Bike Forums

Bike Forums (https://www.bikeforums.net/forum.php)
-   Classic & Vintage (https://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php?f=181)
-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

gster 03-28-21 05:24 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 21988451)
Maybe using two sprockets in the back on the existing AW along with a derailer is easier than I think it is.

It can be done as well as a rear derailleur as the other option. They were a popular option in the late 50's/early 60's.
There's a guy on this forum from Bellville (I think) who built a nice one last year and posted pictures/progress etc.
There's math involved as well with sprocket teeth etc.
I tried to do one last year and messed up and broke
some spokes in the back wheel when the derailleur travelled to far.
I gave up but would like to try again.
I did buy a Cyclo derailleur recently and would
like to install.
Looks similar to this one
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c88c6f3586.jpg

thumpism 03-28-21 06:01 PM

Not mine. Very reasonable price.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...70829760232866

https://scontent.fric1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...dc&oe=60881796

rhenning 03-28-21 07:05 PM

There were some questions. When I did mine I got the shifters and derailleurs from an early 10 speed that an older kid broke the frame on. They were French manufactured with the rear being a Huret Allvet and the front ???? I know that is spelled wrong but I was 14 and am now 72. Surprisingly it actually shifted the wider 3 speed chain. At that age I didn't know there were different chains. Again from memory the rear sprockets were a 19 and 16. 2 SA sprockets fit on the hub if you left the spacers (washers) out and put the offsets on the sprockets so the big one faced to the center and the small one faced out. Roger

clubman 03-28-21 07:32 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 21988451)
Maybe using two sprockets in the back on the existing AW along with a derailer is easier than I think it is.

Hybrid IGH-derailleur conversions never really caught on for any period in time. They were often fussy and heavy. I'd try to persuade Max that an FW with a large cog is the best way to meet his needs and keeps the bikes character. He doesn't want to muck about with the hybrid, seeing as he doesn't pay attention to the rear spread on his bikes. You'd want to be hands-on. Or have his good friend Paul service it for him. ;)

paulb_in_bkln 03-28-21 07:53 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 21989446)
Or have his good friend Paul service it for him. ;)

Oh god. No good deed goes unpunished, does it?
PS Brompton seem to have made good use of the compound drive train trick.Few others, though.

clubman 03-28-21 08:08 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 21989485)
Oh god. No good deed goes unpunished, does it?
PS Brompton seem to have made good use of the compound drive train trick.Few others, though.

I'd like to try an updated drivetrain. I really didn't like the only SA conversion I encountered.

browngw 03-28-21 09:43 PM

This past December I was gifted a made in Italy Milano step through. It was pointed out to me that it used the wider chain like our three speeds. The first I had seen. Its a weird but somewhat fetching bike that could be restored or repurposed. Perhaps next winter.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7785aa8f10.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...df6ac633b7.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...67bcf595b9.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2fb44d7eb3.jpg

paulb_in_bkln 03-29-21 06:15 AM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 21989604)
This past December I was gifted a made in Italy Milano step through. It was pointed out to me that it used the wider chain like our three speeds. The first I had seen. Its a weird but somewhat fetching bike that could be restored or repurposed. Perhaps next winter.

The black Simplex derailer gives a pretty good idea when it was made. I dunno. Asia has so completely taken over the production of bike frames that I think almost anything made somewhere else is worth preserving, and this one has some nice chrome and that low mixte configuration is something you don't see every day.

paulb_in_bkln 03-29-21 07:43 AM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 21989604)
This past December I was gifted a made in Italy Milano step through. It was pointed out to me that it used the wider chain like our three speeds. The first I had seen. Its a weird but somewhat fetching bike that could be restored or repurposed. Perhaps next winter.

Those plastic grips are so ubiquitous. My ladies' Sports arrived with them and I've never thought to replace them. The Rivendell folks seem to love them, although they cover them with padding and weird stuff.

paulb_in_bkln 03-29-21 07:45 AM

Can an FW hub be used without the correct SA four speed shifter? I ask only because it almost seems easier to find the hub at a reasonable price than a working SA trigger shifter.

clubman 03-29-21 07:59 AM

No but there's more of them out there than you think. Many older triggers were designed for 3 or 4 speeds.

paulb_in_bkln 03-29-21 08:10 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 21989961)
No but there's more of them out there than you think. Many older triggers were designed for 3 or 4 speeds.

So SA's shifters for their current 4 speeds don't pull the right length of cable for the old models. Shucks.

clubman 03-29-21 08:27 AM

Sorry, no I wasn't saying that. I'm so stuck in the past, I didn't even know there were new 4 speed hubs and shifters available. Someone else know the answer?

paulb_in_bkln 03-29-21 08:44 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 21990005)
Sorry, no I wasn't saying that. I'm so stuck in the past, I didn't even know there were new 4 speed hubs and shifters available. Someone else know the answer?

The new hubs use a rotary shifter on the hub, not the pull chain, so it's probably too much to ask for. Maybe I'll drop them a line and ask.

cszipper 03-29-21 08:52 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 21988373)
Is there a reasonably simple way to do this? I canít think of it. We might be able to find an old FW or S5 hub and shifter and have a new wheel built or swap the internals into the existing hub shell. But here in the USA, those hubs and 4 speed shifters are hard to come by. Max might also be dubious about spending on such old parts. I'd have to find out. ... Or add an extra sprocket and derailer to the existing AW hub. But thatís hardware from the old days. Again, very hard to find all that in the USA.
This one has me scratching my head.

At various times, I've swapped S5 hub guts and used the 3 cog Cyclo cluster and Benelux derailer to add gear range to my bikes. As you say, the toughest part of the job is finding the old parts. With parts in hand, both are easy to set up, and, I suspect, would be cheaper than having a whole new wheel built. I prefer the S5 conversion, and that is what I still have, but had no problems with the derailer either.

For the S5 conversion all you need to convert (aside from the hub) is a shifter for the left side of the hub, cable, and assorted cable stops/pulleys. You can swap the guts of the hub into your existing wheel as a unit. If the left side bellcrank is missing you can save some money by adapting the bellcrank from a Shimano 333 hub to fit instead of buying the pricey SA part. A nice feature of the S5 hub is that all of the common wear parts (bearing surfaces, clutch, pawls, etc...) interchange with the AW. This was fortunate for me, since both of my S5s came from junkyard bikes and had suffered badly from water intrusion.

The only tricky part of the derailer conversion was adjusting the chain guard so that it didn't rub when I was on the outer cogs in the cluster. I think I had to bend it a bit, but didn't have to cut anything. On a newer frame with the brazed on chainguard mounts this might be tougher to set up. I used the Cyclo 3 cog cluster and Benelux pull-chain derailer and they mounted up and worked fine. My Cyclo cluster was slightly wider than the hub driver, so I had to add a small spacer spacer to each side of the hub axle in order to make enough room on the drive side and keep the wheel centered. I don't think you'd have to do this if you used the 2 back-to-back SA cogs mentioned above by another poster.

-Carl

paulb_in_bkln 03-29-21 09:13 AM


Originally Posted by cszipper (Post 21990075)
At various times, I've swapped S5 hub guts and used the 3 cog Cyclo cluster and Benelux derailer to add gear range to my bikes. As you say, the toughest part of the job is finding the old parts. With parts in hand, both are easy to set up, and, I suspect, would be cheaper than having a whole new wheel built. I prefer the S5 conversion, and that is what I still have, but had no problems with the derailer either...
-Carl

All great information. I have so many AWs that I have lifted off derelict street bikes, but despite keeping my eye peeled, I have never come across a four or five speed.

gster 03-29-21 09:47 AM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 21989321)

That is a good deal.
And a Rudge!

thumpism 03-29-21 10:14 AM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 21989604)
This past December I was gifted a made in Italy Milano step through. It was pointed out to me that it used the wider chain like our three speeds. The first I had seen. Its a weird but somewhat fetching bike that could be restored or repurposed. Perhaps next winter.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...67bcf595b9.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2fb44d7eb3.jpg

Neat, a Berceau ("cradle") frame. I got a similar Chiorda in '83 that I built up into an MTB for my then-girlfriend, now wife. We sold it twice; once to a friend for his daughter and he gave it back when she grew out of it, and again to a guy who wanted the drum-brake wheels for a project. I also gave him the original fork so he could return it to roadbikehood. That Thun bottom bracket likely has originally-painted-and-never-used Italian threading behind those press-in cups.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...07a41d6be6.jpg

I have seen 1/2" x 1/8" chain on a derailleur bike but only on a three- or four-speed cluster. My little 500A Flandria had that.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...18dabb9d14.jpg

paulb_in_bkln 03-29-21 03:49 PM

Two word answer from Sun Race USA whether one of the current four-speed shifters will work with a vintage hub like the FW. "Sorry, no."

cudak888 03-29-21 05:03 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 21990784)
Two word answer from Sun Race USA whether one of the current four-speed shifters will work with a vintage hub like the FW. "Sorry, no."

Some more words about that: Find out how much cable pull is required, and then laser-cut a replacement notch assembly for a SRAM rebuildable trigger shifter to pull and latch the correct spacing.

-Kurt

gster 03-29-21 05:12 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 21990784)
Two word answer from Sun Race USA whether one of the current four-speed shifters will work with a vintage hub like the FW. "Sorry, no."

The 3/4 speed triggers were produced in the thousands.
They're out there and quite nicely designed.
Ask around, LBS, Community bike shops etc.
Stay away from ebay/crazy prices.

Ghostknife 03-29-21 05:19 PM

So, Iím at a loss, where the heck does this thing go? Lol, Iíve looked at a bunch of diagrams and videos and canít find one that has this spacer. Iím thinking someone had this hub apart since some things werenít in correctly based off of what Iíve seen. I also am missing the smaller washers, #4 in the diagram.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2e6e5a9d8.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b481a91dc.jpeg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...51020470b.jpeg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9ccec2078.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...677f4ce9b0.png

gster 03-29-21 05:39 PM

Looks like a #4 from the diagram but from a Dynohub.....
Should still work.

cudak888 03-29-21 09:21 PM

Newish SA left-hand axle spacer, before they changed to thick left-hand nuts.

-Kurt

Ghostknife 03-30-21 04:50 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21990876)
Looks like a #4 from the diagram but from a Dynohub.....
Should still work.

Thatís weird! Wonder why itís on here lol


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 21991155)
Newish SA left-hand axle spacer, before they changed to thick left-hand nuts.

-Kurt

ok thanks, what numbers would this piece fall between? Iím going to go to the local store and get some washers to replace #4 I think today, I couldnít get the wheel in with the thick space in the mix.


EDIT: Iím a dummy, got it figured out! Thanks


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:58 AM.


Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.