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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Ged117 10-31-19 11:35 AM

For my Peugeot Clubman commuter project, I'm building my FW into a 700c velocity dyad and a dynohub into the front wheel. The FW has an 18t cog. My Peugeot's small chain ring is 40t (the big one is 52...I don't have the legs for that combo). I have a cotter press so servicing the French bottom bracket and cranks is not a big deal, and I would like to retain them. My question is: will the 40t be too small in combination with the four-speed and 18t cog? Or would that be an ideal setup? I'm new to gearing discussions, so just curious. Any suggestions? Thanks. The bike will be used for commutes in all weather conditions and day rides. The Ottawa valley isn't very hilly, and my various route options are relatively flat.

Ged

Salubrious 10-31-19 12:42 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 21188643)
For my Peugeot Clubman commuter project, I'm building my FW into a 700c velocity dyad and a dynohub into the front wheel. The FW has an 18t cog. My Peugeot's small chain ring is 40t (the big one is 52...I don't have the legs for that combo). I have a cotter press so servicing the French bottom bracket and cranks is not a big deal, and I would like to retain them. My question is: will the 40t be too small in combination with the four-speed and 18t cog? Or would that be an ideal setup? I'm new to gearing discussions, so just curious. Any suggestions? Thanks. The bike will be used for commutes in all weather conditions and day rides. The Ottawa valley isn't very hilly, and my various route options are relatively flat.

Ged

I think you might want a larger front sprocket unless you also plan to use a second in the front, in which case I'd make the latter a 48. My Lenton Marque III has an FW and 27" wheels; I run an 18 in the rear and a 46 in front and as long as the hub doesn't pop out of gear I'm good on some pretty serious climbs in low, and high is pretty decent. I have to do some work on my hub though- if I stand on the pedals in low (while holding the shift in low at the same time) it will still slip a tooth a bit which is disheartening- both because I have to stop and because of the damage I'm probably doing. The FW on my Humber Sports doesn't behave that way at all.

Ged117 10-31-19 01:39 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 21188782)
I think you might want a larger front sprocket unless you also plan to use a second in the front, in which case I'd make the latter a 48. My Lenton Marque III has an FW and 27" wheels; I run an 18 in the rear and a 46 in front and as long as the hub doesn't pop out of gear I'm good on some pretty serious climbs in low, and high is pretty decent. I have to do some work on my hub though- if I stand on the pedals in low (while holding the shift in low at the same time) it will still slip a tooth a bit which is disheartening- both because I have to stop and because of the damage I'm probably doing. The FW on my Humber Sports doesn't behave that way at all.


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 21188815)
Ged, the FW hub has a lowest gear ratio of ⅔, where the more common AW has . In percentage the difference is 12.5%. For the FW with 40/18 sprocket ratio the overall ratio is 40/18/1.125 = 1.975. With a 27x1 tire the circumference is

Thanks guys. I was thinking 46t based on my other reading so that is good to confirm that it works for others. My FW is an alloy '53, and I am going to recondition it. It has never been opened and I am not sure of the wear on internal parts. We'll see. I want it ready for year round operation (I'm going to use synthetic 5W30 for winter riding after I pack new bearings in marine grease) so I imagine I'll be replacing pawl springs and perhaps other parts depending on wear. Have you had to do that?

For the chain wheel, I figured that I match the bolt count and a new one should work, right? I might replace the bottom bracket with the velo orange unit since it is 40 years old. I imagine I must then determine the spindle length.

This should be fun. I'm excited to ride the bike when completed. Lighter wheels, FW hub, and B&M light set powered by the dynohub.

HPL 11-01-19 05:41 AM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 21181330)
I picked up a Columbia 3 speed this morning for cheap. The Columbia headbadge is nice - Westfield, Mass. I think they made better headbadges than bikes.

I stopped in Westfield, MA a couple weeks ago. Now they make great beer, Westfield River Brewery. The "Dude", a coffee porter is very good. I never looked, but I'm sure the yard sales, flea markets, other small shops, and of course garages/basements have a plethora of Columbia bikes in various states if functionality. I should do a little hunting next time since it's become my last stop before getting home on my northern trips.

paulb_in_bkln 11-01-19 04:37 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 21188863)
I might replace the bottom bracket with the velo orange unit since it is 40 years old. I imagine I must then determine the spindle length.

As you know on my Peugeot mixte conversion I wanted a cotterless alloy crankset so I used the Velo Orange BB. It went in in a jiff and with about a thousand miles on it, no problems. But you realize the old steel cottered crankset is out, in that case? I bought a new but vintage look single-ring drilled out crankset off eBay. It cost about fifty bucks. I was really nervous it might be a hunk of junk but although the finish is not absolutely perfect it works just fine and it gives the 60s/70s look I wanted.https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f890006182.jpg

paulb_in_bkln 11-01-19 06:22 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 21190670)

Did you notice I forgot the axle cap with the indicator window? I caught it quick but the bike shifted fine without it, at least for a couple miles. Boy was my face red.

Ged117 11-02-19 10:12 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 21190670)
As you know on my Peugeot mixte conversion I wanted a cotterless alloy crankset so I used the Velo Orange BB. It went in in a jiff and with about a thousand miles on it, no problems. But you realize the old steel cottered crankset is out, in that case? I bought a new but vintage look single-ring drilled out crankset off eBay. It cost about fifty bucks. I was really nervous it might be a hunk of junk but although the finish is not absolutely perfect it works just fine and it gives the 60s/70s look I wanted.https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f890006182.jpg

I've gone back and forth on it. Since I'll have to find a new chainwheel if I want to keep the steel crank, maybe it makes sense to simply buy a new crankset to go with a new bottom bracket since the bike will be a all-weather commuter for years to come. Save some weight as well I expect. Today I had fun taking apart, degreasing, and reassembling my 1962 dynohub and my 1953 Sturmey FW four speed. The dynohub was exceptionally clean inside - I don't think it saw much use. I was careful not to separate the magnet and armature. Hopefully it will work. I repacked the bearings, polished the chrome, and put it back together. The FW was much more time consuming. I don't think it has been opened since 1953. Gunky, nasty old grease and oil inside. My liberal use of PB Blaster down the oil port in the past few days really loosened it all though. I took it apart, cleaned the parts with a toothbrush and citrus degreaser, and put it back together. I had to do it about three times before I got it right. Fresh bearings packed in marine grease, and topped up with a little synthetic 5W30. I'm excited to build these hubs into a new wheelset.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2M...=w866-h1540-no

paulb_in_bkln 11-03-19 08:38 AM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 21192148)
I've gone back and forth on it. Since I'll have to find a new chainwheel if I want to keep the steel crank, maybe it makes sense to simply buy a new crankset to go with a new bottom bracket since the bike will be a all-weather commuter for years to come. Save some weight as well I expect. Today I had fun taking apart, degreasing, and reassembling my 1962 dynohub and my 1953 Sturmey FW four speed. The dynohub was exceptionally clean inside - I don't think it saw much use. I was careful not to separate the magnet and armature. Hopefully it will work. I repacked the bearings, polished the chrome, and put it back together. The FW was much more time consuming. I don't think it has been opened since 1953. Gunky, nasty old grease and oil inside. My liberal use of PB Blaster down the oil port in the past few days really loosened it all though. I took it apart, cleaned the parts with a toothbrush and citrus degreaser, and put it back together. I had to do it about three times before I got it right. Fresh bearings packed in marine grease, and topped up with a little synthetic 5W30. I'm excited to build these hubs into a new wheelset.

On my Raleigh and Rudge I've stuck with the cottered cranks even though, without a cotter extractor, they are a damn nuisance. I wanted a more vintage-but-deluxe look for the Pug plus save some weight (also the crankset that was on the derelict bike when I found it was so deeply rusted it was useless). I would have left in the original BB if I could have found the right cotterless spindle, but came up blank. Hence the Velo Orange. Anyway with the AW and a 46 tooth ring and 19 tooth cog the gearing has been fine for NYC. I even rode a somewhat hilly ride in Westchester two weeks ago and had no trouble. My riding companion was spinning in his lowest gears sometimes while I was standing on the pedals. What's so wrong? Ideally third gear would be lower or there would be a gear between 2 and 3. If an FW like yours came my way for free or near free I would jump on it. But ultimately it's the legs, not the gear ratios.

PS It sounds like a very satisfying job, rebuilding that FW.

Ged117 11-03-19 12:18 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 21192424)
On my Raleigh and Rudge I've stuck with the cottered cranks even though, without a cotter extractor, they are a damn nuisance. I wanted a more vintage-but-deluxe look for the Pug plus save some weight (also the crankset that was on the derelict bike when I found it was so deeply rusted it was useless). I would have left in the original BB if I could have found the right cotterless spindle, but came up blank. Hence the Velo Orange. Anyway with the AW and a 46 tooth ring and 19 tooth cog the gearing has been fine for NYC. I even rode a somewhat hilly ride in Westchester two weeks ago and had no trouble. My riding companion was spinning in his lowest gears sometimes while I was standing on the pedals. What's so wrong? Ideally third gear would be lower or there would be a gear between 2 and 3. If an FW like yours came my way for free or near free I would jump on it. But ultimately it's the legs, not the gear ratios.

PS It sounds like a very satisfying job, rebuilding that FW.

It was very satisfying once I'd figured it out and had it ticking along. I had the clutch retainer key thingy that the driver engages (it isn't called that) in upside down, and I had forgotten to connect the two ends of the indicator before installing the driver and clutch spring. I'd also forgotten to secure the larger bearing dust cap so the driver wasn't sitting or engaging properly. After I connected the indicator rod (the threading is impossibly tiny and I was very careful), everything was properly aligned and the hub functioned as it ought to. I used an old bread tin to clean each individual part. It is nice to see things shine up and a long line of parts waiting all ready to be reinstalled. The FW took me some hours to clean and put back together. Longer than I originally expected. I finished the dynohub in about an hour since it was in such nice shape to begin with. For the Peugeot, I think I want to keep the steel cottered crank since I have fresh cotters for it from Bikesmith and I like how it looks. However, how to source a 46t chainwheel that will fit with the original crank set?

gster 11-03-19 12:18 PM

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3c22c0d32e.jpg

paulb_in_bkln 11-03-19 03:49 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 21192737)
However, how to source a 46t chainwheel that will fit with the original crank set?

IDK but if it exists someone on this forum will.

paulb_in_bkln 11-03-19 03:51 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21192738)

Some of those posters with relatively minor adjustments could have gone into old Esquire magazine's Vargas girl feature.

Road Fan 11-03-19 04:04 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 21188863)
Thanks guys. I was thinking 46t based on my other reading so that is good to confirm that it works for others. My FW is an alloy '53, and I am going to recondition it. It has never been opened and I am not sure of the wear on internal parts. We'll see. I want it ready for year round operation (I'm going to use synthetic 5W30 for winter riding after I pack new bearings in marine grease) so I imagine I'll be replacing pawl springs and perhaps other parts depending on wear. Have you had to do that?

For the chain wheel, I figured that I match the bolt count and a new one should work, right? I might replace the bottom bracket with the velo orange unit since it is 40 years old. I imagine I must then determine the spindle length.

This should be fun. I'm excited to ride the bike when completed. Lighter wheels, FW hub, and B&M light set powered by the dynohub.

With the crankset, one thing to keep in mind is that the Lentons (I have a 1952 Rudge Aero Special, a Rudge badging of the 1952 Super Lenton and built on the same production lines, along with a Humber clone) use the old pre-BSA BB threading. Aside from being a challenge to remove, you may have trouble finding a way to install a more-modern BB/chainset such as a TA Cyclotourist, Stronglight 49D, or many others.

On mine I intend to put on a TA or Stronglight. First installation will be most likely a 46T alloy front chainring with the original AW hub, then later an alloy-shell FM that I scored, then eventually a front granny to be added. Gotta sort how to do chain slack adjustment.

My first try at this death-defying feat will be to keep the original Raleigh-threaded BB cups and try to install a TA BB spindle with a TA chainset. If that works, I can build the bike and do a little "old-bike happy dance!"

elcraft 11-03-19 05:40 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 21192982)
With the crankset, one thing to keep in mind is that the Lentons (I have a 1952 Rudge Aero Special, a Rudge badging of the 1952 Super Lenton and built on the same production lines, along with a Humber clone) use the old pre-BSA BB threading. Aside from being a challenge to remove, you may have trouble finding a way to install a more-modern BB/chainset such as a TA Cyclotourist, Stronglight 49D, or many others.

On mine I intend to put on a TA or Stronglight. First installation will be most likely a 46T alloy front chainring with the original AW hub, then later an alloy-shell FM that I scored, then eventually a front granny to be added. Gotta sort how to do chain slack adjustment.

My first try at this death-defying feat will be to keep the original Raleigh-threaded BB cups and try to install a TA BB spindle with a TA chainset. If that works, I can build the bike and do a little "old-bike happy dance!"

Since you really only need a chain tensioner, rather than a derailleur, you could go really minimalist/era "apparently" appropriate and locate a Huret Luxe or Svelto derailleur. Then , using the very long limiting screws from an Huret Allvit, you could effectively "pin" the Derailleur at the ideal spot for the chainline. These steel derailleurs are lighter than an Allvit, but look plausible as OEM, and are more than adequate as a chain tensioner w/ their multiple position pulley cage tension.
Well, that's at least what I might try if I were in your unique and fortunate situation. I did something similar w/ limiting the travel of a Huret Jubilee for use with a triple cog derailleur set up. The Allvit limiting screws are fairly easy to acquire at a Co-Op or on eBay (you can salvage them from rusty or scarred items that wouldn't command a very high price.).

Road Fan 11-03-19 07:09 PM


Originally Posted by elcraft (Post 21193085)
Since you really only need a chain tensioner, rather than a derailleur, you could go really minimalist/era "apparently" appropriate and locate a Huret Luxe or Svelto derailleur. Then , using the very long limiting screws from an Huret Allvit, you could effectively "pin" the Derailleur at the ideal spot for the chainline. These steel derailleurs are lighter than an Allvit, but look plausible as OEM, and are more than adequate as a chain tensioner w/ their multiple position pulley cage tension.
Well, that's at least what I might try if I were in your unique and fortunate situation. I did something similar w/ limiting the travel of a Huret Jubilee for use with a triple cog derailleur set up. The Allvit limiting screws are fairly easy to acquire at a Co-Op or on eBay (you can salvage them from rusty or scarred items that wouldn't command a very high price.).

Actually I have a period Cyclo chain tensioner. All I need is to work out how to attach it to the chainstay or dropout.

gster 11-04-19 06:32 AM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 21193208)
Actually I have a period Cyclo chain tensioner. All I need is to work out how to attach it to the chainstay or dropout.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5b5e1b0674.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...716093483e.jpg

Road Fan 11-04-19 11:56 AM

Great pics! Yours seems to be a derailleur, not just sprung tension arm. Mine is missing the band clamps around the chainstay. It also does not need the shift cables or the long coil spring, as far as I can tell. What is that long coil spring for?

I also don't have that arm that is reaching forward from the dropout to the derailleur.

OOPSQ! that "arm" is the drive chain!

paulb_in_bkln 11-04-19 04:25 PM

Dealer installed option.

gster 11-05-19 05:55 AM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 21194157)
Great pics! Yours seems to be a derailleur, not just sprung tension arm. Mine is missing the band clamps around the chainstay. It also does not need the shift cables or the long coil spring, as far as I can tell. What is that long coil spring for?

I also don't have that arm that is reaching forward from the dropout to the derailleur.

OOPSQ! that "arm" is the drive chain!

It's not my bike. It belongs to a neighbour/friend who bought the bike new
in 1956. He fit the Cyclo and the 3 cog cassette shortly after. He refers to
it as "French gears".
It's a Norman Club bike that has clearly been well loved and ridden hard.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5a97b45c62.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9f775bedfe.jpg
The original bill of sale and the cancelled cheque to pay for it!
He paid an extra $5.00 for a kickstand and electric horn!

gster 11-05-19 06:22 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21195348)
It's not my bike. It belongs to a neighbour/friend who bought the bike new
in 1956. He fit the Cyclo and the 3 cog cassette shortly after. He refers to
it as "French gears".
It's a Norman Club bike that has clearly been well loved and ridden hard.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5a97b45c62.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9f775bedfe.jpg
The original bill of sale and the cancelled cheque to pay for it!
He paid an extra $5.00 for a kickstand and electric horn!

OT but interesting...
The Bank that the cheque was drawn on is now a hip clothing/bike shop. Shinola out of Detroit.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bdf15885a4.jpg
Directly across the street, since demolished stood an old Columbia Hotel/bar.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...422b470197.jpg
During the summer of 1968, James Earl Ray was known to drink here.
While evading capture, he had rented a room just up the street.
He had another room a few blocks away, telling one landlord he worked nights
and the other he worked days.
He would divide his time between the two while obtaining a Canadian passport
in the name of a dead man........

By the time the police tracked him to Toronto, he'd escaped to London where
he was finally caught.
More here:
https://losttoronto2.wordpress.com/c...ames-earl-ray/

Ged117 11-05-19 12:02 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21195348)
It's not my bike. It belongs to a neighbour/friend who bought the bike new
in 1956. He fit the Cyclo and the 3 cog cassette shortly after. He refers to
it as "French gears".
It's a Norman Club bike that has clearly been well loved and ridden hard.


The original bill of sale and the cancelled cheque to pay for it!
He paid an extra $5.00 for a kickstand and electric horn!

Wow. The Norman is in rough shape but I think with some work it would come out the other end nicely. Do you think he will offer you the bike?

My 1950 Superbe has the 3 cog cassette, Cyclo derailer, and AG 3 speed. The big cog is 21t, and I find that the AG works perfectly with the 21t cog, and I don't have much use for the derailer most of the time save for some fun on the flats / down hill when I feel like moving things along.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...736d5a4b0b.jpg

1950 AG hub with '49 dated Cyclo 3-speed derailer.

gster 11-05-19 03:25 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 21195845)
Wow. The Norman is in rough shape but I think with some work it would come out the other end nicely. Do you think he will offer you the bike?

My 1950 Superbe has the 3 cog cassette, Cyclo derailer, and AG 3 speed. The big cog is 21t, and I find that the AG works perfectly with the 21t cog, and I don't have much use for the derailer most of the time save for some fun on the flats / down hill when I feel like moving things along.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...736d5a4b0b.jpg

1950 AG hub with '49 dated Cyclo 3-speed derailer.

Well...
He certainly likes to hang onto things....
I'm first on the list should it need a new home,

paulb_in_bkln 11-07-19 04:46 AM


Originally Posted by HPL (Post 21184849)
Just going through some stuff for an old headbadge and forgot I had a bunch of English marque examples, may have more stashed about the place. Should be a Dawes around somewhere.

Nice collection. What I wish I'd thought about a long time ago is bike shop seat tube stickers/decals. All the bike shops I've used or just passed by on trips. I could have asked each one for one of their stickers and think how cool it would be to have all those.

HPL 11-08-19 02:23 AM

Bike Shop Stickers
 
3 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 21198289)
Nice collection. What I wish I'd thought about a long time ago is bike shop seat tube stickers/decals. All the bike shops I've used or just passed by on trips. I could have asked each one for one of their stickers and think how cool it would be to have all those.

Funny you bring that up, I was just by the shop where I bought my first new bike nearly 40 years ago and I forgot to get a decal; my older brother was embarrassing us both and distracted me. I never used too many shops, except for now mainly to peruse their "junk/vintage" parts. Here are some still hanging on the old helmet, more than likely covering up some scars. That's my '80s Bell "Stratos", I guess now vintage helmet that I still use.

dweenk 11-08-19 01:41 PM

Any Armstrong Owners Out There?
 
I have a 23" 1969 Armstrong. Are there any other Armstrong owners out there?

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8135032b67.jpg


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