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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

clubman 08-16-18 04:21 PM

I agree with your estimate. I'm knocking a big discount off as a women's frame. Men's frame at $250, definitely.

Buellster 08-16-18 05:10 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20509198)
Since they are expensive, I would use a dedicated 4 speed shifter unless someone here has experience using an early 3 or 4 speed shifter with a later FW hub and found it reliable.


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 20509879)
Either shifter will work. I'd go with the one that matches the period of the frame. The cable is best adjusted by putting the shifter in low, and then setting the cable so the toggle chain is all the way out of the hub but no more. That's all the tension you need! If set that way, all the other gears will be there for you. Its a bit tricky sometimes getting into low until you get the hang of it.

Nervar made a pretty cool crank called the Sport that was a steel cottered crank with alloy chainrings...

Thanks you two!
My inclination was definitely to go with the dedicated 4 speed, both because it is from the same period and would likley be the most compatible and because I would imagine that a shifter built only for 4 speeds is better suited for them.

Those cranks and chainrings do look nice Salubrious but I think I'm sticking with my lambert cranks and my 52 tooth cog. I think I can get it shined up pretty nice.

I've been thinking I should put some oil into the FW before I get it built into the wheel. If its truly never been used, which seems to be the case, I imagine its dry in there. Which may be a blessing since that also means no ancient grease.
Should I just fill it to the brim and let the excess leak for a few days before I get it built into the wheel?
On the note of oil I'm thinking the sports could probably use some too....

BigChief 08-16-18 05:50 PM

Since the 3 or 4 speed shifter works, the only issue would be the cable ferrule. The older shifters have a threaded hole for a threaded ferrule and the later shifters (after 1963 or so) have a keyhole slot for ball end ferrules.
edit:
I may be wrong about this. I've never had a later 4 speed trigger. It may be that only the later style 3 speed triggers got the keyhole connection. Here's a late 60s or 70s 4 speed trigger and it still has the threaded hole.
70s 4 speed trigger

Buellster 08-16-18 10:56 PM

The cable that came in the box has this end on it.
I'm thinking this is the ball end style?
I'm glad you pointed that out because I didnt realize that more than one type existed haha
I'll have to be careful which type I buy.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ae5ac011c7.jpg

BigChief 08-17-18 02:48 AM

This is the ferrule you'll need for a threaded shifter. Both cable ends should be like the second picture, although this is one I made myself from 3/32" brass tubing. Back when this picture was taken I silver soldered the ends on, but now I glue them on with JB Weld. I don't have a picture of a factory shifter cable handy.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cba8abf797.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...39449b6fdb.jpg

BigChief 08-17-18 03:12 AM

I forgot...Many of the newer replacement shifter cables come with pinch bolt adapters with a barrel nut that connects to the indicator chain at the hub instead of the older style which had the little sausage ends directly into the barrel adjuster. They still need the sausage end to fit into the shifter though. I do have a complaint about some of these replacement cables. The end for the shifter is a piece of tubing crimped onto the cable end and sometimes they're too fat to fit well in the notch in the shifter cam. Sometimes they will get stuck halfway into the notch. Then after you think you have the cable adjusted correctly, they'll slip further down leaving you wondering why the cable went slack. Sloppy work. Also, I don't care for the clunky pinch bolt adapters either. That's why I make my own. It's more trouble to fit them correctly, but they look much cleaner.
Ah, found something for ya. This cable was designed to handle anything you throw at it. You would need cable cutters. It has the threaded ferrule. The cable and housing are longer than you'll need, so no matter which routing you choose, it will work. It has a Shimano end on one side, a Sturmey Archer sausage end at the other and a pinch bolt adapter for the hub.
universal cable

nlerner 08-17-18 04:37 AM


Originally Posted by Buellster (Post 20511008)
The cable that came in the box has this end on it.
I'm thinking this is the ball end style?
I'm glad you pointed that out because I didnt realize that more than one type existed haha
I'll have to be careful which type I buy.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ae5ac011c7.jpg

I believe that style of barrel is for a twist-grip shifter.

thumpism 08-17-18 05:21 AM

Shimano 3-speed shifter takes the barrel end, while Sturmey 3-speed takes the much thinner sleeve end shown in BigChief's photo.

BigChief 08-17-18 07:32 AM

I'm only going from that eBay ad since I've never had a 4 speed shifter, but everything about that one looks 70s to me. Unless someone here knows differently, I'm going to say that any 3 or 4 and 4 speed SA shifters will require the threaded end ferrule. So, what he will need is: The shifter, an inner cable with the small end to fit the shifter, a length of housing with a threaded ferrule to go from the shifter to a top tube mounted fulcrum clip, a seat tube mounted guide wheel and a pinch bolt adapter to connect the cable to the indicator chain.

Buellster 08-17-18 07:44 AM

Well that is just a danm shame. Here I thought the box would have everything I needed but the shifter. Turns out its missing something else quite important.
this is the full cable, it does have the screw on adjuster but then the other end is as shown. So what this guy just tossed in a shimano cable and called it a day?
Thanks for finding that universal cable!
would it be too thick for the standard roller runners one mounts on the rear triangle?
Is there an advantage to the tensioning nut as opposed to the original style? I don't mind upgrading if it's a good change but I also have seem some simailry priced period cables. Like I said beforeI want to use what will work the best more than I'm trying to keep it period.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...06d567634e.jpg

BigChief 08-17-18 08:23 AM

It's worse than that. You will also need 2 anti-rotation washers to mate the axle flats on the hub to the dropouts on the Harding. These might have to be custom made if regular Sturmey Archer washers don't work. Looks like you need axle nuts too and I don't see a fulcrum clip in the photo. You would need a fulcrum clip the correct size to fit your top tube. Maybe someone here who has done this sort of conversion could help with the anti-rotation washer issue. I've never done this, so I don't know.
anti rotation washers

Buellster 08-17-18 08:56 AM

This picture is everything in the box.
I am certiantly missing the lock nuts. My LBS does sell new stock SA parts but I'm unsure if they would work for this project.
I'm starting to wonder if I should just start with a simpler 3 speed conversion and save this 4 speed hub for when I have more parts and experience at my disposal.
Edit:
I mean to say a 3 speed, or even a 5 speed conversion would be more cost effective. Maybe not simpler, but cheaper and easier to get a hold of parts for.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1dee7d5e01.jpg

BigChief 08-17-18 09:40 AM

Lots of people here have done this sort of project. It would be good to hear what they have to say. I wish I could be more helpful. But it is true, you are missing parts. Along with whatever cog you choose, It looks like you will also need 2 spacer rings and the circlip that holds the cog. I know, the list keeps getting longer, but I think that's about everything and it is a worthy project.

Buellster 08-17-18 10:40 AM

You have been immensely helpful BigChief!
I may post a new thread and see if I can bring in any of those 4 speeders.
I do still want to do this. It seems I'm missing the smaller bits and if I can find those parts at a not insane markup I'm still in.

Salubrious 08-17-18 11:38 AM


Originally Posted by Buellster (Post 20510540)
Thanks you two!
My inclination was definitely to go with the dedicated 4 speed, both because it is from the same period and would likley be the most compatible and because I would imagine that a shifter built only for 4 speeds is better suited for them.

Those cranks and chainrings do look nice Salubrious but I think I'm sticking with my lambert cranks and my 52 tooth cog. I think I can get it shined up pretty nice.

I've been thinking I should put some oil into the FW before I get it built into the wheel. If its truly never been used, which seems to be the case, I imagine its dry in there. Which may be a blessing since that also means no ancient grease.
Should I just fill it to the brim and let the excess leak for a few days before I get it built into the wheel?

Put the oil in after the wheel is built up, otherwise its a pain to make the wheel!
The shifter really isn't any different- to understand this fact better, if you use a 3 speed shifter on a 4 speed hub, the only difference is you can't access the lower gear, so the 4 speed will then act exactly like a three speed. So you can use the universal or dedicated shifter with no worries.

Really, and seriously, unless you can get smaller chainrings for the Lambert crankset, the problem you'll run into is that the gears will be way too high, unless you are a serious masher, keeping in mind that 27" wheels also contribute to a higher gear. I run a 46 on the front and a 19 on the rear of my Humber Sports, and its set up with 26" wheels. High is plenty high and I'm thinking about a 21 on the rear so low will be appropriately lower than my 3-speeds and high will still be higher.

gster 08-17-18 11:57 AM

Robin Hood
Since replacing a warped crank on the left side, my Robin Hood has turned out to be a very pleasant riding bike.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d54c1a7488.jpg
I did a 20 mile round trip the other day with no issues.
I have added a new set of MKS pedals and this weekend
may swap out the rear cog and install a new chain.
Current saddle is a vintage Wrights,
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3954807a70.jpg

markk900 08-17-18 01:01 PM

@gster: so the crank was the problem all along? Glad it worked out for you. Bike looks great.

SirMike1983 08-17-18 01:36 PM


Originally Posted by Buellster (Post 20511506)
This picture is everything in the box.
I am certiantly missing the lock nuts. My LBS does sell new stock SA parts but I'm unsure if they would work for this project.
I'm starting to wonder if I should just start with a simpler 3 speed conversion and save this 4 speed hub for when I have more parts and experience at my disposal.
Edit:
I mean to say a 3 speed, or even a 5 speed conversion would be more cost effective. Maybe not simpler, but cheaper and easier to get a hold of parts for.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1dee7d5e01.jpg

The FW requires the long-throw four-speed shifter. Look for a shifter that either says "3 or 4 speed" or has the "4-speed" right on the front. A standard AW three speed shifter will leave you with a reduced-ratio hub that is missing its bottom gear.

You'll need two long-type axle nuts/sleeves. The diagram in the box shows them. The drive-side is a standard AW-type nut/sleeve combo where the indicator/shifter spindle comes out. The non-drive side is similar, but slightly different in that the center section is more open. This non-drive side combo protects shifter spindle that pokes out of the non-drive side of the axle. It is possible to use a standard AW drive-side nut/sleeve and open the center up a bit with a Dremel or file. This allows the non-drive shifter rod to move in and out of the axle while protecting that rod.

You'll need a basic set of spacers so you can center the wheel in the frame.

You'll need keyed spacers to lock the axle in the rear dropout. These are "anti-rotation washers". Buy Sturmey-made anti-rotation spacers. The FW should work with AW-type spacers. If your rear drop is different from Raleigh pattern, you'll need to grind and file the Sturmey type to fit. If the Sturmey type are too small stock, you'll need to make your own from another brand's type of this spacer (Shimano maybe?).

You'll need everything the AW needs for transmission - fulcrum clamp and ferrule; pulley (looks like you have it); cable. A generic Sunlite AW cable can work, or you can make one using a cable blank and a Bell Systems crimper.

If you choose to re-grease the bearings in the FW, do so without opening up the hub - just pull the cones. The FW and S5 have to be properly tooth timed, which is something you don't have to worry about on the AW. It's not a big deal, but better left alone if all you're doing is re-greasing outer bearings.

desconhecido 08-17-18 01:58 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20511438)
It's worse than that. You will also need 2 anti-rotation washers to mate the axle flats on the hub to the dropouts on the Harding. These might have to be custom made if regular Sturmey Archer washers don't work. Looks like you need axle nuts too and I don't see a fulcrum clip in the photo. You would need a fulcrum clip the correct size to fit your top tube. Maybe someone here who has done this sort of conversion could help with the anti-rotation washer issue. I've never done this, so I don't know.
anti rotation washers

Sturmey archer anti-rotation washers are available to fit the narrow dropout openings on something like a Sports as well as the normal 10mm (or a tad larger to fit a 10mm axle) opening of standard bike frame dropouts. I bought some of these from Niagara, which had a selection of SA stuff available. But, who knows if Niagara is still viable? SJS in UK has probably the most complete selection of stuff for SA applications but shipping costs are a problem unless you want a Carradice bag or something to amortise out the costs.

edit some more:

Here's the anti-rotation washer that you need for your Harding:Washer

edit: I recently bought some 25.4 mm fulcrum clips from an Ebay seller at a reasonable price. 25.4 mm is for a normal old TT where as old dt was 28.6 mm. Believe the seller was Wheel and Sprocket which may be a long term Wisconsin outfit -- appear to ship from Appleton.

Here's a nice Carradice bag you can buy at the same time you buy your washers. Carry your lunch and lunch for all your friends, too. !And some Barley

gster 08-17-18 02:43 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 20512054)
@gster: so the crank was the problem all along? Glad it worked out for you. Bike looks great.

Thanks
The distortion was minimal but enough to throw it off.
It's got a very smooth and quiet 63 hub.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9d12a8fc21.jpg
Only small issue is the replacement crank is square cut as opposed to rounded off, as on the drive side.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a5603aec17.jpg
It seems that squirrels have little to no interest in British 3 Speeds.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...24b50c973f.jpg

Buellster 08-17-18 03:10 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 20512133)
The FW requires the long-throw four-speed shifter. Look for a shifter that either says "3 or 4 speed" or has the "4-speed" right on the front. A standard AW three speed shifter will leave you with a reduced-ratio hub that is missing its bottom gear.

You'll need two long-type axle nuts/sleeves. The diagram in the box shows them. The drive-side is a standard AW-type nut/sleeve combo where the indicator/shifter spindle comes out. The non-drive side is similar, but slightly different in that the center section is more open. This non-drive side combo protects shifter spindle that pokes out of the non-drive side of the axle. It is possible to use a standard AW drive-side nut/sleeve and open the center up a bit with a Dremel or file. This allows the non-drive shifter rod to move in and out of the axle while protecting that rod.

You'll need a basic set of spacers so you can center the wheel in the frame.

You'll need keyed spacers to lock the axle in the rear dropout. These are "anti-rotation washers". Buy Sturmey-made anti-rotation spacers. The FW should work with AW-type spacers. If your rear drop is different from Raleigh pattern, you'll need to grind and file the Sturmey type to fit. If the Sturmey type are too small stock, you'll need to make your own from another brand's type of this spacer (Shimano maybe?).

You'll need everything the AW needs for transmission - fulcrum clamp and ferrule; pulley (looks like you have it); cable. A generic Sunlite AW cable can work, or you can make one using a cable blank and a Bell Systems crimper.

If you choose to re-grease the bearings in the FW, do so without opening up the hub - just pull the cones. The FW and S5 have to be properly tooth timed, which is something you don't have to worry about on the AW. It's not a big deal, but better left alone if all you're doing is re-greasing outer bearings.

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar! Thank you for this.

would this cable work?
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cables/fibrax-complete-sturmey-archer-3-speed-gear-cable/?geoc=US
I can order a decent amount from this site, but the shipping from the UK is expensive so if I can get all or near all the parts I need from here it would most certiantly even out the cost.
the box came with one of the axel nuts but I dont know which one. This site has the standard right hand side but I'm not seeing any for the non-drive side.
oh well 3 out of 4 isn't bad.
I can order the fulcrum, the washers, and potentially the cable as well from them.

More edit:
it looks as though the nut I have is for the non drive side!
The axel can move in and out of the nuts opening. from what you had said if it was the drive side this would not be the case. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...77a6fedb95.jpg

Buellster 08-17-18 03:15 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20512176)
Sturmey archer anti-rotation washers are available to fit the narrow dropout openings on something like a Sports as well as the normal 10mm (or a tad larger to fit a 10mm axle) opening of standard bike frame dropouts. I bought some of these from Niagara, which had a selection of SA stuff available. But, who knows if Niagara is still viable? SJS in UK has probably the most complete selection of stuff for SA applications but shipping costs are a problem unless you want a Carradice bag or something to amortise out the costs.

edit some more:

Here's the anti-rotation washer that you need for your Harding:Washer

edit: I recently bought some 25.4 mm fulcrum clips from an Ebay seller at a reasonable price. 25.4 mm is for a normal old TT where as old dt was 28.6 mm. Believe the seller was Wheel and Sprocket which may be a long term Wisconsin outfit -- appear to ship from Appleton.

Here's a nice Carradice bag you can buy at the same time you buy your washers. Carry your lunch and lunch for all your friends, too. !And some Barley

Thank you too! Links and all!
Shipping is about 16 dollars this way which isn't too insane. But how can I turn down that bag!? Its even on sale!
I'm wondering if I could order all the bits and pieces I'm gonna need from here in one go...

desconhecido 08-17-18 03:31 PM


Originally Posted by Buellster (Post 20512328)
Thank you too! Links and all!
Shipping is about 16 dollars this way which isn't too insane. But how can I turn down that bag!? Its even on sale!
I'm wondering if I could order all the bits and pieces I'm gonna need from here in one go...

there are sources in the U.S., probably, for everything that you can get from SJS. But, if you look through their website, you might find everything you need and some cool stuff at a good price besides. Don't forget that you get a rebate on the VAT which may or may not be reflected in the prices quoted. I've bought stuff from them several times over the years and have always been satisfied with their service. Their prices on Carradice bags (which are really quite nice) are as good as any I've found.

JohnDThompson 08-17-18 05:00 PM


Originally Posted by Buellster (Post 20512311)
it looks as though the nut I have is for the non drive side!
The axel can move in and out of the nuts opening. from what you had said if it was the drive side this would not be the case. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...77a6fedb95.jpg

That's not the axle moving; it's the indicator rod that moves the clutch inside the hub to select the various gears. Unlike the more common AW hub, the FW (and some SW hubs) uses a two-piece indicator rod:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/two-piece-indicator.jpg

As you note, the FW hubs put the windowed nut on the non-drive side and the gear adjustment is made by setting cable tension to make the end of the rod flush with the axle end.

Although a window on the drive side is unneeded, you can use another windowed nut on the drive side to make a smooth exit path for the chain attached to the indicator rod. Originally, the hub would have come with a non-windowed nut for that side, but those are fairly scarce these days and offer no functional benefit over using a more widely available windowed nut:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/sa-nds-windowed-nut.jpg

ascherer 08-17-18 05:09 PM

A Dunelt, Royal Scot and Robin Hood walk into a bar...

On Grove Street in the West Village, NYC. As @noglider points out, these classics are not unusual in NYC and in particular in this neighborhood.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...67d9a1483.jpeg


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