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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

ridesoldtrek 12-05-05 09:04 AM

I think you guys are being a little sensitive about this.

Lotek, I think your observation about the TPI and general quality of tubulars is on the mark. Whether its tubulars or clinchers, construction, materials, and build quality can make a huge difference. I think that's what people are generally feeling. A low grade tubular feels pretty much like your run of the mill clincher.
I rode some pretty low grade tubulars and some good ones, there was a noticable difference between the two.

by the way, I mis-spoke on the "tension" in a rim - meant to say compression.

peripatetic 12-05-05 11:48 AM

I'm not really sensitive about it: I've never even ridden a tubular; but lotek has it right when he talks about brandt's rants &c. It really is a thread with info on tubulars, not a "mythbusters" challenge. If you want one of those, start your own thread, us pupils have already taken on the base assumption; 's why we're here.

mollusk 12-05-05 12:22 PM


Originally Posted by cyclezen
I was duly advised by the 'old guyz' that my white cotton gym sock was unacceptable as a tire sock. They said go 'naked' or 'figure it out'. So I took one of my old black nylon dress socks... got the thumbs up for that. Added bonus was I could put in some change for an ice cream bar - never occurred to me in some 2 years of ridin with a bare tire strapped under the seat. Since my parents didn't/don't drive, callin for a pickup was never an option. But a good choco eclair after a nice ride, primo!
... now I have to carry readin glasses in the sock... :(

Of course the sock has to be dark. The sock will get dirty and greasy and a dark sock hides it.

luker 12-05-05 07:04 PM

wow. I looooove to start a good argu, unh, discussion. I am prowling around for a portable linear accelerometer. When I find one, I'll put it in a backpack, go riding on tires of many types, and post the scientifically supported results on this forum. Until then, I'll continue to line my helmet with tinfoil so that the thought police cannot monitor my thoughts.

USAZorro 12-05-05 07:22 PM


Originally Posted by ridesoldtrek
I think you guys are being a little sensitive about this.

Lotek, I think your observation about the TPI and general quality of tubulars is on the mark. Whether its tubulars or clinchers, construction, materials, and build quality can make a huge difference. I think that's what people are generally feeling. A low grade tubular feels pretty much like your run of the mill clincher.
I rode some pretty low grade tubulars and some good ones, there was a noticable difference between the two.

by the way, I mis-spoke on the "tension" in a rim - meant to say compression.

I agree with your statements on this post. What bugged me about the previous one was the matter-of-fact dismissal of Luker's supposition, without explanation. I also don't buy that a well built tubular wheelsets are less suited to rough surfaces than clinchers (Fiamme w/ Paris-Roubaix?). Perhaps the lightest ones aren't well suited for them, but there are suitable rims that will be lighter and have a bit more "give" than clincher rims. A minimal factor, behind TPI, Tire Size and Tire Pressure? Yes. However one that I wouldn't be so quick to dimisses a very discerning rider being able to feel in certain circumstances.

fwiw - there have been posters here who swear that there's no difference in feel between steel and aluminum frames (on the Road Cycling forum). I know those fellows are in denial. :)

Chongo 12-05-05 10:17 PM


Originally Posted by lotek
wildjim,

If your are messing in Baltimore I might choose a heavier tire than the
sprinters.
I think the Tufo Elite is pretty good, however they are not repairable
so the idea of sewing by the side of the road isn't an option.
I don't like the tufo sealant, leaks at about 90 psi. I've been using
Rock n' Roll Tube Spooge. similiar stuff but will not ooze out up till
about 115psi (reported, I haven't needed it).
They are mountable with regular glue, just scrape the basetape a little
to remove the sealant (like the veloflex tubulars).

come on, you know you want to do it.

I've been using Tufo S3 lites (215 grams) for racing and training for about 4 years, and I've found that the sealant works great to at least 150 psi. It doesn't work on anything bigger than 2mm. Unfortunately, the tire is toast at that point; Fortunately, that doesn't happen very often. Overall, I flat far less often than my friends on clinchers.

cyclezen 12-06-05 12:38 PM


Originally Posted by ridesoldtrek
Thank you to Lotek and whoever suggested this forum on tubulars. I still have an old set of sew-up wheels but don't ride them anymore. I rode sew-ups for about 10 years, starting in 1972 when I traded my Schwinn Varsity for a really cool new Gitane Interclub - a low-end racy version of the old Grand Sport which was very popular in SE Wisconsin in those days. ...

I really appreciate all the advice and experience people are sharing - back when I was riding them, I was not very sophisticated, even though I patched and sewed them until I was sick of it, there wasn't much of a network for this kind of knowledge, and we muddled our way through things.

As for those that say they ride smoother - hmm, with all due respect I think that's nostalgia or elitism or style-addiction or something else fogging your judgement. Look closely at the mechanics and physics of the question. I just don't buy it. But I suppose if you close your eyes, click your brake levers three times and really believe....

Then within the 'intent' of this thread, which is to 'support' info about sewups, it might be appropriate to respect that, do some personal 'housekeeping' and REMOVE your own posts that offer nothing of positive substance. Would be nice for others who 'littered' to do the same.
Wanna discourse the merits of sewups, solids, clinchers or moonboots - start another thread
I'll remove this 'reply' once it seems others have gotten smart enough to figure it out...

jim-bob 12-06-05 12:52 PM

Does anyone have any recommendations for knobby sew-ups? I'm building up a sort of scary cyclocross bike, and am thinking about going to tubies.

ridesoldtrek 12-08-05 12:12 AM


Originally Posted by USAZorro
I agree with your statements on this post. What bugged me about the previous one was the matter-of-fact dismissal of Luker's supposition, without explanation. I also don't buy that a well built tubular wheelsets are less suited to rough surfaces than clinchers (Fiamme w/ Paris-Roubaix?). Perhaps the lightest ones aren't well suited for them, but there are suitable rims that will be lighter and have a bit more "give" than clincher rims. A minimal factor, behind TPI, Tire Size and Tire Pressure? Yes. However one that I wouldn't be so quick to dimisses a very discerning rider being able to feel in certain circumstances.

Yes, I agree I was kind or short in my reply. No disrespect intended, just a bit of poor judgement on my part. Luker did have some very good observations about the basic differences between clincher and tubular rim construction, which may make a difference, I just didn't happen to agree.

Zorro, my contention was about the tires themselves, not the rims/wheelsets, but again, this is my opinion. Having not ridden tubulars for many years now, I may not be up to speed on what is available today.

I think if we're all honest about the posts here, we'll recognize that much of it is opinion afterall, some of it may be correct, and some not. Hopefully people will feel free to express opinions, popular or otherwise. I fully expect to see, and welcome, opinions that differ from mine.

peripatetic 12-08-05 04:57 PM


Originally Posted by jim-bob
Does anyone have any recommendations for knobby sew-ups? I'm building up a sort of scary cyclocross bike, and am thinking about going to tubies.


Awesome. Do they exist? What about tubular knobbies on a fixed gear wheel for winter riding, hmm...

jim-bob 12-08-05 05:10 PM


Originally Posted by peripatetic
Awesome. Do they exist? What about tubular knobbies on a fixed gear wheel for winter riding, hmm...

Yeah, I've seen a bunch of 'em on ebay and the like, but was hoping to get feedback from people who've used them.

(And yeah, fixed is a definite consideration for this one.)

Fred Smedley 12-08-05 05:48 PM

Has anyone tried these?

Vredestein Volante Pro Tricomp Tubular Tires- advertised as a 285 gram training-budget race tire.

USAZorro 12-08-05 08:24 PM


Originally Posted by ridesoldtrek
Yes, I agree I was kind or short in my reply. No disrespect intended, just a bit of poor judgement on my part. Luker did have some very good observations about the basic differences between clincher and tubular rim construction, which may make a difference, I just didn't happen to agree.

Zorro, my contention was about the tires themselves, not the rims/wheelsets, but again, this is my opinion. Having not ridden tubulars for many years now, I may not be up to speed on what is available today.

I think if we're all honest about the posts here, we'll recognize that much of it is opinion afterall, some of it may be correct, and some not. Hopefully people will feel free to express opinions, popular or otherwise. I fully expect to see, and welcome, opinions that differ from mine.

No worries. I agree with you on the tires. For me the advantages have outweighed the inconveniences.

Opinions are formed based on expectations and perceptions, and since "perception is reality"...

cyclodan 12-10-05 11:37 PM


Originally Posted by peripatetic
Awesome. Do they exist? What about tubular knobbies on a fixed gear wheel for winter riding, hmm...

Not only do they exist they are the choice of the pros. But you better break into the piggy bank!

http://www.store.yahoo.com/cyclocros.../tubulars.html

San Rensho 12-11-05 06:47 PM


Originally Posted by lotek
personally believe the ride has more to do with
TPI of good tubulars than anything else, good tubulars
just seem to glide over road imperfections.
now, this thread is about tubulars, sewups, singles or whatever you
want to call em.
Don't like em? don't read the thread
this isn't about opinions, physics of tubulars vs clinchers,
jobst brandt's rants etc. it is about the joy of riding a
good tubular and tips on maintenace, storage etc.

marty

Another consideration in ride quality is the fact that clinchers, since they have a bead that grabs a rim edge to stay seated, has to have very stiff sidewalls compared to sew ups which have very flexible sidewalls because of their round cross section.

This means that when leaned over hard in a corner, the sew up will flex and soak up imperfections in the road, while a clincher will not and have more of a tendency to slide.

luker 12-11-05 09:04 PM


Originally Posted by cyclodan
Not only do they exist they are the choice of the pros. But you better break into the piggy bank!

http://www.store.yahoo.com/cyclocros.../tubulars.html

oh, yeah. if you have a great big piggy bank, go for the Dugast'. Get a couple for your mountain bike while you are at it.

sykerocker 12-31-05 01:04 PM

If your seriously into tubulars, the best thing you can possibly have is a LOT of old warped tubular rims hanging around. Back when I rode them, I had seven dead rims, every one storing a spare tyre.

Now that I'm about to get back on them, I gotta start looking for trash rims again.

Syke
Deranged Few M/C

lotek 12-31-05 07:56 PM

syke,

I found alot of old tubular rims at LBS in the back room, no one wants
to ride them and they were happy to sell them to me cheap (got
a pair clement paris roubaix tires thrown in too!). Best deal I found
were some undrilled rims for $10 a pair that I bought for stretching tires.

marty

wildjim 01-03-06 08:35 PM

I do not understand the need to stretch the tire over time. I haven't used old rims to stretch the tires.

I've always been able to put a new tire on the rim without too much trouble and minimal stretching by hand while mounting the tire.

The act of stretching the tire during storage seems foolish to me as it would cause a loose fit on the rim when needed.

luker 01-03-06 09:00 PM

You won't stretch it that much. what stretching does, mostly, is give you a little clearance so that you don't make a huge mess on the sidewall when you put the glued tire on. storing good tubulars on a rim is also a good idea, as folded tires will eventually crack at the sharpest point of the fold. I don't have any good tubulars, so I don't worry about it too much...

wildjim 01-04-06 03:00 AM


Originally Posted by luker
You won't stretch it that much. what stretching does, mostly, is give you a little clearance so that you don't make a huge mess on the sidewall when you put the glued tire on. storing good tubulars on a rim is also a good idea, as folded tires will eventually crack at the sharpest point of the fold. I don't have any good tubulars, so I don't worry about it too much...

Per instructions the glue is left on the tire and rim about 20 minutes after the initial application to dry to a tack then the tire is mounted so there is no mess on the side wall of the rim.

Perhaps storing a sharply folded tire is not a good idea; but stretching during storage seems like a worse idea. It is not wise to ride on a overly stretched loosely fitted tubular tire.

A spare spoked wheel may be useful to check repaired tubular tires as the tire should not be inflated without the support of a spoked wheel.

None of my folded spare tires have cracked while stored in the seat pack.

Perhaps your tires were affected by something else; such as direct sunlight or open air and changing temperatures.

I store my new unused tires loosely across two pegs in the basement. It's cool and dry in the basement and no direct sunlight shines on the stored tires. This method has worked for years without any problems.

USAZorro 01-04-06 08:58 AM


Originally Posted by wildjim
Per instructions the glue is left on the tire and rim about 20 minutes after the initial application to dry to a tack then the tire is mounted so there is no mess on the side wall of the rim.

Perhaps storing a sharply folded tire is not a good idea; but stretching during storage seems like a worse idea. It is not wise to ride on a overly stretched loosely fitted tubular tire.

A spare spoked wheel may be useful to check repaired tubular tires as the tire should not be inflated without the support of a spoked wheel.

None of my folded spare tires have cracked while stored in the seat pack.

Perhaps your tires were affected by something else; such as direct sunlight or open air and changing temperatures.

I store my new unused tires loosely across two pegs in the basement. It's cool and dry in the basement and no direct sunlight shines on the stored tires. This method has worked for years without any problems.

As with many things, there are many ways of preparing and mounting tubular tires that will work fine. I employ a stretching technique, and others don't. I'm not saying this is the right way to do it, but it works for me.

From my somewhat limited experience, I've found that some models of tires are tighter than others. There's no way that I'd have been able to mount the batch of Futurox tires I've gotten without stretching them first. The way I do it follows the advice I was given by a real old-timer (a former six-day racer). I put some air in the tires (minimal pressure) and let them sit for a few days. Then, I deflate, and put them on a wheel that I'm not using, and pump them to about 40 psi. Then I hang the wheel up. The tire will subsequently lose air over time, and this is ok. Nothing bad comes of this. Think about it, the higher pressure on the tire after it gets mounted will press on all directions, holding the tire more firmly against the rim.

What are the advantages of this? Well, by "stretching" the tires, I've trained them to live with the stem pointing in, and I've ensured that I can improve my vocabulary when the time comes to actually install them. I don't have a long record of success, but I can say, "so far, so good".

wildjim 01-04-06 12:12 PM


Originally Posted by USAZorro
As with many things, there are many ways of preparing and mounting tubular tires that will work fine. I employ a stretching technique, and others don't. I'm not saying this is the right way to do it, but it works for me.

From my somewhat limited experience, I've found that some models of tires are tighter than others. There's no way that I'd have been able to mount the batch of Futurox tires I've gotten without stretching them first. The way I do it follows the advice I was given by a real old-timer (a former six-day racer). I put some air in the tires (minimal pressure) and let them sit for a few days. Then, I deflate, and put them on a wheel that I'm not using, and pump them to about 40 psi. Then I hang the wheel up. The tire will subsequently lose air over time, and this is ok. Nothing bad comes of this. Think about it, the higher pressure on the tire after it gets mounted will press on all directions, holding the tire more firmly against the rim.

What are the advantages of this? Well, by "stretching" the tires, I've trained them to live with the stem pointing in, and I've ensured that I can improve my vocabulary when the time comes to actually install them. I don't have a long record of success, but I can say, "so far, so good".

I've read and it makes sense that you should not inflate a tubular tire unless it's on a wheel as the case may be damaged because it has nothing to compress against and will stretch and tear the casing.

I guess everyone does have their way of doing things; but it must require at least three days before you can mount the tire with your procedure or you have a lot of tires being prepared in waiting.

As for me I put the tire on immediately and only have a few spares; mostly because I buy a few at a time if the deal is right.

All the tubular tires I've ever used mounted on the wheel with the stem pointing down properly. No training required. . .

USAZorro 01-04-06 11:39 PM


Originally Posted by wildjim
. . . I guess everyone does have their way of doing things; but it must require at least three days before you can mount the tire with your procedure or you have a lot of tires being prepared in waiting. . .

Actually, it takes about a week if I don't rush it. I could put one on the same day I get it, but this is my preference. I have a couple extra wheelsets and have about 5 spare tires ready at this point. After I build up my next bike, I'll be down to 3 spares, and I figure this is about right for three bikes running tubulars. From there, all I have to do is look for the occasional good deal to maintain stock.

Bob S. 01-05-06 07:29 AM

The method Zorro describes is essentially the same method that I have used over the years. It also works well for me. To me, perhaps it is becuase I am all thumbs, mounting an unstreached spare quickly and neatly on the road ride is easy with a streached tire. With an unstreached tire, it can either be neat or quick, but not both. This method has worked well for me as in 30 years of rinding tubulars I have only rolled one tire, & that was entirely my fault, not the tire's. Bob

wildjim 01-05-06 09:57 AM


Originally Posted by Bob S.
The method Zorro describes is essentially the same method that I have used over the years. It also works well for me. To me, perhaps it is becuase I am all thumbs, mounting an unstreached spare quickly and neatly on the road ride is easy with a streached tire. With an unstreached tire, it can either be neat or quick, but not both. This method has worked well for me as in 30 years of rinding tubulars I have only rolled one tire, & that was entirely my fault, not the tire's. Bob

I don't understand all the fuss as it has always been easy for me to mount a new tubular tire on the rim.

Some glue gets on my finger tips but it's a small amount and easily removed.

I could maybe understand a woman or someone with small hands and lack of physical strength may not be able to mount a new tubular tire.

Maybe it's the brand of tire used. I use Vittoria CX, Continental Sprinter and Challenge tubular tires.

USAZorro 01-05-06 11:52 AM


Originally Posted by wildjim
I don't understand all the fuss as it has always been easy for me to mount a new tubular tire on the rim.

Some glue gets on my finger tips but it's a small amount and easily removed.

I could maybe understand a woman or someone with small hands and lack of physical strength may not be able to mount a new tubular tire.

Maybe it's the brand of tire used. I use Vittoria CX, Continental Sprinter and Challenge tubular tires.

I suspect it's the brand/model. I've had some that went on quite easily. My Vittorias went on quite easily. My Clement Futurox - well, they put up quite a struggle.

wildjim 01-05-06 12:10 PM


Originally Posted by USAZorro
I suspect it's the brand/model. I've had some that went on quite easily. My Vittorias went on quite easily. My Clement Futurox - well, they put up quite a struggle.

Vittoria Rally tubulars are manageable; but stiff as a brick. I am not likely to purchase them again any time soon.

lotek 01-05-06 02:02 PM

Conti Sprinters and Competitions go on quite nicely.
Prestretched Clement Paris Roubaix go on, like buttah. . .
I would imagine the Rally's could use a good stretch.

Marty

Bob S. 01-05-06 03:08 PM


Originally Posted by wildjim
I don't understand all the fuss as it has always been easy for me to mount a new tubular tire on the rim.

Some glue gets on my finger tips but it's a small amount and easily removed.

I could maybe understand a woman or someone with small hands and lack of physical strength may not be able to mount a new tubular tire.

Maybe it's the brand of tire used. I use Vittoria CX, Continental Sprinter and Challenge tubular tires.


When I am on the road, I don't want to be wasting 20 min. waiting for glue to tack. It is too easy not to pre-streach & pre-inflate. I think I can still pretty quick @ changing a tubular. Personally, I would rather tinker with my toys in the garage while drinking a beer & relaxing, vic on the road.

I doubt that it is the hand size/strength thing you mentioned either. While my upper body strength isn't what it was in my prime, it ain't bad either.

Different strokes for different folk. Just my $02. Bob


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