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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

ThermionicScott 11-09-21 05:47 PM


Originally Posted by Greg R (Post 22301505)
are there Raleigh support groups? :)

I thought this was it! :lol:

Greg R 11-09-21 06:06 PM

Yup, herd management is on yur own :)

3speedslow 11-09-21 06:19 PM

Some new bits for 2 of my fleet.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a89cc25fb.jpeg
New seat post R bolt, stem light bracket, aluminium handle bars, pump pegs for a Bluemel andnew Schalbe delta cruise tires.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...20e0061aa.jpeg
New stem to raise the bars, new front axle set and tires

vintagebicycle 11-09-21 08:22 PM


Originally Posted by Greg R (Post 22300323)
This implies to me a force was from the top and/or bottom of the frame rather than frontal. Rather than a front type of collision or impact driving the fork rearward, perhaps either a very weighty person in the past or a drop off of an edge or stair run causing a spread front of the wheel. Think of a car landing after a jump off a ramp

Its just a thought but a number of years ago I had a fork bent the same way.
The owner had one of those pulley systems that stored bikes on the ceiling of the garage.
He showed up with the bike saying it 'fell' and wouldn't steer.
I got the whole story after taking the thing apart. It turned out that he had hoisted the bike up on the pulleys and one anchor pulled out of the ceiling,. The bike swung downward slamming the front of the handlebars into the wall. It was locked up tight. The headset was dented by the ball bearings. I don't know how far it had fallen or swung into the wall or what ever it hit but the damage was obvious. On that bike, the bars showed no damage other than some drywall dust jammed into the brake levers.
The steer tube bent where the stem ended. On that bike I simply used a set of replacement forks but the forks had actually split where the tube bent.

It takes a lot of force to bend a steer tube like that.
If a bike takes a hit to the wheel in either direction, the tips of the blades or the point where the crown meets the steer tube are the likely point of failure, its a matter of leverage points. A frontal hit also often results in the frame bending at the head tube lugs as well but in the opposite direction, the lugs are much stronger. The combination of the stem and the steer tube make for a much stronger combined length of steel so the weak point is likely where the stem ends, especially if the tube is bulged from an over tightened wedge. In effect, the bearing becomes the support point and possibly the point of leverage.

dirtman 11-09-21 11:49 PM

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...23609e85cf.jpg

Picture of bike before tear down, as found. (close up of original ad pic).


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b80309bc9b.jpg
I drew a few straight lines to better show the degree of the bend.
When you look at it this way its even harder to figure how it was even ridable.

A hard hit to the handle bars makes a lot of sense, the lower forks are perfect, but its got a super long stem that I doubt was original, and its got two Schwinn grips and two newer shifters vs. the original twin lever S5 shifters.

gster 11-10-21 06:50 AM


Originally Posted by Greg R (Post 22301505)
I have this hankering for more when I saw these. His and hers, what could be better. A pair from Raleigh Hills of all places:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4406f363f4.png
Portland, Oregon CL
https://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/...404815125.html

are there Raleigh support groups? :)

Husband -"Hey honey, look what I bought!"
Wife- "Why did you do that?"
H- "So we can get some exercise and get in shape."
W- "What does that mean? Are you calling me fat?"
H- "Uh uh uh.....No, I just thought...
W- "you just thought WHAT?"
H- "Nevermind..."

Sadly, this is your support group.
At one point I limited myself to 10 bikes...
I currently have 17
I sold 3 last summer but then acquired 2 more this summer.
It's mostly a harmless addiction.

FBOATSB 11-10-21 08:07 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 22302367)
Husband -"Hey honey, look what I bought!"
Wife- "Why did you do that?"
H- "So we can get some exercise and get in shape."
W- "What does that mean? Are you calling me fat?"
H- "Uh uh uh.....No, I just thought...
W- "you just thought WHAT?"
H- "Nevermind..."

Sadly, this is your support group.
At one point I limited myself to 10 bikes...
I currently have 17
I sold 3 last summer but then acquired 2 more this summer.
It's mostly a harmless addiction.

This exactly. When, in 2014, I had to have her help to drag my old 33 year old bike out of the basement when I couldn't even walk without a cane she thought it was the dumbest idea in the world. And my spine surgeon was not amused either. Bike count hovers around +or- 6 now. And she has been very supportive since then, but will only ride the indoor recumbent.

markk900 11-10-21 09:57 AM


Originally Posted by dirtman (Post 22302231)
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...23609e85cf.jpg

Picture of bike before tear down, as found. (close up of original ad pic).


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b80309bc9b.jpg
I drew a few straight lines to better show the degree of the bend.
When you look at it this way its even harder to figure how it was even ridable.

A hard hit to the handle bars makes a lot of sense, the lower forks are perfect, but its got a super long stem that I doubt was original, and its got two Schwinn grips and two newer shifters vs. the original twin lever S5 shifters.

Your picture convinces me even more that the damage could not have been done with that fork in that bike. Note that the bend goes all the way to the edge of the frame steerer tube inside diameter - even without the bearings in place you would need more space to bend the fork steerer that far in situ. And with the bearings in place I really cannot see how enough leverage could be put on that to bend it that far (at least without serious damage to bearings, races and/or frame (as per the situation with the bike on the pulley earlier)). How the heck did that fork get into the frame after bending?

Edit: my imagination is running wild but what if someone got that long stem wedged in to the steerer on the fork, couldn't figure out how to get it out so tried to disassemble the front end ending up with the fork loose from the bearings at both ends, and just reefed on the handlebars in an effort to free them....that might give enough space for a bend. Then he gave up and reassembled?

dirtman 11-11-21 02:55 PM

I think the bearings were actually holding back some of the bend while it was installed somehow. I really didn't think I was going to see any threads left after how hard it was to get the top cone off. The bearings didn't look damaged though. Both the top cone and the bottom race though have left impressions on the fork tube and threads.
There's a bit of a bulge at the bend, The stem came out but took a good bit of force to work it free. The stem is not bent.
I don't see how it could have been assembled after the bend, even I was able to get the fork back into the frame with both cups in place, keeping all the balls in place as the cone is turned down into place might prove a real challenge.
What surprised me is that none of the bearings were crushed or disintegrated from the pressure. I'm even more surprised that it steered okay.
I'm a bit picky about how a bike handles and what surprised me most is that this thing didn't show any symptoms at all of having any issues when I rode it. I had been using it around the neighborhood for a few years or so. The thing steered fine, didn't bind or feel off in any way. There was no rattle or play in the headset and it would roll hands free just fine.

If you center the two bent ends in in the head tube, there may have been enough space for it to bend but I agree it would be tough for it to bend far enough to take the permanent set it has now.

The bike had obviously sat for many years before I found it, it came from the estate of a couple who passed in their late 90's,I bought a matching green Raleigh Sports and this bike from the same sale along with a minty looking Hercules men's model in black. The Hercules looked new, maybe never ridden. I sold the Hercules but kept the matched pair.
I'll probably just call the ladies bike parts and fix up the men's model. Its not as clean but its not bent The wheels and chrome bits off the ladies bike along with a serious cleaning and some new grease will do wonders for the men's bike.
Both bikes were 'well lubed' and greasy all over, it really preserved things over time. The ladies bike had a small oil squirt can in a tin coffee can wired to the corner of the one basket, so who ever rode it, carried and likely used the oil on the bike quite often. The wheels cleaned up like brand new. The men's bike though has a few flat spots in both rims and a good bit of brake track wear on the sides. The rims on the ladies bike are mint. Both had hubs dated 3 of 69.

I was debating on just using a new fork on it, but the new forks I have are all chrome plated. They came from a former Raleigh dealer years ago. If the bike was black, making a new fork match would be a lot easier. I don't value the bike enough I suppose to justify putting much into it, the parts are worth more to fix up the men's model.
I didn't pay much for the three bikes in the first place, just pocket change. And the thought that the bike likely went through all this in the past doesn't make it a keeper in my eyes either. Its too bad because it looked so clean. I have a '52, and a 59 in the shed outback that are decent which I'll likely use to build up a loaner bike I suppose. I want to have at least one one drop tube model in the garage just in case. Both of those are black bikes, making them 100% will be a lot easier. I'll hang the frame from the green bike on the rack in hopes that a perfect matching fork turns up one day. Even if I am able to straighten the fork, it'll likely never be 100% and I'd never be happy with a bike with a chrome fork or a rattle can paint job on the fork.

Vintage Schwinn 11-12-21 12:56 AM

I saw this on the bay $39 LOCAL PICK-UP ONLY VERY ANCIENT ROSS (Motobecane built, made in France) 3 Speed......
Somebody located very close to Lansdale, Pennsylvania might want it, as a project. #363618433935 on the bay....I don't know the seller, I am not the seller.
The cool vintage headlamp on that bike is worth nearly $39. Yeah, the bike is rough but 3 speeds are simple and for someone wanting a simple project, you can't go wrong for $39. You can see clearly the MOTOBECANE decal with Made in France on that very ancient ROSS.
Yeah, it is not English, and it isn't a Schwinn but somebody ought to jump on that one for $39 and make it a nice rider.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/363618433935

gster 11-12-21 06:42 AM

Crude but effective method to straighten the forks....
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...251f09813a.jpg
This was my Mexican bike. This method does work.

dirtman 11-12-21 07:38 AM

I got an idea early this morning.
I dug out my Park fork gauge, and a set of tubing blocks I picked up a few years ago.
I clamped the fork gauge in my largest vise, stuck the stem back in the steer tube with the nut on the threads just for protection, and I clamped a 2" long tubing block over the unbent part of the steer tube down low. I then took my largest adjustable wrench, about 36" long, and placed it between the fork blades over the tubing block, and forced the tube back where it belongs. To my surprise, it bent fairly easily, almost as if it wanted to go back in shape. It took a few tries but I got it within .005" measured with a dial indicator with the fork mounted in the frame.
I did heat the fork up in some near boiling water. I didn't want to try and bend cold steel.
I didn't mess with trying to get the bulge out from the stem wedge, but a lot of it came out anyhow.
After it cooled down and I was satisfied with the steer tube, I put the fork back in the gauge and tweaked the blades just a bit to get them just perfect. One was off every so slightly, but most are.
Here's a couple pics.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e48673cc60.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bb287908bf.jpg

After really thinking about this and looking closer at the fork, I realized that the worn spot at the bottom of the steer tube was likely from the fork rubbing the inside of the bearing cup at one point, it had worn itself clear by the time I got the bike. When I cleaned and counted the headset bearings, I realized that both ends had only about 2/3rds the correct number of balls, which is what likely let it spin and function the way it was. Now, with the right number of balls and no bend, it feels good as new.
The headset cup showed no signs of rubbing, but its likely harder than the steer tube.

markk900 11-12-21 07:43 AM

dirtman Great outcome!

Salubrious 11-12-21 11:54 AM

Thieves got into my garage and stole three bikes- my Superb, a 1960s ladie's Sprite and a 1974 ladies Superbe, which had an alloy 1950s AW hub on a CR18 rim with SA wingnuts. Sheesh.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7872c66065.jpg

The Superbe is a bike I've had for about 15 years. It has alloy CR18 rims with a 1962 (IIRC) SA hub, SA wingnuts on the front, alloy bars, Brooks grips, alloy Nitto 'Dirt Drop' stem, 1960s shifter, alloy seatpost and a 1960s Brooks B72. The saddlebag is a wax and canvas Minnehaha. LED lighting front and rear- the rear is mounted high so it can be seen. Crane bell, a frankenstien front brake made of a combo of Weinmann and Raleigh parts- the brake arms are the alloy bits. Weinmann brake levers too. There is a snowflake style Raleigh crank and Lyotard 460 steel pedals. I have the key for the fork lock.

Greg R 11-12-21 11:57 AM

Speaking of steering, what is the proper O.D. of the handlebar center where it is clamped to the stem? The Blue Raleigh that came in has been lubed and tuned in my shop, but the handlebar will slip. I don't know if it's original. I have the clamp, with a washer under the nut, very tight and I'm worried about over tightening. The gap in the clamp under the bolt is very small compared to the other bikes with have much wider gaps in their handlebar clamps.

Greg R 11-12-21 12:00 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 22305045)
Thieves got into my garage and stole three bikes- my Superb, a 1960s ladie's Sprite and a 1974 ladies Superbe, which had an alloy 1950s AW hub on a CR18 rim with SA wingnuts. Sheesh.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7872c66065.jpg

The Superbe is a bike I've had for about 15 years. It has alloy CR18 rims with a 1962 (IIRC) SA hub, SA wingnuts on the front, alloy bars, Brooks grips, alloy Nitto 'Dirt Drop' stem, 1960s shifter, alloy seatpost and a 1960s Brooks B72. The saddlebag is a wax and canvas Minnehaha. LED lighting front and rear- the rear is mounted high so it can be seen. Crane bell, a frankenstien front brake made of a combo of Weinmann and Raleigh parts- the brake arms are the alloy bits. Weinmann brake levers too. There is a snowflake style Raleigh crank and Lyotard 460 steel pedals. I have the key for the fork lock.


Dang that hurts. Where's a Bronson or Chuck when you need them?

vintagebicycle 11-12-21 01:50 PM


Originally Posted by Greg R (Post 22305047)
Speaking of steering, what is the proper O.D. of the handlebar center where it is clamped to the stem? The Blue Raleigh that came in has been lubed and tuned in my shop, but the handlebar will slip. I don't know if it's original. I have the clamp, with a washer under the nut, very tight and I'm worried about over tightening. The gap in the clamp under the bolt is very small compared to the other bikes with have much wider gaps in their handlebar clamps.

I have two apart right now here that measure 26.1 mm at the clamp bulge.
I think there were some which were 1" too.
The two I have here are off '65 and '71 Sports models.

vintagebicycle 11-12-21 02:02 PM


Originally Posted by Greg R (Post 22305051)
Dang that hurts. Where's a Bronson or Chuck when you need them?

I was thinking more like Colt, Smith, or Wesson.

markk900 11-12-21 02:03 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 22305045)
Thieves got into my garage and stole three bikes- my Superb, a 1960s ladie's Sprite and a 1974 ladies Superbe, which had an alloy 1950s AW hub on a CR18 rim with SA wingnuts. Sheesh.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7872c66065.jpg

The Superbe is a bike I've had for about 15 years. It has alloy CR18 rims with a 1962 (IIRC) SA hub, SA wingnuts on the front, alloy bars, Brooks grips, alloy Nitto 'Dirt Drop' stem, 1960s shifter, alloy seatpost and a 1960s Brooks B72. The saddlebag is a wax and canvas Minnehaha. LED lighting front and rear- the rear is mounted high so it can be seen. Crane bell, a frankenstien front brake made of a combo of Weinmann and Raleigh parts- the brake arms are the alloy bits. Weinmann brake levers too. There is a snowflake style Raleigh crank and Lyotard 460 steel pedals. I have the key for the fork lock.

Bastards! Sorry to hear about this. I lost a vintage motorcycle a while back - stupid theft as it was a unique bike appealing to a very small segment of the market so practically worthless to anyone else, but it was mint and original and fun to ride. Not sure your area but it could easily show up on CL locally. If you have serial numbers perhaps post them in case an inmate spots any of them for sale in a wider area.

Salubrious 11-12-21 02:10 PM

I've been watching FB, CL and Offer up.

clubman 11-12-21 02:14 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 22305045)
Thieves got into my garage and stole three bikes- my Superb, a 1960s ladie's Sprite and a 1974 ladies Superbe, which had an alloy 1950s AW hub on a CR18 rim with SA wingnuts. Sheesh.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7872c66065.jpg

The Superbe is a bike I've had for about 15 years. It has alloy CR18 rims with a 1962 (IIRC) SA hub, SA wingnuts on the front, alloy bars, Brooks grips, alloy Nitto 'Dirt Drop' stem, 1960s shifter, alloy seatpost and a 1960s Brooks B72. The saddlebag is a wax and canvas Minnehaha. LED lighting front and rear- the rear is mounted high so it can be seen. Crane bell, a frankenstien front brake made of a combo of Weinmann and Raleigh parts- the brake arms are the alloy bits. Weinmann brake levers too. There is a snowflake style Raleigh crank and Lyotard 460 steel pedals. I have the key for the fork lock.

Bollocks, this totally sux. I see you ride a big frame so I can't help you out with a Sports frame. I'm happy to send you parts for shipping to rebuild again. Cranks, pulleys, clamps, even the Weinmann brake...make a list when you're ready. Heck I've got a 74 ish Mens Sprite frame/mudguards you can have as well.

vintagebicycle 11-12-21 02:18 PM


Originally Posted by dirtman (Post 22304760)
I got an idea early this morning.
I dug out my Park fork gauge, and a set of tubing blocks I picked up a few years ago.
I clamped the fork gauge in my largest vise, stuck the stem back in the steer tube with the nut on the threads just for protection, and I clamped a 2" long tubing block over the unbent part of the steer tube down low. I then took my largest adjustable wrench, about 36" long, and placed it between the fork blades over the tubing block, and forced the tube back where it belongs. To my surprise, it bent fairly easily, almost as if it wanted to go back in shape. It took a few tries but I got it within .005" measured with a dial indicator with the fork mounted in the frame.
I did heat the fork up in some near boiling water. I didn't want to try and bend cold steel.
I didn't mess with trying to get the bulge out from the stem wedge, but a lot of it came out anyhow.
After it cooled down and I was satisfied with the steer tube, I put the fork back in the gauge and tweaked the blades just a bit to get them just perfect. One was off every so slightly, but most are.
Here's a couple pics.
............................... ....................................

After really thinking about this and looking closer at the fork, I realized that the worn spot at the bottom of the steer tube was likely from the fork rubbing the inside of the bearing cup at one point, it had worn itself clear by the time I got the bike. When I cleaned and counted the headset bearings, I realized that both ends had only about 2/3rds the correct number of balls, which is what likely let it spin and function the way it was. Now, with the right number of balls and no bend, it feels good as new.
The headset cup showed no signs of rubbing, but its likely harder than the steer tube.

They probably removed some of the bearings to allow the thing to turn with that bend in it. Or the missing ball bearings fell out when it got bent. At some point it must have turned pretty hard judging by that wear mark.
Either way, it turned out fantastic considering what it looked like before.

Salubrious 11-12-21 03:05 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 22305199)
Bollocks, this totally sux. I see you ride a big frame so I can't help you out with a Sports frame. I'm happy to send you parts for shipping to rebuild again. Cranks, pulleys, clamps, even the Weinmann brake...make a list when you're ready. Heck I've got a 74 ish Mens Sprite frame/mudguards you can have as well.

With a frame like that I'd be tempted to put an S5 in it but they are going for real money these days. The lady's bike had a good one on it. My girlfriend is upset about that. All these bikes have been on the Lake Pepin tour at one point or another.

gster 11-12-21 03:45 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 22305045)
Thieves got into my garage and stole three bikes- my Superb, a 1960s ladie's Sprite and a 1974 ladies Superbe, which had an alloy 1950s AW hub on a CR18 rim with SA wingnuts. Sheesh.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7872c66065.jpg

The Superbe is a bike I've had for about 15 years. It has alloy CR18 rims with a 1962 (IIRC) SA hub, SA wingnuts on the front, alloy bars, Brooks grips, alloy Nitto 'Dirt Drop' stem, 1960s shifter, alloy seatpost and a 1960s Brooks B72. The saddlebag is a wax and canvas Minnehaha. LED lighting front and rear- the rear is mounted high so it can be seen. Crane bell, a frankenstien front brake made of a combo of Weinmann and Raleigh parts- the brake arms are the alloy bits. Weinmann brake levers too. There is a snowflake style Raleigh crank and Lyotard 460 steel pedals. I have the key for the fork lock.

Dirtbags...

Vintage Schwinn 11-12-21 04:39 PM

Salubrious: Sorry to hear about the burglary. If the thieves know anything about the types of bicycles that they stole, you should definitely monitor both Ebay and the C.A.B.E. . Typical Cabers & Ebayers never deal in stolen goods, but some thief looking to unload one or more of them at closer to market value might engage the C.A.B.E. marketplace or dump it on Ebay, as you immediately connect with a large audience that knows & likes collecting those bikes, and also assumes that someone with a more ancient & obscure bicycle for sale would be the rightful owner and not a thief.
If the burglary was committed by opportunistic homeless thieves, the bikes might now reside within the local homeless encampments, but I see your location is St. Paul, MN......much too cold there, for a sizeable homeless population, as surviving in the elements from Nov until May would be nearly impossible.

Hopefully, you do get lucky, and your photos and recorded serial numbers, & photos clearly depicting each bicycle's serial number, will help in recovering these very nice classic bicycles. Nobody really ever thinks about it because normal people don't really ever consider theft (burglary) is likely from within our garage or when stored inside our homes. Yes, the probability of recovery of any bicycle theft is about zero. Law enforcement has greater priorities with more significant items, such as stolen cars etc. Vehicles are rarely recovered and they have a registered serial number with Title documenting ownership and needing a up to date official license plate(tag) to be legal. Some states do allow for BILL OF SALE in lieu of TITLE on vehicles more than fifteen years old, and some states do not. There are ways for criminals to effectively launder a stolen vehicle's title across several states, or they simply drive with a stolen license plate, or a "replica only--not legal for use" license plate that can be purchased for approx ~ $18 from at least a dozen vendors on ebay. Other effective ways for criminals are to swap vin number plate nearest the windshield with one in which they can obtain the legal title for. Police officers & Highway patrol officers rarely even look at the vin number plate there, and if they do to match the paper registration & proof of insurance card, they look quickly for less than two seconds to see that the numbers match.....which they would match.....they never notice that the vin number plate has been physically replaced.......they can't tell in such a brief observation that the rivets aren't exactly like factory equipment on that particular make/model..... (there are plenty of other "hidden vin number" locations on most all vehicles where the original vin# is stamped into the frame, sheetmetal, axle, etc but nobody ever looks at those unless the vehicle or its parts are found within a chop-shop or at the bottom of a lake or river, etc.) Didn't they catch the Oklahoma city bomber, that the feds eventually executed, from the vin stamping on part of the rear axle assembly of what was the rented large box truck?
Perhaps, if the burglary occured during daylight hours, you might canvass your neighborhood and ask your neighbors......perhaps someone has a doorbell or security camera that caught the suspects pickup truck with the bikes visible driving away........who knows you might get lucky with most of the tag number if it isn't a stolen truck with a stolen license plate. Likely, if the burglar(s) were in a vehicle, it was likely a pickup truck of some type, or less likely a Ford Econoline type van with no side windows, but an econoline-type van in a residential area where people are loading goods into the van Will Attract A Heckuva Lot More Suspicion than just folks loading goods into the back of a pickup truck.
You would be surprised at just how good the video resolution and field of capture is for today's security & doorbell cameras. My neighborhood which has very large homes and has been battling a wave of porch pirates since 2008 who tail the UPS, Fed-Ex, & Amazon delivery trucks, and then 30 seconds after the UPS driver/truck leaves out of sight, the porch pirate driver stops in front of the house & their passenger pirate runs fast to the porch and grabs the loot and runs back to the car, and off they go. Well, there are a couple of these teams that are now in prison because they didn't count on these very wealthy neighborhoods with older residents being hip to cameras and technology. They also didn't count on a retired district attorney being among the many victims. I guess that is one of many things they can think about while they sit most of the day in their jail cells. Yeah, cameras & license plate readers are something out of a George Orwell or Ray Bradbury book, but they do seem to be highly effective.


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