubs, can I slide the guts into the earlier shell as long as it is an AW model ? I believe it is doable but only so far.

Thanks for a reply, 3 speedslow

Velocivixen 05-05-16 05:17 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 18743957)
Question,

I have a functioning 73 SA hub as a back up that I can build up for the Rudge. If I was to find an earlier hub in my LBS's tub o' hubs, can I slide the guts into the earlier shell as long as it is an AW model ? I believe it is doable but only so far.

Thanks for a reply, 3 speedslow

I'm fairly sure you can but I've never done it myself. One way to find out. :thumb:


Drilling - do I start with a smaller diameter bit, then work up to larger ones? I've got the bent/threaded part cut off. Have started drilliing after I made a divot with a punch. More penetrating oil. I can'te believe this thing.

3speedslow 05-05-16 05:27 PM

@ velocivixen, lots of oil as you go!

To answer your question, I used small, medium bits then moved up to the largest you can get in there but not exceeding the diameter of the pin body. I was lucky as at the time I had a machine shop to do my work and had a drill press.

crossing fingers for you. I would also stop at various times and try the punch again. You never know.

Velocivixen 05-05-16 05:30 PM

What kind of oil? I have 10 w/30 motor oil, Tri-Flo and Phil Wood Tenacious Oil

markk900 05-05-16 05:34 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 18743957)
Question,

I have a functioning 73 SA hub as a back up that I can build up for the Rudge. If I was to find an earlier hub in my LBS's tub o' hubs, can I slide the guts into the earlier shell as long as it is an AW model ? I believe it is doable but only so far.

Thanks for a reply, 3 speedslow

yes - have done it several times, in both directions (ie older guts in newer hub, and newer guts in older hub)....last time was almost NOS 70s guts into 49 hub.....solved all sorts of irritations.

3speedslow 05-05-16 05:36 PM

Sorry, it was in a can labeled cutting oil, maybe machinist oil. It's been awhile and I've had my head operated on since then....

Good luck again.

3speedslow 05-05-16 05:42 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 18744285)
yes - have done it several times, in both directions (ie older guts in newer hub, and newer guts in older hub)....last time was almost NOS 70s guts into 49 hub.....solved all sorts of irritations.

Thanks, I figured it was possible but wanted to check before I dig through the tub for a older dated hub.

Velocivixen 05-05-16 06:22 PM

Hello again....um...Is this what it's supposed to look like? Seriously there is oil dripping out the other side but the cotter isn't budging.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7707/...ffccbe4a_c.jpgdrilling cotter by velocivixen, on Flickr

clubman 05-05-16 06:38 PM

Been there...go to a smaller bit and keep drilling

Velocivixen 05-05-16 07:20 PM

I assumed I'm supposed to drill from the threaded side then decided to start drilling from the other side. What a mess. I keep whacking on it every once in awhile. On the bright side the nds adjustable cup is good. The front wheel spoke nipples are rounded off so that might be interesting. I really need to get to the bottom bracket because if it's shot then I'll need to step away for awhile.

3speedslow 05-05-16 07:28 PM

Yes, it's a mess to drill but the destruction is your salvation. Like said, go to a smaller then larger drill. Keep the oil flowing and punch it every once an awhile.

It will come out.

clubman 05-05-16 07:32 PM

I'd stay with the threaded side, at least it's forcing the cotter in the direction it would ideally like to come out. Once you get through with a small bit the cotter collapses. Of course you can go through a few bits getting there. It is definitely a job requiring determination, desperation and perspiration in equal measures. Enjoy! ;)

gna 05-05-16 10:08 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 18744523)
I'd stay with the threaded side, at least it's forcing the cotter in the direction it would ideally like to come out. Once you get through with a small bit the cotter collapses. Of course you can go through a few bits getting there. It is definitely a job requiring determination, desperation and perspiration in equal measures. Enjoy! ;)

I had one where the cotter wouldn't collapse, even with bigger and bigger bits. I could see right through. Finally I grabbed the crank arms and forced them in opposite directions and the cotter finally gave way.

BigChief 05-06-16 04:05 AM


Originally Posted by gna (Post 18744903)
I had one where the cotter wouldn't collapse, even with bigger and bigger bits. I could see right through. Finally I grabbed the crank arms and forced them in opposite directions and the cotter finally gave way.

In all my years of 3 speeds, I've never dealt with a cotter that wouldn't drift out with a punch. I've bent a few and had to saw off the threads, but still always got it out with a punch and hammer so I don't know about drilling. It seems to me that there is no force that would cause it to collapse in the center. And you can only drill it open so far because it's a D shaped pin. There's still plenty of steel stuck onto the sides of the hole. I think the idea of moving the crank arms in opposite directions makes sense. Especially if one could be held securely while the other was tapped with a mallet.

gster 05-06-16 04:47 AM

Here's a Raleigh built Supercycle for sale on Kijiji Toronto. A 3 speed hub with a coaster brake and caliper brakes as well. Priced at $225.00.https://threespeedmania.files.wordpr...271vcgzfry.jpghttps://threespeedmania.files.wordpr.../27xzdsrw1.jpghttps://threespeedmania.files.wordpr.../27vcgndf1.jpghttps://threespeedmania.files.wordpr.../27bcfzry1.jpg .

clubman 05-06-16 08:05 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 18745150)
In all my years of 3 speeds, I've never dealt with a cotter that wouldn't drift out with a punch. I've bent a few and had to saw off the threads, but still always got it out with a punch and hammer so I don't know about drilling. It seems to me that there is no force that would cause it to collapse in the center. And you can only drill it open so far because it's a D shaped pin. There's still plenty of steel stuck onto the sides of the hole. I think the idea of moving the crank arms in opposite directions makes sense. Especially if one could be held securely while the other was tapped with a mallet.

If you ever do come across a cotter that won't punch out, it's already been deformed and mushroomed further in the crevice. Drilling through relieves that pressure and 'collapse' is a generalization but it usually becomes very loose to the point that punches can finish the job. I think I've had to drill a half dozen in my decades of cotter work and I still hate it. These days a Park cotter press does the job right pretty much everytime.

arex 05-06-16 08:43 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18744492)
I really need to get to the bottom bracket because if it's shot then I'll need to step away for awhile.

Any reason to think it IS shot?

Slash5 05-06-16 08:51 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18743842)
Thanks. I may disassemble & try that.

Right now I've bent both cotters and despite having the non drive side off and lock right and adjustable cup removed I'm afraid to go further with the bent cotter on the drive side. I let penetrating oil work overnight, whacked it with a rubber mallet to help crack up the gunk holding things stuck. I'll have to research how to get that cotter out without having to drill. I have replacement cotters from Mark Stonich, but won't be threaded for the raleigh nuts.

Know anyone with a air hammer/chisel? You can buy one from Harbor Freight for $10. You would likely have to grind one of the punches smaller but I would bet it would remove a cotter in a few seconds. Never done it myself but I am gaining a lot of respect for impact wrenches.

bmthom.gis 05-06-16 09:00 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18744492)
I assumed I'm supposed to drill from the threaded side then decided to start drilling from the other side. What a mess. I keep whacking on it every once in awhile. On the bright side the nds adjustable cup is good. The front wheel spoke nipples are rounded off so that might be interesting. I really need to get to the bottom bracket because if it's shot then I'll need to step away for awhile.

No problems with the nipples...just buy a Nipple Driver. Park Tool ND-1. They end up being fun to use. Of course, for getting the old ones out a normal screw driver works fine, too. Probably better, because you can torque on it.

Velocivixen 05-06-16 09:04 AM

@clubman - I have an official Park Tool Cotter press and, despite being careful to line things up, both cotters bent. The first one came out though. I tried to be very careful about alignment but these threaded ends seemed soft to me.
@arex - the non drive side adjustable cup came out beautifully to reveal bone dry cups with dull brown bearings and tiny bit of rust from the bottom bracket shell. It sounded dry and it was.

As as an aside, my hands and forearms are very sore this morning.

arex 05-06-16 09:15 AM

I have spare cups if you need them.


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