Bike Forums

Bike Forums (https://www.bikeforums.net/forum.php)
-   Classic & Vintage (https://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php?f=181)
-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

AngeloDolce 05-17-16 09:52 PM


Originally Posted by Narsinha (Post 18773940)
Hello Velocivixen,
thanks this is what i will try next! I am not really sure whether there is any stopper for the cone on the axle though, if i remember right (not at home now) the thread goes a long way 'in', from the right hand side, but will look for it.

@BigChief you wrote "...you don't have to position the axle. It ends up in the right place by it's self." So you also say that there is a definite stop for the cone, hmm.
I guess the exact point for switching gears properly is defined by the position of the right cone. When this position has been found, the bearings/racers are adjusted with the left cone and nut alone.
+ i usually adjust them in a way that there is some minimal play, because the tightening of the outer axle nuts will compress the whole assembly slightly, eliminating that play. Otherwise it may be too tight..


Today i will try to get the "H60" part off its thread, to get access to the inner gear and look for damage and proper lubrication. Cannot remove the axle without disassembling further.. :rolleyes:

Thanks all, will keep reporting, and asking ;)

There are 3 aspects that need to be assembled and adjusted (in order)

1. Internal parts of the hub
2. External parts of the hub
3. Shifter, especially indicator rod (rod that is inserted into hub)

The gears on the AB hub are the same as the AW; it uses a larger shell to accommodate the brake (I believe same dimensions as the AG Dynohub shell). The left cone is different, to accommodate the shell.

1. Internal parts of hub - gears, pawls, clutch etc.
As VV and BC noted, the drive (right) side cone is set to determine the gear placement. Since the gear cage and driver are in place when you put the cone on, they will limit how much you can tighten the right hand cone. When it is finger tight, back it off 1/4 - 1/2 turn so it will align correctly with the washer. All bearing adjustment is done with the left hand cone.

2. External parts - sprocket and spacers.
The AW (and AB) hubs have a dished sprocket and 2 spacers. You want to align the dishing and the 2 spacers so the sprocket is in line with the chain wheel. You should be able to see if the chain line is straight; if it is not you can reverse the sprocket dishing or change the order of the sprocket and spacers to fix the chain line.

You will also have anti rotation washers, chain tensioners and various spacers - use these to center the wheel in the rear drop outs. Unfortunately, this is likely to vary from bicycle to bicycle, so we may not be able to tell you the order for your bicycle.

To confirm your observations, my 28" wheel Gazelles have the rack and fenders attached to the bolts attaching the seat stays and chain stays, not the axle. (The 26" wheel Rudges have different frames and different attachments.)

3. Attach shifter and attach gears
Once the internal parts in (1) are assembled correctly, you can adjust the shifter. If you are not sure you have the correct indicator rod, I'd use Sheldon Brown's site to adjust the gears:
Sturmey-Archer Hubs, Adjustments

Other helpful links from Tony Hadland:

Disassemble AB (& AW)
https://hadland.files.wordpress.com/...gendismant.pdf
https://hadland.files.wordpress.com/...inddismant.pdf

Reassemble AB https://hadland.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/saab.pdf

Narsinha 05-18-16 01:20 AM

Hello AngeloDolce,
thank you again for the detailed explanation :thumb:
As said before it seems some parts are missing, will see whether i will be able to obtain them.

All the best,
Kai

DQRider 05-18-16 07:49 AM

A Man and His Bike
 
Here are a series of photos I took in the parking lot before the event. You have already seen our "Bobby" and his hotrod Dunelt. Here are the others that I had time for before we commenced the opening ceremonies.

First we have Jeff, with another vintage Dunelt, this one in a stunning blue and sporting a top-tube shifter.

http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/...psxchxezes.png


Then there was this fellow, without a nametag, who brought his rare Humber Sports:

http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/...psjlhyazhv.png


And finally, this dapper fellow (and I know we introduced ourselves, but I forgot to take notes), no name tag again, but with a lovely 5-speed Sprite. Note the sporty dual shifters on the top tube. This is another one I'd like to add to my collection.

http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/...psmbq4k47p.png

Tonight, I'll post a few shots of bikes unattended, parked at the various stops. Maybe I'll even include some I took of my beautiful DL-1 on the deserted streets of Wabasha just after sunrise. I'll have to fiddle with them a bit because some are just begging to be converted to B&W or Sepia Tone.

Salubrious 05-18-16 09:52 AM

^^The guy with the Humber is me.

noglider 05-18-16 10:15 AM


Originally Posted by arex (Post 18776372)
So...you're thinking that 260 is a weight that a Sports should be able to handle, then?

I'm saying your MTB sounds perfect, since it works for you. I don't know how a Sports would work for you.

w1gfh 05-18-16 11:44 AM


Originally Posted by arex (Post 18775658)
What's the rough maximum weight load that a Sports can carry, including the rider?

I had resolved to not try and ride mine again until I got my weight down to 240 or so, but I've been plateau'd at 260 for so long, I'm giving serious thought to going ahead and trying to ride it now, instead of later.

The trouble is, when I finished the bike last summer I weighed 330, and the frame flexed a LOT when I tried to ride it, enough to pull on both the rear brake cable and the shift cable, causing problems you can probably imagine. I'd like to avoid doing that again, because that can't be good for the frame.

Yay or nay? Wait, or give in to desire?

Legend has it that welds and lugwork got crappier in later years. If your 74 Sports frame was flexing a lot you may want to inspect the joints. Some say frames are not to blame, too narrow tires and too few rear wheel spokes are the weak points: lots of discussion here:http://www.bikeforums.net/clydesdale...ost-bikes.html

DQRider 05-18-16 11:46 AM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 18777598)
^^The guy with the Humber is me.

Ah, okay. I guess that means you now know who I am, too. Pleased to meet you again, sir. :)

AngeloDolce 05-18-16 11:51 AM


Originally Posted by Narsinha (Post 18776856)
Hello AngeloDolce,
thank you again for the detailed explanation http://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/thumb.gif
As said before it seems some parts are missing, will see whether i will be able to obtain them.

All the best,
Kai

Can you tell if they are internal parts (takes some effort to identify and find), or external parts (which are much easier to find and may not necessarily need to be Sturmey Archer specific)?

Salubrious 05-18-16 12:22 PM


Originally Posted by w1gfh (Post 18777939)
too few rear wheel spokes are the weak points: lots of discussion here:http://www.bikeforums.net/clydesdale...ost-bikes.html

The British 3-speeds for the most part have 40 spokes in the rear wheel in a 4-cross pattern. That's a pretty strong wheel!

arex 05-18-16 02:28 PM


Originally Posted by w1gfh (Post 18777939)
Legend has it that welds and lugwork got crappier in later years. If your 74 Sports frame was flexing a lot you may want to inspect the joints. Some say frames are not to blame, too narrow tires and too few rear wheel spokes are the weak points: lots of discussion here:http://www.bikeforums.net/clydesdale...ost-bikes.html

The joints looked okay. The seat stays had been freshly re-brazed. The wheels are freshly-built 36-spoke alloy rims.

Also, I didn't directly observe the frame flexing...however, when I was actually on the bike, the rear brake dragged and I couldn't shift into low gear, whereas the rear brake did NOT drag and I could shift the hub freely when I was OFF the bike. I inferred that the the frame was flexing to the point where the brake and shift cables were being pulled from the change in geometry. If the lug joints were loose, I think the powdercoat would've shown cracking or other damage.

And again, I was very heavy last summer. I've lost 70# since then...I wanted to lose more before trying to ride my Sports again, but I really want to get out and ride it. I doubt 20 pounds is going to make much difference, but I wanted to be sure.

arex 05-18-16 02:30 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 18778104)
The British 3-speeds for the most part have 40 spokes in the rear wheel in a 4-cross pattern. That's a pretty strong wheel!

I believe the newer ones (post-1965?) were 36h front and back, in a 3-cross pattern. Don't quote me on that, though.

agmetal 05-18-16 02:33 PM

I have two 40-spoke rear wheels, from 1937 and 1975, that are both laced 3-cross

Salubrious 05-18-16 03:02 PM

My 1972 Superbe came to me with 40 holes in a 4 cross pattern, as were the rear wheels on both of my Humber Sports (but they are from the 50s). I've yet to see a 36-hole wheel on a British 3-speed; not saying they are not out there, but that's the sort of thing I would expect to see on an American bike. When I built up the wheels with CR-18s I used a 3-cross pattern.

FWIW when I first got the Superbe I weighed about 215 pounds and had no troubles with the wheels at all. I've lost about 20 pounds since then- loosing the weight around my gut has done a lot more for how fast I am than loosing the weight of the steel rims :)

BigChief 05-18-16 03:46 PM


Originally Posted by arex (Post 18778493)
The joints looked okay. The seat stays had been freshly re-brazed. The wheels are freshly-built 36-spoke alloy rims.

Also, I didn't directly observe the frame flexing...however, when I was actually on the bike, the rear brake dragged and I couldn't shift into low gear, whereas the rear brake did NOT drag and I could shift the hub freely when I was OFF the bike. I inferred that the the frame was flexing to the point where the brake and shift cables were being pulled from the change in geometry. If the lug joints were loose, I think the powdercoat would've shown cracking or other damage.

And again, I was very heavy last summer. I've lost 70# since then...I wanted to lose more before trying to ride my Sports again, but I really want to get out and ride it. I doubt 20 pounds is going to make much difference, but I wanted to be sure.

I think you have a good excuse...errr...reason to go shopping for a nice DL-1. After all, everyone should have at least one roadster anyway and it would be fun for the rest of us here to see what you came up with. Makes perfect sense to me.

SirMike1983 05-18-16 05:58 PM

The Sports converted to 36-36 in 1973-74. The DL-1 continued with 40 rear later into the late 1970s.

Loose Chain 05-18-16 06:29 PM


Originally Posted by w1gfh (Post 18777939)
Legend has it that welds and lugwork got crappier in later years. If your 74 Sports frame was flexing a lot you may want to inspect the joints. Some say frames are not to blame, too narrow tires and too few rear wheel spokes are the weak points: lots of discussion here:http://www.bikeforums.net/clydesdale...ost-bikes.html

The 66 and 73 I have are very similar in workmanship. The 78 I have is rather not as nice being kindly and the two 80 bikes are back to being clean and neat (but different). I do not think the noodliness of these bikes has to do with the year, rather that they are small tube sizes with generous angles and wheelbase. The 66 23 I have is noticeably more mushy than my 74 21 which in comparison actually feels rather sporty. The frames are soft, maybe dead is too cruel. But I have ridden bikes much worse, the Raleigh tubing is fine for the purpose, these are not racing bikes as I get reminded here. There is a little spring in them so they are not really dead (not at all like a department store bike, not at all) once I retune my bike feel but an Italian racer of Columbus or a high end Japanese bike of Tange Prestige they are not.

Kind of like comparing the handling of my old Rubicon Wrangler on 4 inch suspension lift against a Honda S2000, like what would one expect, the S2000 is sporty, hey, it is a sports car! But my Wrangler could easily and really could, if need be, drive over it. Yeah, the Wrangler handles like a mushy boat driven by a drunk sailor! Road feel, like what?

As far as spoke count, 36 is plenty for my 170 pounds.

SirMike1983 05-18-16 08:04 PM

I think of the DL-1 as the Ford Model T of the bicycle world and the Sports (DL-22) as something like a Ford Model A. The old VW Beetle comes to mind as well. They were early-to-mid century utilitarian vehicles, good ones, but still utilitarian. Even in the 1970s, the Sports model bikes were functioning with mostly 1930s era technology. I think that's exactly the appeal.

gna 05-18-16 08:25 PM


Originally Posted by arex (Post 18778500)
I believe the newer ones (post-1965?) were 36h front and back, in a 3-cross pattern. Don't quote me on that, though.

They made the change around 1973. The chain wheel lost its braces, the self-adjusting brakes appeared, and wheels became 36/36.

It seems to have been a gradual process, though. My wife's bike originally had self-adjusting brakes, but 40/32 spoking and a chainwheel with braces. Hub says 72-8.

Loose Chain 05-18-16 09:04 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 18779276)
I think of the DL-1 as the Ford Model T of the bicycle world and the Sports (DL-22) as something like a Ford Model A. The old VW Beetle comes to mind as well. They were early-to-mid century utilitarian vehicles, good ones, but still utilitarian. Even in the 1970s, the Sports model bikes were functioning with mostly 1930s era technology. I think that's exactly the appeal.

I think you are right, regardless of the year, these are antique bikes that function with 30s technology largely and that is exactly the appeal to me. That and I loved them growing up. And again, while we referred to them as racers we were hardly so ignorant to actually think they were real race bikes ;).

So, what is wrong with the self adjusting brakes that seem to actually self adjust nicely?

Of the E3Ss I have seen my 73 is as nicely built, it is very cleanly brazed and painted. Guess it depends who was at work that day.

The step through bikes are noticeably soft in my opinion.

When I was a kid (60s term for a child) we would put a piece of leather, in a loop, on the hubs to keep them clean, does anyone still do this?

artclone 05-18-16 10:08 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 18777598)
^^The guy with the Humber is me.

Slick. Are those forks twin bladed or something?

Velocivixen 05-18-16 11:54 PM

@Salubrious - nice to see you and your bike. Very nice look.

noglider 05-19-16 06:59 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18779424)
When I was a kid (60s term for a child) we would put a piece of leather, in a loop, on the hubs to keep them clean, does anyone still do this?

I do, but rather than a piece of leather, I use a rubber band which is continuous. I do it so people how I got the rubber band "in there." Obviously, I do it when I'm lacing spokes into a wheel I'm building. I'd like to use something more durable than a rubber band. Any suggestions for durable continuous loops?

JohnDThompson 05-19-16 07:52 AM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 18780007)
rather than a piece of leather, I use a rubber band which is continuous. I do it so people how I got the rubber band "in there." Obviously, I do it when I'm lacing spokes into a wheel I'm building. I'd like to use something more durable than a rubber band. Any suggestions for durable continuous loops?

Get a silicone O-ring from the hardware store. They come in a variety of sizes, so you should be able to find one that fits a hub shell.

arex 05-19-16 07:52 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 18778712)
I think you have a good excuse...errr...reason to go shopping for a nice DL-1. After all, everyone should have at least one roadster anyway and it would be fun for the rest of us here to see what you came up with. Makes perfect sense to me.

But...​why?

arex 05-19-16 07:54 AM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 18780007)
I do, but rather than a piece of leather, I use a rubber band which is continuous. I do it so people how I got the rubber band "in there." Obviously, I do it when I'm lacing spokes into a wheel I'm building. I'd like to use something more durable than a rubber band. Any suggestions for durable continuous loops?

Nylon strap, maybe?


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:19 AM.


Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.