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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

bikamper 02-25-10 10:02 PM

Chris-That fork crown on the Phillips looks similar to a Dunelt.

Chris_in_Miami 02-25-10 10:06 PM


Originally Posted by bikamper (Post 10452541)
Chris-That fork crown on the Phillips looks similar to a Dunelt.

Yep, I've seen them on a few Rudges also.

MnHPVA Guy 02-25-10 10:25 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 10452067)
The 3-speed fixed gear sounds like fun.

Yes they are fun. In fact the word "fun" seems wholly inadequate.


The new one is not available separately yet, is it?
Your local bike shop can order you one through United Bicycle Supply. I've had mine for 3 weeks now. If your LBS isn't interested in ordering one you can get one through Bike Tools Etc


And I bet it's expensive.
Nope. MSRP for hub kit with shifter is $225 or less than 1/2 what you would pay for an old ACS w/o a shifter. I think it's safe to assume the new one is much tougher. I had thought I'd prefer the ACS' tighter ratios. But now that I have some miles on the S3X I like the ratios.

Sixty Fiver 02-25-10 10:34 PM

I also like the decision that Sun Race made when they decided to give the S3X a wider range as it makes it pretty versatile... have been trying to find out what range of cogs they are offering as these are not interchangeable with anything.

I would not be happy using a 12 or 13 tooth cog unless it was on my folder... ;)

old's'cool 02-25-10 10:54 PM


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 10452536)
The SA AW is considered to be one of the most efficient drives of any type with a 97% efficiency... because of cross chaining and their susceptibility to contamination a derailer system can lose efficiency very quickly.

This only speaks to the drive's efficiency... a wider gearing range can make a rider more efficient even if the drive is not.

Yeah, I figured that would draw some controversy. Needless to say, I am not one to cross-chain or let my chain & sprockets get appreciably contaminated. If I remember my mechanical engineering classes, planetary gears losses (compared to a chain drive) come from sliding action of gears (i.e. when not in direct drive) plus the multiplicity of gears.
bikcamper, great link!, I really enjoyed the tech article by Jim Gill.:thumb:

benajah 02-25-10 11:36 PM

Beautiful bikes. One thing I miss on BF because I don't look at the vintage section much is just old fashioned, solid, reliable bikes. Nobody made this work in the 20th century quite like the British did. Perhaps the Italians perfected the racing bike, but the British perfected the everyday bike.

MnHPVA Guy 02-25-10 11:45 PM


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 10452678)
I also like the decision that Sun Race made when they decided to give the S3X a wider range as it makes it pretty versatile... have been trying to find out what range of cogs they are offering as these are not interchangeable with anything.

I would not be happy using a 12 or 13 tooth cog unless it was on my folder... ;)

3/32"are available in 12 and 13. 1/8" are available in 12 through 18t. Cogs are inexpensive.

I got 16, 17 and 18t. Currently running 46/17 on the left side of the bike with 145mm cranks.

I think the splines are the same as Shimano Cassette cogs.

Sixty Fiver 02-25-10 11:57 PM


Originally Posted by MnHPVA Guy (Post 10452914)
3/32"are available in 12 and 13. 1/8" are available in 12 through 18t. Cogs are inexpensive.

I got 16, 17 and 18t. Currently running 46/17 on the left side of the bike with 145mm cranks.

I think the splines are the same as Shimano Cassette cogs.

The new S3x uses a 9 spline pattern (like Shimano cassettes) but have been told it is not compatible with Shimano cassette cogs... thinking that it might use 9 identical splines like the old Uniglide.

I will have to look up those cog specs although one would not want to run a ramped cog with shorter teeth on a fixed drive anyways.

rhm 02-26-10 07:29 AM


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 10452536)
The SA AW is considered to be one of the most efficient drives of any type with a 97% efficiency... because of cross chaining and their susceptibility to contamination a derailer system can lose efficiency very quickly.

This only speaks to the drive's efficiency... a wider gearing range can make a rider more efficient even if the drive is not.

The new Sturmey Archer 5 speed wide range hub has the same ratios as the AW plus a super low and a super high. The gearing is:
1 ----0.62
2-----0.75
3-----1.00
4-----1.33
5-----1.60

I've ridden this about seven miles so far, so I'm not going to present myself as an exert yet! But my initial reaction is that the gears are too far apart. That is, I really miss the close ratios of my Sturmey Archer 8 speed hubs. I'm sure I'll get used to it, though. Photos to follow!

MnHPVA Guy 02-26-10 08:18 AM


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 10452946)
The new S3x uses a 9 spline pattern (like Shimano cassettes) but have been told it is not compatible with Shimano cassette cogs... thinking that it might use 9 identical splines like the old Uniglide.

I just checked. You have been misinformed.


I will have to look up those cog specs although one would not want to run a ramped cog with shorter teeth on a fixed drive anyways.
The advantage is that you can use some of the higher quality cogs, such as Surly, that are designed for SS conversions on cassette hubs. And of course the SA cogs could be used as a lower cost option for SS/Cassette conversions.

I'm fairly certain that Shimano BMX cogs are also compatible. These appear to be the same quality as the Sturmeys but may be more readily available in your area.

noglider 02-26-10 09:01 AM


Originally Posted by rhm (Post 10453598)
The new Sturmey Archer 5 speed wide range hub has the same ratios as the AW plus a super low and a super high. The gearing is:
1 ----0.62
2-----0.75
3-----1.00
4-----1.33
5-----1.60

I've ridden this about seven miles so far, so I'm not going to present myself as an exert yet! But my initial reaction is that the gears are too far apart. That is, I really miss the close ratios of my Sturmey Archer 8 speed hubs. I'm sure I'll get used to it, though. Photos to follow!

Those might be the same ratios as the old SA 5-speed hub. And I have the same complaint about it that I do about the AW. I think the better condition you are in, the closer you want your ratios to be. I'm in pretty good shape, and those steps are annoying. When I shift down, I don't want to slow down that much. So the only way to adapt is to either (1) not shift down and pedal harder when the going gets a little tough or (2) shift down and reduce speed more than I want to. Usually I would do #2, which means a net slowdown.

What are the ratios of 8-speed hubs?

noglider 02-26-10 09:04 AM


Originally Posted by benajah (Post 10452890)
Beautiful bikes. One thing I miss on BF because I don't look at the vintage section much is just old fashioned, solid, reliable bikes. Nobody made this work in the 20th century quite like the British did. Perhaps the Italians perfected the racing bike, but the British perfected the everyday bike.

The Dutch would probably argue with you about that. And the Japanese, too. There is a thread -- I think it's in the commuting subforum -- entitled "Jitensha, Phillipines" where a bike shop owner in Jitensha shows the bikes he is refurbishing. They are mostly Japanese bikes. The Japanese are making everyday errand bikes with a huge variety of designs and features. They are all very different from each other. It shows how serious the bicycle is in Asia.

AL NZ 02-26-10 11:04 AM


Originally Posted by AL NZ (Post 10436632)
Tell me, please, Bicycle Repairman, what you know of the Raleigh Tourist.

I bought one here in UK, blue with white head tube, scruffy vinyl Brooks ( ? the low point of Brooks' history), 26" wheels with Westrick rims (very rusty), Sturmey 3 speed (which aint working properly and needs dismantling and cleaning), front dynohub, and all transfers present and "patinated".

So it is pretty original.

And man, is it heavy. I was planning on doing it up but haven't yet.

In 4 months I return to NZ and I am trying to decide whether to ship it home or sell it on

But I am in the early throes of the Disease, and I can still recognise my problem. So I am trying to stop it getting to marriage-threatening proportions, so I may sell it here in UK


All this talk has got me out in the carport to check my hub.

The Trent Tourist has a SW hub, dated 58 6 , so that makes sense.
I bought in off ebay for 40 quid and was told it was in 'good working order', but the gears slip! I have done nothing to it over winter, but was planning on pulling hub apart and cleaning it. But now I have read the negative press about the SW, I am wondering what is the best plan for the old bike



This bike

mickey85 02-26-10 11:47 AM

Where exactly does one find a Benelux conversion? I've been looking online, and just about the only place I can find it is that there is one on Ebay for $200...I'm not spending that much for 3 extra gears.

Sixty Fiver 02-26-10 12:56 PM


Originally Posted by mickey85 (Post 10454619)
Where exactly does one find a Benelux conversion? I've been looking online, and just about the only place I can find it is that there is one on Ebay for $200...I'm not spending that much for 3 extra gears.

I guess I was lucky to get mine for nothing... and the 3 speed conversion gives you 6 extra speeds :)

Doing the math I would have 9 unique gearings with 10% jumps and a gearing range from 42 to 91 gear inches as I cannot change the cyclo triple cogset from it's 19/21/23 and they also made a double conversion.

A lower cost solution... 2 Shimano 3 speed cogs can replace one SA cog and one could use any decent deraileur for switching duties and in this way you have more choice in cogs.

With a 2 tooth jump the spacing between the 6 speeds is 10%, with a 1 tooth jump it is 6%, and there is no gear duplication... shifting one of these takes a little practice if you want to sequence the gears but I treat them as a high low range.

mickey85 02-26-10 01:22 PM

How does one do this? Put the sprockets on opposite (so that the dish separates them)?

gna 02-26-10 01:29 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 10449499)
I think one of my problems with three-speeds is that they're too reliable. They don't require enough tinkering from me.

Just buy another one. I currently have 5.

Sixty Fiver 02-26-10 01:35 PM


Originally Posted by mickey85 (Post 10455015)
How does one do this? Put the sprockets on opposite (so that the dish separates them)?

This is an old thread...

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...eed+dual+drive

Forrest was just a baby and hadn't been fixed...

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/Forrest2.jpg

politicalgeek 02-26-10 01:39 PM

I really regret selling off the one 3 speed I had. Regret not pulling the trigger on the Dunelt I found later.

One of these days I'll find another English 3 Speed and have another project. Beautiful, practical bikes.

noglider 02-26-10 02:11 PM

politicalgeek, you will find a good English 3-speed. Just be patient. Some are going for well over $150, which I won't pay. I got mine a couple of months ago on Craigslist, for only $60. It was hardly ridden, has chrome fenders, and everything on it is original. Lie down like an alligator, watch, and wait.

politicalgeek 02-26-10 02:21 PM

It'll come, I know. My luck with CL is that I usually find stuff when I am ready.

Working on a bent and within 3 weeks I found 2 excellent donor bikes for $50 a piece.

Been giving some thought to making my Schwinn Le Tour a single speed. Sure enough a 27" single speed wheel set shows up on CL, and 2 days later a crankset and new tires.

I'll probably troll ebay for a frame. I have a NOS SA hub and it would be fun to build it up from scratch.

PolishGuy 02-26-10 04:00 PM

AL NZ- You may want to look into pulling the SW mechanicals from the hub shell and slipping in an AW gearset in it's place. Should be a fairly straighforward swap. I think Sheldon Brown or Tony Hadland had info on doing this. I put a FW into an AW shell until I got new wheels built and the FW worked just fine. Hopefully you will have the same results. PG.

cobrabyte 02-26-10 04:37 PM

This is such a great thread! So much useful info, I had to print and save some of it.

Thanks for the kind words on my bikes a few pages back as well.

bikamper 02-26-10 08:17 PM


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 10454887)
I guess I was lucky to get mine for nothing... and the 3 speed conversion gives you 6 extra speeds :)

Doing the math I would have 9 unique gearings with 10% jumps and a gearing range from 42 to 91 gear inches as I cannot change the cyclo triple cogset from it's 19/21/23 and they also made a double conversion.

A lower cost solution... 2 Shimano 3 speed cogs can replace one SA cog and one could use any decent deraileur for switching duties and in this way you have more choice in cogs.

With a 2 tooth jump the spacing between the 6 speeds is 10%, with a 1 tooth jump it is 6%, and there is no gear duplication... shifting one of these takes a little practice if you want to sequence the gears but I treat them as a high low range.

I have a triple cog set on a 1950 AM that I also got gratis but mine is a 14/19/24 and I'm not so sure it's a Cyclo because of the tooth count. With the AM I have a range of 44.8 to 102.5 with a 46t chain ring. Right now, I'm using a Campy Valentino to move the chain but I have used both a Benelux mkVII and a Favorit PWB. The PWB may be put back to work.

MnHPVA Guy 02-26-10 10:11 PM


Originally Posted by PolishGuy (Post 10455695)
AL NZ- You may want to look into pulling the SW mechanicals from the hub shell and slipping in an AW gearset in it's place. Should be a fairly straighforward swap. I think Sheldon Brown or Tony Hadland had info on doing this. I put a FW into an AW shell until I got new wheels built and the FW worked just fine. Hopefully you will have the same results. PG.

Won't work. The SW shell is smaller. So much smaller you can't reuse the spokes to lace an AW into your wheel.

58 6 would be late in the production run so Al may be OK if he strips his hub and thoroughly cleans it. SWs could not tolerate anything sticky on the pawls.

See; http://my.ohio.voyager.net/~bdhayes/sa/sw.htm for good info.

MnHPVA Guy 02-26-10 10:18 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 10453972)
Those might be the same ratios as the old SA 5-speed hub.

Nope. The old 5 speeds had nearly evenly spaced ratios. Quite nice IMHO. The new steps, 20%/33.3%/33.3%/20% seem pretty dumb to me.

kingfish254 02-26-10 10:52 PM

What an awesome thread and some wonderful bikes! Somehow I missed this one.

Here are the Three Speeds that I have.

1948 Rudge Whitworth Sport with dynohub
I haven't done anything with this one yet.

http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/a...01948/RWa1.jpg


70s Raleigh Super DeLuxe
Haven't touched this one.
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/a...IMAGE_0191.jpg


1973 Raleigh Twenty with my wife "Englished" Dahon
The old Englishman that sold me the 20 has found the chainguard. I am going to pick it up tomorrow.

http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/a...n/IMG_6278.jpg

Oscuro 02-26-10 10:54 PM

Sixty-fiver, there are days when I hate you...You make me want to add a 3-speed to my collection, and I'm trying to save money for other things!

The worst part is, a "60s vintage CCM" is up on used-vic for $140....

http://www.usedvictoria.com/photos/01/68/12871268.jpg

I wants it...but I don't think I can swing it right now.

Sixty Fiver 02-26-10 11:08 PM


Originally Posted by Oscuro (Post 10457169)
Sixty-fiver, there are days when I hate you...You make me want to add a 3-speed to my collection, and I'm trying to save money for other things!

So I probably shouldn't tell you that I went out for another blissful 30 km this afternoon or that the old Sports was the bell of the ball at the critical mass ride... :)

A younger fellow on a 70's Peugeot was pretty intrigued with the bike and the three speed and didn't know what that shiny steel ring in my hand was until I clipped it on my pant leg... cause if you ride a vintage bike you need a vintage pant clip. :lol:

The cog change worked out wonderfully and got to test the low on a short 12% grade and did not even have to get out of the saddle (legs were working good) and in high gear the bike is remarkably fast... I will put that down to a fairly aero position and tyres that roll fast and suck up bumps like they aren't even there.

Like it's sister the Lenton, it climbs very well too.

And the only noise besides the ticking of the hub is the occasional "sproing" from the sprung kickstand when I have hit some really rough stretches.

Sixty Fiver 02-26-10 11:12 PM

Oscuro - I know a fellow here who got a nearly mint Raleigh Superbe at a yard sale... he paid $20.00 for it and the best part of the deal was that there was a ladies version selling for the same amount which he snapped up for his fiance.

A bike like that in this market will often sell for $275.00 plus if it has been tuned and serviced properly.

More pics... so you can hate me more.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikep...orts6sepia.JPG


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