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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

1989Pre 08-29-23 01:15 PM


Originally Posted by swampyankee2 (Post 22999197)
My bike stable is full at the moment, but I've been tempted by this Triumph on FB Marketplatz, originally offered for $100. When they lowered to $50 I sent the ad to my Triumph sportscar friend telling him it would be perfect for riding around some of the Triumph meets and autojumbles. When he said he had been looking for one of those I went and bought it for him. It's dusty and a bit rusty, but not nearly as bad as my cellar find Sports. The Raleigh Record tyres pumped right up and are holding air. I'm tempted to give it an oily rag and 00 steel wool resto. I've yet to read the date on the rear hub but I'll guess its mid-late 60's.

That should look really great once oiled up. Yeah, reflectors on pedals, cable anchor bolts and C34-style chainset mid-late 60's.

swampyankee2 08-29-23 04:14 PM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22999256)
That should look really great once oiled up. Yeah, reflectors on pedals, cable anchor bolts and C34-style chainset mid-late 60's.

checking for a serial number or date code on this Triumph. No s/n found in the usual places on ghe frame. The 3 speed hub has a "4" but no 2 digit year code.
My Robin Hood Lenton Sports 10 speed has a dodgy serial number stamped on the bottom of the bottom bracket. It seems the off brands of Raleigh werent well documented.
Anyplace else to check?

vintagebicycle 08-30-23 07:42 AM

In NJ, $60.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...20785616906741


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f7f22bf325.jpg

oldspokes 08-30-23 11:16 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 22998854)
The tires are still the biggest drawback of the Schwinn 3 speeds. The 597mm size has gradually whittled down to the Kenda straight tread tires. Sunlite also markets the Kenda, but it's the same tire. There were previously some other offerings, like the Schwalbe club tires sold mainly in England, but those are apparently long gone. If the Kenda ceases to be made, then it will really be a hard time.

Tall frame Schwinn 3 speeds from before 1965 are not easy to find. Some of the 1950s models in particular rarely appear with the the taller 23-24 inch frame. There probably was not a whole lot of demand in the US for them in those days. The market for youth bikes like the middleweights was more lucrative in the US, and it probably was not easy to compete with the British makers for three speeds given that they had years of experience and machinery set up for them. Even so, a tall frame Schwinn 3 speed from before 1965 is a nice addition to any collection if you can find one.

My '56 is a different frame than my '62, it still uses the older style 'Knuckle top' fork and the early style chain guard. Its a bit shorter then the 23" ' 62, but not by much. I don't think they marketed multiple size frames until 1958. An inch more of seat post and stem showing and the two are almost equal. For some reason though I like the ride of the S5 rims better than the S6 rims on the '56. I think its got to do with the width and how they hold the tire. The same tires show much wider on the S5 rims.

Years back I owned a burgundy '49 New World with a New Departure hub. The bike was super heavy and in rough shape. I had taken the bike completely apart, soaked off all the rust leaving about 40% of the original paint at best. It was missing the rear half of the rear fender and the chain guard. It rode great but was a tank weight wise. It also had almost no chrome, with black paint where most had chrome. My guess was that someone mixed the parts from a '49 and a war time bike a long time ago. I found it in a barn on Long Island in the late 80's. I sold it about 15 years ago. It got little use due to it having so much bare metal and its ride was very hard for some reason. I sold it to a company that said they buy vintage items for prop rentals and restaurants.

Those Kenda tires should be a lot cheaper, I know what the local bike shops pay for them, and even if they double their cost, it doesn't come close to what most are charging. Part of the problem I have is that there are no more local bike shops that stock any parts, if you want tires, its a special order, with added shipping for only your two tires. A pair of those should be no more than $20 but with shipping and them jacking up the price 300% they're $80/pr or more locally. I had one shop turn to his computer, which was already on eBay, and look up two Kenda 597 tires, showed me that the seller, (not him), had them up for $74,99 with shipping, he then turns to me and says he can get me those for $150 and asks me if I wanted them, 'the sale was ending soon'. He shows me that they're $75 on eBay, then quotes me double that price while showing me the ad he's about to buy them from. Needless to say I walked away and never went back there. They were selling Schwinn, Kent, and Next bicycles, the exact models that Walmart sells for half as much. He may have just been buying them from Walmart.

I'll always likely own both Schwinn and English bikes, I've got a late 50's Dunelt and a couple of 60's Raleighs that have been with me for decades. I go back and forth, when I start doing a few Schwinn bikes, I tend to jump from one to another until I end up with an English bike on the rack and it usually becomes a string of those for while. The line of bikes awaiting my attention is pretty long, and I'll likely never get through them all but I suppose I'm determined to try.

SirMike1983 08-30-23 11:58 AM

The tall frames were offered from the beginning onward, but only made in limited numbers. Most are the middle frame size. Sometimes the tall frame is marketed in the catalogs, sometimes not. If someone had a complete collection of dealer-side price lists, it might show them better.

I just picked up a '57 tall frame Traveler three speed. That also has the torpedo/knuckle type tubular stem. But you are right that the frames changed a little bit around 1958-59. The flat forks appear and the seat stay connections change a bit. They're all kind of heavy.

You make a good point about some bikes just riding harshly, for no apparent reason. I've had a couple bikes which were kind of hard, harsh riders, for reasons I never understood. They weren't much different from other three speeds I had, and yet the rides were pretty rough.

I go back and forth as well, and I enjoy having both the Schwinn and the English types. I rode the 1959 Traveler a couple of nights ago and last night road a 1953 Raleigh Lenton. They're both good riders, though different in their own way.

missingspoke 08-30-23 06:51 PM

I have three older Schwinns, all three speeds, and four newer "Racer' single speed models. A few have been mine since the 70's, a few are recent purchases.
The oldest Racer, a 65, is a 21" frame, then there's a later 65 in a 22" frame, and a 69 and '70 in 23".
The older bikes are '52, 54, 55, and 56. Not all are Traveler's though, one of the '56 bikes says "Tourist" on the chainguard, and has stainless fenders, the other '56 has chrome fenders, and Traveler on the chainguard. The '54 is a Traveler, the 52 says Varsity on the Chainguard. I bought all but one from the same place about 19 years ago, the fourth, the '56 Tourist came from a farmworker who said he bought it in New Mexico when he got his first paycheck. It needed tires and he didn't want to pay so much for tires so I traded him for a newer mountain bike. All three are the same light blue color, the 'Tourist' is faded a bit more than the others and all the fenders are pretty rough. They all have Sturmey Archer hubs.
I had another, smaller 3 speed Traveler, I believe that one was a '60 model that had a Schwinn Approved hub made in West Germany. All but one of the blue 50's models have BF Goodrich Town and Country tires on them on S6 rims. All of the tires are in really nice shape considering they're likely over 50 years old.
The '52 has one BFG, and one Schwinn Whirlwind' tire on it that's barely holding together. I have a pair of Western Flyer branded 597 tires for it when I get the chance.
I've got several Raleigh and Robin Hood bikes, most are 23" models except one 19" Robin Hood that I use for a loaner, and two ladies models, a 67 Sprite, and a 68 Sports, both in 21".

Ride wise, they all vary a bit, The biggest thing I notice right away is the seating position. One the English bikes, I'm sitting over the handlebars, on the Schwinns I'm reaching out to the bars. This makes the Schwinn feel much longer than it is. I have to move my knees out of the way to turn at low speeds on the English bikes, but not on the Schwinns.
On flat ground I can't say I have much preference but when it comes to even a slight hill, the English bikes are by far the better choice. Even though all have similar gearing the Schwinns just take more leg power to push them up a hill. The Schwinns just seem to waste more energy than the Raleigh's do.
My first Schwinn in this style was a late 40's model New World Tourist, It had the same frame as my 52 but with a 3 piece crank.

The best part about the three speed Schwinns is that no one wants them, they're always cheap. The vintage Schwinn guys all want the balloon tire bikes, and others want the lighter English bikes.

Sedgemop 08-30-23 08:28 PM

Here's a Clubman in need of rescue. I might be up to the task.

Raleigh Clubman Bike-1950 - US $200.00
EBAY IL ClubmanMost original parts. Working order. May need new inner tubes. Hasn’t been ridden in 15 years.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/a3oAA...cL/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/QEsAA...cM/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/DxoAA...cP/s-l1600.jpg

dbhouston 08-30-23 09:00 PM

1974-ish LTD-3
 
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b0ba1c1c7e.jpg
I love these as much for the project as for any actual utility. Always satisfying.

bikamper 08-31-23 05:28 AM


Originally Posted by Sedgemop (Post 23000639)
Here's a Clubman in need of rescue. I might be up to the task.

Raleigh Clubman Bike-1950 - US $200.00
EBAY IL ClubmanMost original parts. Working order. May need new inner tubes. Hasn’t been ridden in 15 years.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/a3oAA...cL/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/QEsAA...cM/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/DxoAA...cP/s-l1600.jpg

Aw, man. That's nearby and I need another project like I need another hole in my head. Thankfully, it breaks my rule of 'No more than a benny for a three speed'. Even a Clubman.

Sedgemop 08-31-23 05:37 AM


Originally Posted by bikamper (Post 23000804)
Aw, man. That's nearby and I need another project like I need another hole in my head. Thankfully, it breaks my rule of 'No more than a benny for a three speed'. Even a Clubman.

I bet this one could be had for $100. Anyway, I hear you on the projects. I got enough holes in my head too.

SirMike1983 08-31-23 07:33 AM

At $100, the Clubman project is a good deal. At $200, it depends on what you have there. If you have good original wheels too, $200 is pretty good for that.

The fenders are missing, as are apparently the oddball fender mounting screws for those front mounts. Looks like the back screws might be there. It will need a decent saddle. The crank set looks right. The wheels are a question mark - big ticket item if you don't have them, but if they're original it's a huge plus. Bars and stem are a preference thing, but it would have originally had drop bars. If the seat post is hiduminium, another plus. It has the headset/fork clip. The frame should be checked for kickstand damage. It looks like regular axle nuts rather than the more desirable (but less practical) wingnuts.

Worth going and looking at it for $200, just be sure you add to the cost any parts you need to source.

The front fender is from a Scwhinn Traveler - good piece but goes on another bike.

Ged117 08-31-23 12:17 PM

Square taper BB conversion
 
Hi fellows, I'm working on a square taper conversion for my '60s Triumph three-speed. Trying to find the right sized 5 or 7 code spindle to use with the original cups so I can install my square taper aluminum crankset (I have a cool steel chainwheel which will look the part) - my local co-op is unfortunately short on 5 or 7 code spindles The one I did find was far too long and the chainline was unworkable. I think its the 5N or a 70mm Italian spindle I am looking for.

Anyone try this before? cudak888 I know you've done this or attempted with a single chainring crank - any insights?

Cheers

Salubrious 08-31-23 01:52 PM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 22993887)
Never heard of the Bates brand but you can have this one for a mere $1200 (and that's the reduced price!) in NJ.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...12933231268104

https://scontent.fric1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...kw&oe=64EC876C

That sounds cheap to me! Bates is at the top end of the top end. They employ Reynold 'Cantiflex' tubing which is only made for Bates. This is one of the stiffest and lightest steel frames you can get- the Cantiflex tubing is why. The Diadrant fork was thus added (look at the fork at the link above) which has two bends, meant to smooth out the ride. Someone should pick this up!



Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 23001223)
Hi fellows, I'm working on a square taper conversion for my '60s Triumph three-speed. Trying to find the right sized 5 or 7 code spindle to use with the original cups so I can install my square taper aluminum crankset (I have a cool steel chainwheel which will look the part) - my local co-op is unfortunately short on 5 or 7 code spindles The one I did find was far too long and the chainline was unworkable. I think its the 5N I am looking for.

Anyone try this before? cudak888 I know you've done this or attempted with a single chainring crank - any insights?

Cheers

If you want to do square taper on a Raleigh 3 speed frame, seems to me Chris King makes a bottom bracket assembly that fits the Raleigh thread.

clubman 08-31-23 01:57 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 23001223)
Hi fellows, I'm working on a square taper conversion for my '60s Triumph three-speed. Trying to find the right sized 5 or 7 code spindle to use with the original cups so I can install my square taper aluminum crankset (I have a cool steel chainwheel which will look the part) - my local co-op is unfortunately short on 5 or 7 code spindles The one I did find was far too long and the chainline was unworkable. I think its the 5N or a 70mm Italian spindle I am looking for.

Anyone try this before? cudak888 I know you've done this or attempted with a single chainring crank - any insights?

Cheers

Phil Woods BB's also come with Raleigh threads. Only good for a Phil unit of course.

Salubrious 08-31-23 02:33 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 23001360)
Phil Woods BB's also come with Raleigh threads. Only good for a Phil unit of course.

Hm. I bet I'm wrong and its Phil Woods I was thinking of.

Sedgemop 08-31-23 10:34 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 23000877)
At $100, the Clubman project is a good deal. At $200, it depends on what you have there. If you have good original wheels too, $200 is pretty good for that.

The fenders are missing, as are apparently the oddball fender mounting screws for those front mounts. Looks like the back screws might be there. It will need a decent saddle. The crank set looks right. The wheels are a question mark - big ticket item if you don't have them, but if they're original it's a huge plus. Bars and stem are a preference thing, but it would have originally had drop bars. If the seat post is hiduminium, another plus. It has the headset/fork clip. The frame should be checked for kickstand damage. It looks like regular axle nuts rather than the more desirable (but less practical) wingnuts.

Worth going and looking at it for $200, just be sure you add to the cost any parts you need to source.

The front fender is from a Scwhinn Traveler - good piece but goes on another bike.

If I make a run at this one, I'll definitely offer $100. I suspect it'll sit for a long time at $200. If I do go look at this one, I may seek your advice first. You mind a few questions?

SirMike1983 09-01-23 07:39 AM


Originally Posted by Sedgemop (Post 23001789)
If I make a run at this one, I'll definitely offer $100. I suspect it'll sit for a long time at $200. If I do go look at this one, I may seek your advice first. You mind a few questions?

That's fine, I'll try to answer them as best I can. It has been for sale for awhile so you are probably right that you can do a little better than $200 for it.

Sedgemop 09-01-23 07:48 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 23001993)
That's fine, I'll try to answer them as best I can. It has been for sale for awhile so you are probably right that you can do a little better than $200 for it.

Thanks, SirMike. Your knowledge and taste in these classic 3 speeds is appreciated.

bluesteak 09-01-23 04:29 PM

S5 hub dog ring
 
I am working on the s5 hubs I bought on eBay.
I have been opening them up and pulling out the internals intact.

The second hub I opened had the locknut that holds the dog ring(has 138) was loose and the tabs unbent on the lock washer. Are there specs for the proper positioning of the dog ring?

1989Pre 09-02-23 07:10 AM

I know this Iverson isn't British, but I just wanted to ask what kind of shifter is on this bike. This is the only photo I have of it, but have never seen this type of set-up before:
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ceb6c766f2.jpg

thumpism 09-02-23 07:14 AM

Twist grip, used primarily by Shimano but also by Sturmey and, presumably, others.

SirMike1983 09-02-23 08:21 PM

That's a Shimano twist grip running to a 333 hub.

dedhed 09-02-23 08:50 PM


Originally Posted by bluesteak (Post 23002531)
I am working on the s5 hubs I bought on eBay.
I have been opening them up and pulling out the internals intact.

The second hub I opened had the locknut that holds the dog ring(has 138) was loose and the tabs unbent on the lock washer. Are there specs for the proper positioning of the dog ring?

​​​​​​

​​​​​​

oldspokes 09-03-23 01:43 PM


Originally Posted by bluesteak (Post 23002531)
I am working on the s5 hubs I bought on eBay.
I have been opening them up and pulling out the internals intact.

The second hub I opened had the locknut that holds the dog ring(has 138) was loose and the tabs unbent on the lock washer. Are there specs for the proper positioning of the dog ring?


I don't see any specs stated in any of the paperwork from the old S5. Its been a while since I had one apart but I don't remember it being any big deal. I'd put the axle in an axle vise and snug up the nut and fold up the tabs. Sometimes if you flip the lock washer you can get a fresh spot to bend up. I do remember finding them loose, but not unlocked, as if they were only finger tight and then the tabs were locked but most were at least a bit tight and locked in place. I do remember a few that didn't have the tabs locked, and they apparently were that way for a long time. I'm not sure if I have any of those here to compare to in my piles of parts but if I get the chance I'll take a look when I get home.

bluesteak 09-03-23 01:46 PM

S5
 
Thanks for the videos. I had already watched the s5 video, and it seems like he stopped, and didn’t take apart the sun gear assembly.

I took a closer look after I posted, and actually took the dog ring off. Once I had it apart I could see that it locks the large sun gear when the rod is retracted. It has a squarish center hole that needs to fit snugly over four “ears” on the axle. Once I forced it down over the ears it was locked to the axle and appears to be in the right position.


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