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carleton 11-11-17 05:25 PM


Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 19986960)
I believe Roy came over from the BMX team.

Good call. I think Hoogland was a BMXer, too.

You know, outside of the women's TP team (which seems to be it's own entity), the US has some of the best speed skating, BMX, and track and field feeder programs in the world...yet we can't tap into those and pull out great athletes to put on track bike.

It's a failure of our National Team system, not the pool of available talent.

carleton 11-12-17 04:35 PM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 19986875)
Who says that 33cm sprint bars are too small for Madison throws:

https://i.imgur.com/09mNDQ1.jpg

I also think these are 33cm Alpinas:

https://i.imgur.com/TKwo4of.jpg

So, 33cm Alpinas were used by the men's (DEN) and women's (GBR) winning Madison teams at the World Cup this weekend.

Does this change the "meta" regarding handlebars for the Madison?

Godsight 11-12-17 07:21 PM

I think the narrower handlebar meta was already there in endurance racing (considering the number of riders on 35cm scatto or 33cm alpina in omnium events). Mostly a case of old habits die hard and the reluctance of pro rider trying new stuff when they are still winning with the old stuff. More riders winning on narrow handlebars will push the rest of the peleton to atleast try narrow handlebar. I think the same will happen for skinsuit with number pockets in the near future. A good example of this would be the usage of short TT helmets in mass-start events, during less important events it is less seen but come the World Championship or the Olympics and the use of short TT helmets goes up.

queerpunk 11-12-17 07:56 PM

what does this term "meta" mean in this context? i don't know this usage.

carleton 11-12-17 09:17 PM


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 19988771)
what does this term "meta" mean in this context? i don't know this usage.

Sorry. I learned this term from video gaming. I used to play video games competitively (as in esports). So, there is a lot of talk about techniques, strategies, loadouts (character weapon choices), etc...

The "meta" is the current "Best Practices" for the sport. For example, for track racing, some of the "new meta" for sprinting would include things like:

- Big gears for F200
- Double-disc for all time trials indoors.
- Longer cranks (for some)
- 33-37cm bars

"Old meta" would be:
- Spin to Win
- 38-40cm bars

So, when a new weapon or character is introduced to an esports game, there is a lot of chatter in the competitive community about whether the meta will change. "Will the new thing change how we've been doing things in the past. Is it better or worse?"

Another example: Felt introduced a high-end left-side drive bike for the Olympics, going against the meta of right-side drive. This did not seem to change the meta as there haven't been a big shift to LSD with cranks or hubs...but people wondered about it.

Godsight 11-12-17 09:18 PM

meta is the Most Effective Tactic Available, mainly used in video games context or strategy games. Also the proper spelling of esports has no capital letter in it and it's definitely not E-Sports :P

carleton 11-12-17 09:38 PM


Originally Posted by Godsight (Post 19988924)
meta is the Most Effective Tactic Available, mainly used in video games context or strategy games. Also the proper spelling of esports has no capital letter in it and it's definitely not E-Sports :P

HAHAHAHA. Thanks for the clarification! :thumb:

pierrej 11-12-17 09:48 PM

I'd imagine it wasn't necessarily the width that was the limiting factor, more the available hand position for the sling. Most of the narrower bars tend to be sprint oriented and obviously slope away from the clamp area, the alpina have more of this than most other narrow bars.
Also without any negative connotations, the bars are comparitively bigger for the women using them than they would be for their male counterparts.

carleton 11-12-17 09:52 PM


Originally Posted by pierrej (Post 19988973)
Also without any negative connotations, the bars are comparitively bigger for the women using them than they would be for their male counterparts.

It's not negative to say that women would likely have more narrow hands.

But those are both women's (blue/white) and men's (red/white) winning teams in the photos above.

pierrej 11-12-17 09:55 PM

So they are haha, I'd seen a few alpinas in the women's mass start races at the euro championships so it does look like a developing trend

tobukog 11-12-17 11:56 PM


Originally Posted by pierrej (Post 19988973)
I'd imagine it wasn't necessarily the width that was the limiting factor, more the available hand position for the sling. Most of the narrower bars tend to be sprint oriented and obviously slope away from the clamp area, the alpina have more of this than most other narrow bars.
Also without any negative connotations, the bars are comparitively bigger for the women using them than they would be for their male counterparts.

This. Wider bars are actually a disadvantage in a madison exchange.

carleton 11-13-17 12:44 AM


Originally Posted by tobukog (Post 19989098)
This. Wider bars are actually a disadvantage in a madison exchange.

No doubt.

But, Alpinas have no flat top. They are designed from the ground up as sprint bars without a nod to The Madison. The original Alpina sprint bars came in 38 and 40cm and were very similar to in shape, reach, and depth to Nitto B123 and Easton EC90. The 33cm bars showed up around the time Team GB was experimenting with gear AND they were still riding Dolan bikes. I think Hoy and/or Pendleton were the first to have some unbranded 33cm Alpinas. Methinks that Team GB asked Alpina to make them. Before that, Hoy was seen riding 34cm Nitto B123.

The reason I was told that road bars were preferred for the Madison is because riders wanted the wid flat/horizontal grip area for the left hand to hold on to for the exchange.

Apparently the amount of area needed for the left hand to grip isn't as much as people thought :D

EDIT:

Also, there's nothing like seeing people win with a novel idea that inspires others to try it as well. I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing more "super narrow" (not just narrow) bars in all levels in all events.

SyntaxMonstr 11-13-17 02:03 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 19988917)
Sorry. I learned this term from video gaming. I used to play video games competitively (as in esports). So, there is a lot of talk about techniques, strategies, loadouts (character weapon choices), etc...

The "meta" is the current "Best Practices" for the sport. For example, for track racing, some of the "new meta" for sprinting would include things like:

...

So, when a new weapon or character is introduced to an esports game, there is a lot of chatter in the competitive community about whether the meta will change. "Will the new thing change how we've been doing things in the past. Is it better or worse?"

Another example: Felt introduced a high-end left-side drive bike for the Olympics, going against the meta of right-side drive. This did not seem to change the meta as there haven't been a big shift to LSD with cranks or hubs...but people wondered about it.

As a former competitive gamer, I love everything about this post. :love:

tobukog 11-13-17 04:13 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 19989142)
No doubt.

But, Alpinas have no flat top. They are designed from the ground up as sprint bars without a nod to The Madison. The original Alpina sprint bars came in 38 and 40cm and were very similar to in shape, reach, and depth to Nitto B123 and Easton EC90. The 33cm bars showed up around the time Team GB was experimenting with gear AND they were still riding Dolan bikes. I think Hoy and/or Pendleton were the first to have some unbranded 33cm Alpinas. Methinks that Team GB asked Alpina to make them. Before that, Hoy was seen riding 34cm Nitto B123.

The reason I was told that road bars were preferred for the Madison is because riders wanted the wid flat/horizontal grip area for the left hand to hold on to for the exchange.

Apparently the amount of area needed for the left hand to grip isn't as much as people thought :D

EDIT:

Also, there's nothing like seeing people win with a novel idea that inspires others to try it as well. I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing more "super narrow" (not just narrow) bars in all levels in all events.

I think most Madison riders still prefer a flat horizontal grip. But it's a question of being able to adapt to inconveniences for a perceived advantage. A narrower bar is often preferable in a Madison in order to do a proper throw where you want the two riders as close as possible. That 2nd photo is pretty text book. It's not so good if it cuts down on stability by decreasing reach or makes the grip on the tops questionable. I've adapted to doing madison's on my scattos despite the questionable top section, but I would definitely prefer a different shape near the stem. It's an interesting idea.

seau grateau 11-13-17 05:20 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 19988917)
Another example: Felt introduced a high-end left-side drive bike for the Olympics, going against the meta of right-side drive. This did not seem to change the meta as there haven't been a big shift to LSD with cranks or hubs...but people wondered about it.

I remember reading that they were using a more narrow hub spacing on those bikes too, but haven't heard anything about that since.

topflightpro 11-13-17 07:55 AM


Originally Posted by tobukog (Post 19989233)
I think most Madison riders still prefer a flat horizontal grip. But it's a question of being able to adapt to inconveniences for a perceived advantage. A narrower bar is often preferable in a Madison in order to do a proper throw where you want the two riders as close as possible. That 2nd photo is pretty text book. It's not so good if it cuts down on stability by decreasing reach or makes the grip on the tops questionable. I've adapted to doing madison's on my scattos despite the questionable top section, but I would definitely prefer a different shape near the stem. It's an interesting idea.

Welcome back.

Did you see there is a Madison clinic at Rock Hill on Nov. 30. If the weather is good, I'm going to go down for it.

Banchad 11-13-17 04:23 PM

Looks like Planet X/Selcof are doing scatto knockoff's now.

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/HBSELV...rack-handlebar

ruudlaff 11-13-17 05:54 PM


Originally Posted by Banchad (Post 19990807)
Looks like Planet X/Selcof are doing scatto knockoff's now.

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/HBSELV...rack-handlebar

Already got them, were on sale at 89 last month. Really like them, ultra stiff

brawlo 11-13-17 06:53 PM


Originally Posted by Banchad (Post 19990807)
Looks like Planet X/Selcof are doing scatto knockoff's now.

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/HBSELV...rack-handlebar

I don't think I'd really call them a Scatto knock off. Their shape is fairly different in the drops area. The flat aero profile top seems to be about the only thing they share, but they share them with a whole array of other sprint style bars.

taras0000 11-13-17 07:10 PM


Originally Posted by brawlo (Post 19991119)
I don't think I'd really call them a Scatto knock off. Their shape is fairly different in the drops area. The flat aero profile top seems to be about the only thing they share, but they share them with a whole array of other sprint style bars.

I thought LOOK copy when I first saw them, the first gen LOOK sprint bars at least.

pierrej 11-13-17 07:17 PM


Originally Posted by tobukog (Post 19989233)
I think most Madison riders still prefer a flat horizontal grip. But it's a question of being able to adapt to inconveniences for a perceived advantage. A narrower bar is often preferable in a Madison in order to do a proper throw where you want the two riders as close as possible. That 2nd photo is pretty text book. It's not so good if it cuts down on stability by decreasing reach or makes the grip on the tops questionable. I've adapted to doing madison's on my scattos despite the questionable top section, but I would definitely prefer a different shape near the stem. It's an interesting idea.

You'll know more than I on the subject, but I'd imagine as long as you can fit a hand next to he stem there should be enough room for the throw.
Even with the narrow top on my nitto's I could probably make do, though I'd prefer the oversized alpina top or a lot of tape for my big mits

JimiMimni 11-13-17 10:39 PM


Originally Posted by seau grateau (Post 19989259)
I remember reading that they were using a more narrow hub spacing on those bikes too, but haven't heard anything about that since.

They do have goofy spacing. If you actually want/can pony up the money for the FRD version, it's sold with two wheelsets (training/racing) because of said proprietary hubs. They bike is pursuit only, according to everything I've heard with regards to riding it. They're apparently too soft for bunch races.

queerpunk 11-14-17 06:50 AM


Originally Posted by JimiMimni (Post 19991571)
They do have goofy spacing. If you actually want/can pony up the money for the FRD version, it's sold with two wheelsets (training/racing) because of said proprietary hubs. They bike is pursuit only, according to everything I've heard with regards to riding it. They're apparently too soft for bunch races.

I remember Felt saying that and thinking, how soft can they really be? They do need to handle starts without flexing the BB into the wheels, and Valente/Dygart/Hammer/Catlin ride their first kilo faster than a lot of racers can kilo. And Lea rode one in the Olympics too - he's huge, and powerful. I'm sure they made some sacrifices in the design, but I'm guessing the "TT use only" designation is as much due to Felt not making a stem for it that accommodates a drop bar as it is whatever stiffness/narrowness tradeoffs they made. TT integration only.

All speculation though. Haven't heard feedback from any of its users.

Poppit 11-14-17 11:18 AM

Sir Chris Hoy interview: GB icon on the cut-throat world of elite sport, personal sacrifices and life after the track - Mirror Online

carleton 11-14-17 02:51 PM

In the book Heroes Villains and Velodromes , Hoy is quoted as saying that he trains even on Christmas day. Why? Because he assumes that his competition is taking the day off and every little advantage helps. That's the state of mind that it takes to accomplish what he's accomplished.

Team GB even had a Sports Psychologist on staff to help the team deal with the mental stress of training, racing, and personal life. It worked. I believe his name was Dr. Steve Peters.


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