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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Gasbag 08-13-15 10:30 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 18071913)
It's pricey, but did you notice how he upped his game on this tool? Plated now, nice rounded edges, quite slick. Not a home made tool anymore.

It is a much better looking tool now. The BikeSmith press also looks to have the advantage of properly installing cotters due to the cotters nut can be left on during the pressing process. I was going to make a fixed cup tool but BikeSmith discounts $5 for the combined purchase and there is no additional charge for shipping. I guess this means I'm going to have to restore some more English bikes so I can justify the purchase :thumb:

gna 08-13-15 11:21 AM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 18066378)
I have a Sturmey Archer SC3 hub from 1988 that needs repair. I've never had to rebuild an AW hub (they seem to be invincible), but I've been told that they are fairly easy to deal with. I know that many folks think that the SC3 was a poor design - but I have one that does not want to freewheel.

I have a diagram and exploded view of the hub, but I would appreciate tips from folks who have actual experience in the process.

I've done two. The links to diagrams and instructions at Sheldon Brown are helpful. It's not that hard to rebuild. The biggest problem is getting the left side adjusted correctly when tightened down. I had to use "Kentucky windage" to set it.

BigChief 08-13-15 02:12 PM

I bought the BB tool with the discount. Even though I never remove the fixed cup for a normal service. So, it's oiled and wrapped in plastic way back in the tool box just in case I ever need to replace a fixed cup. You never know after all and it's always fun to get new tools.

Velocivixen 08-13-15 02:32 PM

@gna - what's "Kentucky windage"?

dweenk 08-13-15 04:03 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18072787)
@gna - what's "Kentucky windage"?

When you aim at the target and you are not quite sure that you are right - you shoot a little left or right (depending) - then you recalc your "Kentucky windage" if you missed. And that's the truth.

Velocivixen 08-13-15 04:27 PM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 18073009)
When you aim at the target and you are not quite sure that you are right - you shoot a little left or right (depending) - then you recalc your "Kentucky windage" if you missed. And that's the truth.

Fantastic! I like it.

I will get the bearings adjusted mostly, off the bike. Then install and tighten the nuts down tight. If that makes the bearings too tight, I loosen the nuts, leaving the wheel on the bike and use my spanners to adjust, retighten nuts, etc. That saves having to remove the wheel entirely. It's my fine tuning way of doing it.

wahoonc 08-13-15 05:33 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18072787)
@gna - what's "Kentucky windage"?

Also know in the industry as SWAG (Scientific Wild A** Guess). Good thing about the old Raleighs is that the tolerances aren't all that close, get it set and let 'er ride.

Aaron :)

noglider 08-13-15 08:58 PM

Citibike (the NYC bike share) has new models. Rather than Shimano hubs (dynamo/drum brake hub in front, 3-speed/drum brake in rear), it has Sturmey Archer hubs with the same features. I like the SA hubs a lot better. The Shimano brakes require a lot of hand effort; not so with the SAs. The rear hub has that familiar tick-tick-tick while pedaling but only in 3rd gear, not 2nd. Why is that? Also, third gear comes with the cable loosest, not tightest. Now, I do see the technical advantage to the Shimano approach to that, but my sentimental self prefers the SA way. (The Shimano advantage is that if the cable breaks, you're stuck in 1st gear, not 3rd. But with Citibike, the cables are entirely shrouded in a big conduit, so the likelihood is tiny.)

The bike also accelerates and handles a lot better than the old model. I can't even figure out what makes it so much better.

gna 08-13-15 09:26 PM

2 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18073078)
Fantastic! I like it.

I will get the bearings adjusted mostly, off the bike. Then install and tighten the nuts down tight. If that makes the bearings too tight, I loosen the nuts, leaving the wheel on the bike and use my spanners to adjust, retighten nuts, etc. That saves having to remove the wheel entirely. It's my fine tuning way of doing it.

Pretty much it. I had to adjust the left side of the S3C hub to be a bit loose, then when I tightened it up, it was just so. Took me a few times to get my "Kentucky Windage."

I did an S3C in a Raleigh Space Rider for my daughter. She doesn't quite have the hand strength to use hand brakes, so she likes the coaster. She rode it at Lake Pepin this year:

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=471073

I fixed up a Phillips with an S3C for my Sister in Law:

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=471075

Oh, and back to dweenk's S3C hub. Is it possible that the brake arm got rotated, so the coaster brake is dragging?

thumpism 08-14-15 08:44 AM

On the local CL this morning. It's a '70s bike, not '60s as he speculates, and the seat is not leather. Plastic SA trigger, plenteous reflectors of the CPSC type and the alloy brake levers and calipers indicate later production. I have not seen this stock Raleigh color combo. And it's not quite "excellent." Good to pretty good would be my estimate.

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dweenk 08-14-15 10:41 AM

@gna - Oh, and back to dweenk's S3C hub. Is it possible that the brake arm got rotated, so the coaster brake is dragging?

Good thought! So if the band that secures the brake arm came loose, and someone applied the coaster brake, then the arm would rotate and lock the hub? Would the arm go CW or CCW?

gna 08-14-15 11:52 AM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 18075118)
@gna - Oh, and back to dweenk's S3C hub. Is it possible that the brake arm got rotated, so the coaster brake is dragging?

Good thought! So if the band that secures the brake arm came loose, and someone applied the coaster brake, then the arm would rotate and lock the hub? Would the arm go CW or CCW?

Not sure; I think it would loosen up and go CCW but it may have over tightened if moved CW and ridden. You could rotate the arm down and see if it loosens up.

wahoonc 08-15-15 05:02 AM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 18074781)
On the local CL this morning. It's a '70s bike, not '60s as he speculates, and the seat is not leather. Plastic SA trigger, plenteous reflectors of the CPSC type and the alloy brake levers and calipers indicate later production. I have not seen this stock Raleigh color combo. And it's not quite "excellent." Good to pretty good would be my estimate.

Late 70's also the 23" frame size which is a bit more difficult to come by. They did not use that rear reflector until 1977 in the US. I think the wheel reflectors are Eurospec. The US models used a long white one that year. That is an unusual color too.

Aaron :)

scale 08-15-15 06:42 AM

Took it out finally for a good 7 mile ride last night. FUN. Its the smoothest I have ridden so far. I was able to fine tune my shifting on the ride and now have all 3 gears working great. Not sure when you would get into 3rd gear unless you were going down hill. I had a heck of a time getting up a few hills as standing out of the saddle is extremely twitchy and i dont quite trust the hub not to slip and that would result in some pain for sure. I have heard of guys going to larger cogs in the back to better utilize all 3 gears. Perhaps I will look into this. I need to get the the wheels trued as well. the rear has quite the wander. I am hoping my LBS can pull it straight again.

BigChief 08-15-15 08:54 AM

That is my only gripe about AW hubs. They're geared a bit too high for me. It's easy to find a 22T cog on eBay. You may have to lengthen the chain, but me, I prefer to use a brand new chain when I gear down a Sports. I don't think you need to worry about the hub slipping into neutral once you have the cable adjustment right. There's this one spot where it can slip into neutral from 2nd if the cable is too slack in 3rd. One thing that helps with a precise cable adjustment is to make sure the indicator pin/chain assembly isn't screwed all the way into the hub. It should be backed out one turn so the chain self squares the links over the axle nut edge.

scale 08-15-15 09:26 AM

i may try the 22t route. On ebay i show some $3 ones that appear to be stamped SA. Would one of those be fine in a older hub? Ive never removed the gear from the hub before. Just wanna make sure it will work before i buy one that doesnt :)

BigChief 08-15-15 10:09 AM

This cog would work with your AW hub.
Sturmey Archer 1 8" 22T Coaster Brake Cog | eBay

BigChief 08-15-15 10:13 AM

And here's a video showing how to remove the cog.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNxwMwzS3Jo

arex 08-15-15 10:40 AM

Bikesmith has cogs up to 26T.

scale 08-15-15 11:36 AM

thanks! some are listed as 1/8 and some are listed as 3/32. How do i know what chain i have? Also... the link above references that it is for a coaster brake. This one is not a coaster brake. Its a freewheel. Does that matter or are they universal in that aspect?

arex 08-15-15 12:16 PM

You'd match the thickness of your cog to the thickness of your chainring and chain. I've heard you can use an 1/8" chain with a 3/32" cog, but I'd think it'd be noisy and skippy.

Chances are good, though, that you have a 1/8" chain, unless the bike is fairly new or you're using a modern crank and chainring.

thumpism 08-15-15 01:02 PM


Originally Posted by arex (Post 18077836)
You'd match the thickness of your cog to the thickness of your chainring and chain. I've heard you can use an 1/8" chain with a 3/32" cog, but I'd think it'd be noisy and skippy.

Chances are good, though, that you have a 1/8" chain, unless the bike is fairly new or you're using a modern crank and chainring.

I'm using a Shimano Nexus 24T rear cog on my Sports. The Nexus cog used the same three-lobe pattern that the SA cogs use to fit on the hub driver. Can't recall if I used a thin spacer to make up the difference in cog thickness for the spring lockring to hold it tightly. Chain is stock 1/8" but I replaced it with a newer KMC 1/8" with extra links to make it long enough with the new cog. The Nexus cog is for 3/32" so the wider chain fits it and I notice no noise due to what might be considered to be a sloppy fit. No skip since they are both 1/2" pitch. A thicker cog for the 1/8" chain would not fit with a narrower 3/32 chain.

It is more important for me to have suitable gearing than to worry whether it's a stock SA part that provides it.

BigChief 08-15-15 02:06 PM

Those chromed SA 22T coaster brake cogs fit the AW hub perfectly. They even have the same offset. All the old English 3 speeds use 1/8" chains, same as a single speed. The more difficult part will be getting the chain the correct length with the bigger cog. I like to use a brand new chain. They always come longer than you need. Then I figure how long it needs to be and use my chain breaker to get the length right. Nothing wrong with using the master link that comes with new 1/8" chains to connect the ends the same as you would on a single speed bike. I think it's handy to have a master link on the chain anyway.

wahoonc 08-15-15 03:15 PM

The 20t or 22t is my standard swap out. I have one with a 24t but I use that bike for hauling groceries so the lower gearing comes in handy.

Aaron :)

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7441/...f7c0982f_z.jpg

JohnDThompson 08-15-15 03:58 PM


Originally Posted by arex (Post 18077836)
You'd match the thickness of your cog to the thickness of your chainring and chain. I've heard you can use an 1/8" chain with a 3/32" cog, but I'd think it'd be noisy and skippy.

No, it's not. 1/8" chain on 3/32" cogs and/or chainrings works just fine.

Slash5 08-15-15 04:39 PM


Originally Posted by wahoonc (Post 18078215)
The 20t or 22t is my standard swap out. I have one with a 24t but I use that bike for hauling groceries so the lower gearing comes in handy.
Aaron :)

I like your idea of groceries - the necessaries.

BigChief 08-15-15 05:04 PM

Speaking of gearing down AWs. Does anyone here have experience using a 22T cog on a DL-1? Mine has the export style chainguard, but there's not as much clearance over the cog and chain as the Sports. Looks like it might be a close call and the chainguard looks like it wouldn't be easy to modify. If there's ever been an English 3 speed that could use gearing down it's the DL-1. Overdrive on this bike is TALL.

Gasbag 08-15-15 06:42 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 18078499)
Speaking of gearing down AWs. Does anyone here have experience using a 22T cog on a DL-1? Mine has the export style chainguard, but there's not as much clearance over the cog and chain as the Sports. Looks like it might be a close call and the chainguard looks like it wouldn't be easy to modify. If there's ever been an English 3 speed that could use gearing down it's the DL-1. Overdrive on this bike is TALL.

I'll second that. I took the DL1 out for an hours ride at dawn this morning. OD will give your legs a good workout and I never stayed in it long without some downhill gravity boost. A gear change was put on my to-do list before I got back home.

BigChief 08-15-15 11:02 PM

Let me know how it goes. It would be great if it fit without modifying the chainguard. I probably would have tried it out by now, but removing the rear wheel from a DL-1 is one of my least favorite jobs.

wahoonc 08-16-15 04:46 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 18078499)
Speaking of gearing down AWs. Does anyone here have experience using a 22T cog on a DL-1? Mine has the export style chainguard, but there's not as much clearance over the cog and chain as the Sports. Looks like it might be a close call and the chainguard looks like it wouldn't be easy to modify. If there's ever been an English 3 speed that could use gearing down it's the DL-1. Overdrive on this bike is TALL.

I think it just fits from what I can recall. I have one that needs gearing down too. My full chain case is a Eastman but I think it was made to the same shape and size as the OEM Raleigh. So whoever gets to it first let us know if it works or not. :p

Aaron :)


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