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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

PeterLYoung 04-29-19 05:14 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20905537)
So they came on the handlebars.They must be quite old. What a stroke of luck. Funny how after you look at old bikes long enough small details stand out. My eye wants to see them on pre war rod brake roadsters. I don't know the thinking behind this, but all of the English manufacturers seemed to use the short grips on rod brake bikes and longer ones on caliper brake bikes. Not sure when this changed. My 1970 DL-1 came with the same full length Dare grips as the Sports.

For what it's worth, I think it was a hangover fromlate 1800's & early 1900's bikes which all seemed to have short grips in various materials, often cork. Rod Brake bikes continued this and I guess when Cable operation came along it was different enough to cause a re think as the handlebar designs changed, on the other hand I could be talking total rubbish. Someone might know!!!!!!

gster 04-29-19 05:20 AM


Originally Posted by PeterLYoung (Post 20905559)
https://www.hoopriderparts.com/Cyclo..._17463464.aspx
They have lots of interesting stuff including a NOS Benelux Derailleur click above, early pattern, where would you find one!!!!
I bought a set of NOS Bluemels 27" Fenders.

Hopefully the shipping and duty makes it all worthwhile.
I ordered some extra things (which I'll use) to qualify for free shipping.
I placed the order on a Thursday, it was shipped Friday and arrived
at my house Monday.
They also have items not listed on their site.
NOS rear brake cables @ $4.00 if you order 4 or more.
I think it was you who steered me to these guys.

PeterLYoung 04-29-19 05:22 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20905560)
Actually, yours is the second style trigger shifter which is a good thing. This one has the far superior design with an internal spring and uses the same sausage cable end as modern triggers. Good find. The first style uses a lolly pop type cable end, has a longer lever and an external spring which tends to get lost.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...817e541b50.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0bcaca2bf9.jpg

I agree and my Humber when new could have had either in 1948 (both would have been available) what I have bought is period correct. It would be like looking for Hens Teeth to get the earlier pattern you show, especially in good order (It looks like you have one, good on you!!!) though cable should not be too much of a problem as I am sure the BSA 3 speed trigger cable might fit, it has a similar lolly pop nipple I have a spare one of those fortunately for my BSA Roadster.
I am over the moon with the one I have!!!

gster 04-29-19 05:27 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20905537)
So they came on the handlebars.They must be quite old. What a stroke of luck. Funny how after you look at old bikes long enough small details stand out. My eye wants to see them on pre war rod brake roadsters. I don't know the thinking behind this, but all of the English manufacturers seemed to use the short grips on rod brake bikes and longer ones on caliper brake bikes. Not sure when this changed. My 1970 DL-1 came with the same full length Dare grips as the Sports.

Yes, came as a unit @ $35.00.
Used with a few scuffs but very presentable.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a4a982f19a.jpg
I also got this NOS GB stem for a very reasonable $28.00

gster 04-29-19 05:43 AM


Originally Posted by PeterLYoung (Post 20905509)
STUNNING BOAT: Love that style of speedboat. It will be beautiful when finished. One comment, is that rust creeping through lower bow, should be copper nails, if screws 316 stainless works.

I've done a lot of research on this boat and have determined that it's
a kit boat (make unknown but could be a Gren-ell).
Built circa 1955-1957.
I doubt it spent much time in the water and suspect
there may have been a small collision
(broken windshield, bent steering wheel)
I'm removing the screw filler and replacing.
I don't think I can remove any of the older screws
but will reinforce with new in the spaces between
originals.
Like a British bike, the boat as found, has little
real value.
Not being a brand name, Duke, Minett etc.
it will never be worth much but as with all
of this "stuff" the value is in the satisfaction
of accomplishment.
Also, if I don't have a "project" I can get a bit
"squirrely"...

PeterLYoung 04-29-19 06:12 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20905592)
I've done a lot of research on this boat and have determined that it's
a kit boat (make unknown but could be a Gren-ell).
Built circa 1955-1957.
I doubt it spent much time in the water and suspect
there may have been a small collision
(broken windshield, bent steering wheel)
I'm removing the screw filler and replacing.
I don't think I can remove any of the older screws
but will reinforce with new in the spaces between
originals.
Like a British bike, the boat as found, has little
real value.
Not being a brand name, Duke, Minett etc.
it will never be worth much but as with all
of this "stuff" the value is in the satisfaction
of accomplishment.
Also, if I don't have a "project" I can get a bit
"squirrely"...

Like you I need a project, I also like to see further projects so I don't run out!!
The boat when finished with that lovely decking Lacquered the upholstery done and the refurbish Mercury 1965 engine everyone will want a ride in it!!!!

PeterLYoung 04-29-19 06:16 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20905575)
Yes, came as a unit @ $35.00.
Used with a few scuffs but very presentable.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a4a982f19a.jpg
I also got this NOS GB stem for a very reasonable $28.00

GB Stem: You could have paid more for a used one.
They have some rare parts on the site, I bought the NOS blue Bluemels fenders, really nice. shipping to UK is not cheap but where would I have got them in that condition?

PeterLYoung 04-29-19 06:19 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20905563)
The boat spent the winter in the garage above the car.
I did buy a vintage (1965) Mercury 500 (50hp) motor.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8643ae9fb9.jpg
The motor is currently at a Marine shop in Bracebridge and I've been collecting
hardware and cleats over the winter.


Hopefully in the water buy July.

That Engine is so Art Deco, fantastic, the casing is in such nice condition!!!

BigChief 04-29-19 06:38 AM


Originally Posted by PeterLYoung (Post 20905573)
I agree and my Humber when new could have had either in 1948 (both would have been available) what I have bought is period correct. It would be like looking for Hens Teeth to get the earlier pattern you show, especially in good order (It looks like you have one, good on you!!!) though cable should not be too much of a problem as I am sure the BSA 3 speed trigger cable might fit, it has a similar lolly pop nipple I have a spare one of those fortunately for my BSA Roadster.
I am over the moon with the one I have!!!

Yes, yours is correct for 1948. I don't have one like it, but it is my all time favorite design. It has the newer internal spring design but still has the classy, embossed in relief style face plate from the 1930s. The only drawback to the 3 or 4 speed trigger is that you need to use a small screwdriver to pry up the pawl when installing a cable. That doesn't bother me one bit. Here's an ad from 1949 showing this shifter with the later window and more modern graphics.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a946f0b2c2.jpg

gster 04-29-19 06:41 AM


Originally Posted by PeterLYoung (Post 20905626)
That Engine is so Art Deco, fantastic, the casing is in such nice condition!!!

Yes, I spent some time searching this out.
I actually bought 2.
The 1965 as pictured was missing the lower unit.
So I bought a 68 parts motor with a decent lower unit.
The seller was a vintage car/boat guy and he had a good
story about the 65 being a old guy's spare engine....
He only took it to church on Sundays...
We'll see.

gster 04-29-19 06:48 AM


Originally Posted by PeterLYoung (Post 20905613)
Like you I need a project, I also like to see further projects so I don't run out!!
The boat when finished with that lovely decking Lacquered the upholstery done and the refurbish Mercury 1965 engine everyone will want a ride in it!!!!

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bb754ea4c8.jpg
Many people would not see the potential in a bike like this, nor have the will to see it put right.
Looking forward to the progress reports.

PeterLYoung 04-29-19 06:54 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20905661)
Yes, I spent some time searching this out.
I actually bought 2.
The 1965 as pictured was missing the lower unit.
So I bought a 68 parts motor with a decent lower unit.
The seller was a vintage car/boat guy and he had a good
story about the 65 being a old guy's spare engine....
He only took it to church on Sundays...
We'll see.

You did well, most of that vintage are either scrapped years ago or so beat up to not be worth the effort!!

Ged117 04-29-19 01:13 PM

Hello all

I'm finished with the bottom bracket overhaul and now I want to reinstall the cranks. I've got a cotter press and new pins from Mark at Bikesmith. However I'm not sure how to get them started (since the press won't fit over top). Do I encourage them with a hammer and then use the press to finish the job? I don't want to mess up since those cotter pins are precious.

Thanks.

Salubrious 04-29-19 01:47 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20906366)
However I'm not sure how to get them started (since the press won't fit over top). Do I encourage them with a hammer and then use the press to finish the job? I don't want to mess up since those cotter pins are precious.

Thanks.

That doesn't sound right. Why won't the press 'fit over the top'?

Ged117 04-29-19 01:53 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 20906426)
That doesn't sound right. Why won't the press 'fit over the top'?

I'm a little confused about the angle. There isn't room to place the press overtop of the cotter and align the bolt properly above the cotter pin. During disassembly, the press fits with the crank arm inside the 'C', and I just pushed out the cotter pin.

It may be something obvious I'm missing. I also can't seem to get the AG hub cone adjustment done correctly today either. I did take apart the right (drive) side to have a look inside and service the bearings. Now I can't get thr adjustment right - it also seems like I have less space on the drive side axle end. I think the right side cone isn't correct. One of those shop days...

Salubrious 04-29-19 02:08 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20906437)
I'm a little confused about the angle. There isn't room to place the press overtop of the cotter and align the bolt properly above the cotter pin. During disassembly, the press fits with the crank arm inside the 'C', and I just pushed out the cotter pin.

The press should be at a right angle with respect to the crank arm. Are you coming at it from the side?

clubman 04-29-19 03:13 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20906366)
Hello all

I'm finished with the bottom bracket overhaul and now I want to reinstall the cranks. I've got a cotter press and new pins from Mark at Bikesmith. However I'm not sure how to get them started (since the press won't fit over top). Do I encourage them with a hammer and then use the press to finish the job? I don't want to mess up since those cotter pins are precious.

Thanks.

Sounds like you're saying the pin sits too 'high' for the press to engage? By all means, tap it down a little, heeding the orientation of the bevel and finish the job as soon as the press fits. And remember the cotter pins orient 180 degrees to each other, so that your pant cuffs won't catch on the nut end, rather the domed top end of the cotter. If that makes sense?

gster 04-29-19 03:34 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20906366)
Hello all

I'm finished with the bottom bracket overhaul and now I want to reinstall the cranks. I've got a cotter press and new pins from Mark at Bikesmith. However I'm not sure how to get them started (since the press won't fit over top). Do I encourage them with a hammer and then use the press to finish the job? I don't want to mess up since those cotter pins are precious.

Thanks.

If the cranks are properly aligned with the spindle, the cotters should fit in by hand and
seat themselves about 1/2 way in. Then use the press (or hammer) to fully drive them home.
Not sure about your hub...
You should back off the non drive side cone and then tighten the drive side cone (finger tight)
Hub adjustment is then completed by tightening the non drive side (finger tight) and then
backing off perhaps a 1/4-1/2 turn to allow for play.
Once installed with the chain attached, the non drive side can be further adjusted.
Ideally the hub should spin freely with little or no spinning of the crank and a little
side to side play of the hub.
It's all a matter of "touch".
Over tightening the hub can mess up the innards...

Ged117 04-29-19 04:00 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20906590)
Sounds like you're saying the pin sits too 'high' for the press to engage? By all means, tap it down a little, heeding the orientation of the bevel and finish the job as soon as the press fits. And remember the cotter pins orient 180 degrees to each other, so that your pant cuffs won't catch on the nut end, rather the domed top end of the cotter. If that makes sense?

That's what I meant, thanks. How do I position the beveled side? I was a bit confused by that. This is my first cottered crank service, so I appreciate the help.

clubman 04-29-19 04:18 PM

If you slip the crank arms on the axle, rotate them and peer through the cotter pin hole, you'll see the axle flats line up with the hole and it becomes evident that the cotter's bevelled face will mate with the axle flat. You should review Sheldons page and look up a video before attempting for the first time.

Ged117 04-29-19 04:49 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20906613)
If the cranks are properly aligned with the spindle, the cotters should fit in by hand and
seat themselves about 1/2 way in. Then use the press (or hammer) to fully drive them home.
Not sure about your hub...
You should back off the non drive side cone and then tighten the drive side cone (finger tight)
Hub adjustment is then completed by tightening the non drive side (finger tight) and then
backing off perhaps a 1/4-1/2 turn to allow for play.
Once installed with the chain attached, the non drive side can be further adjusted.
Ideally the hub should spin freely with little or no spinning of the crank and a little
side to side play of the hub.
It's all a matter of "touch".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNxwMwzS3Jo
Over tightening the hub can mess up the innards...

Thanks. I'll do as you suggest. I think I got the order off with the hub and everything got a bit wonky. The inside of the hub was greasy but in great condition for 70 years old.

browngw 04-29-19 07:52 PM

I have never had a replacement cotter fit a Raleigh crank without filing the angle enough to get a tight fit and proper insertion. If it doesn't want to go, something is wrong . Lots of good ideas here for you to try. Good luck!

gster 04-29-19 08:03 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20906719)
Thanks. I'll do as you suggest. I think I got the order off with the hub and everything got a bit wonky. The inside of the hub was greasy but in great condition for 70 years old.

The first time I tried to work on one (years ago) I removed the drive side and pumped
the hub full of grease.....
It seemed like a good idea at the time....

Ged117 04-30-19 06:55 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20906671)
If you slip the crank arms on the axle, rotate them and peer through the cotter pin hole, you'll see the axle flats line up with the hole and it becomes evident that the cotter's bevelled face will mate with the axle flat. You should review Sheldons page and look up a video before attempting for the first time.

This makes sense now. I think that is what I was missing in terms of practical theoryisms...thanks.


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 20906966)
I have never had a replacement cotter fit a Raleigh crank without filing the angle enough to get a tight fit and proper insertion. If it doesn't want to go, something is wrong . Lots of good ideas here for you to try. Good luck!

These were filed by the Bikesmith fellow, and match the original 1950 cotters. It inserted quite a bit, just needs a bit more before I can get the press on it. I think it should be OK as long as I align it properly.


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20906978)
The first time I tried to work on one (years ago) I removed the drive side and pumped
the hub full of grease.....
It seemed like a good idea at the time....

I wish I'd have adjusted the left side only, but I wanted to get in there and take a look. I will have lots of practice at any rate with this AG, my parts bin AW, and the FW destined for the Peugeot. Thanks all, I'll update when I get back there this weekend.

carfreefamily 04-30-19 09:18 AM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20906366)
Hello all

I'm finished with the bottom bracket overhaul and now I want to reinstall the cranks. I've got a cotter press and new pins from Mark at Bikesmith. However I'm not sure how to get them started (since the press won't fit over top). Do I encourage them with a hammer and then use the press to finish the job? I don't want to mess up since those cotter pins are precious.

Thanks.

That doesn't sound right to me either. Given the way I end up working, that's a clear sign to stop what you're doing and take a close look. Are the cranks lined up with the cutaway portion of the bottom bracket axle? Are you putting the cotter pin in with the angle toward the cutaway? Sometimes when I'm tired, I forget those essential, simple things. The cotter pin should just slip in almost all the way. The press doesn't really force it into place, (speaking as someone who has used my press on exactly on job, and also as someone who has broken too many things by forcing them), I think it just sets it in place a little more firmly. Everyone else with more experience there feel free to chime in!


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