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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

Road Fan 02-16-13 04:29 PM


Originally Posted by Dawes-man (Post 14975603)
After using cheap tubulars for a couple of years I was persuaded (was it by RoadFan?? Thank you, whoever it was!) to try some better quality ones.

....

The first thing I noticed, when I put a couple on rims to stretch them, was how much neater the construction was - they just oozed quality in comparison with what I was used to. Then, weeks later when I fitted one, how easy it was to get it straight onto the rim. It was almost as if I couldn't get it on crooked even if I tried, it seemed to just naturally want to sit straight. In fact, it took me a few minutes to realise that the checking side-against-side I was so used to doing was unnecessary. No bulge at the valve, either.

This is probably sacrilege but I fitted just one to the back of my Hetchins to replace the burst Gommitalia... in a hurry and all that - but even at 8bar it feels far more pliant/absorbent of shocks than the others. It's just more comfortable, although that could be partly due to the 25 mm width against the 22mm that I'm used to. I can't speak to how it handles as I still have the Gommitalia on the front but I expect it will be better due to its rounder shape.

...

My only small complaint is how quickly the tyre loses air. The Gommitalia needs air adding once a week, or 10 days, but the Veloflex needs air almost every day, certainly every other day. I wonder if this is normal? Would the Roubaix be any better? I say it's only a small complaint as I've quickly got used to putting in air more often. It's already part of the routine.

To sum up, I can confidently say that I will NEVER buy another cheap tubular.

Dawes, I've scribbled a lot about sew-ups here over the years. I'm glad you saw some benefit from it!

If you're losing air every day and you've tested for punctures (water bath), then your tires most likely have latex tubes rather than butyl rubber tubes. Losing air by the next day is just what latex does.

I'm riding less on tubulars the past few warm months. Trek 610 has old Conti 3000's (pretty supple, 28 mm goodness), Terraferma has 650b Hetres, and my Mondonico has 27 mm Challenge Paris-Roubaix tubulars. And I'm trying to ride the Terraferma more to build acclimation and sort out fitting issues.

When I went to the Challenges on that bike I took off some Servizio Corse. I liked those tires, but I like the Challenges a lot better. I'm sure some of it is simply down to air volume, but I also experienced easier installation with less messing around to get the tires to sit right on the rim. I'll still use up the cheap tires some day, but I certainly prefer the Challenges on the road.

Road Fan 02-16-13 04:42 PM


Originally Posted by gaucho777 (Post 15270617)
Actually, I didn't remember my formula correctly! :o I had to go back and edit/correct the formula. 40c = 104F. Guess it's not so easy to remember. Like Tom says, ask the google. ;)

Correct formula is F=C*(9/5)+32, but guestimates can often be good enough. But I agree, 40C = 104F.

If we're talking about safety of glue when rim temps are elevated due to weather and aggressive riding, I would not take chances with overheating the glue that holds your tires in place. I'd say if the glue company gives you a temp limit, observe it with maybe a 20 F minimum margin. You don't know how heating might be localized and you don't know if the glue melts at the spec temperature or if it softens progressively as you approach the spec temperature. You also don't know how long it needs to be at temp before negative effects kick in, nor how fast your wheel might cool off if it does go overtemp and you stop to cool it down.

Finally, if you think you're using the glue in-spec, how good is your temperature detection? If you're guessing, you're just guessing. If you have a thermocouple with an accurate digital meter, AND you got it down in contact with glue that is between the tire and the rim, you might have it pretty close. Otherwise there is error and you should consider if the error is in a direction that helps you or could hurt you. Another reason for not using glue that might become overheated and hence over softened.

I believe that one can ride a tubular with zero glue and get home in one piece (I am evidence), but if you can't take it easy in such situations, it's not safe.

I'd also think about that tire makers who sell glue have probably tested for compatibility between solvent in the glue and other rubber products in the tire, such as cover strip glue, rubber that impregnates the casing, or ... well, isn't this enough to worry about?

Road Fan 02-16-13 04:54 PM


Originally Posted by madscrambler (Post 15270131)
I have recently tried Contact Cement (DAP) AKA rubber cement to glue my tubular tires. Don't laugh many times I have gone to LBS and found they are out! Just road around Clear Lake CA (65 miles) with a set of wheels glued this way. I still buy tubes of glue to carry while riding to repair a flat.

Contact and rubber are not the same AFAIK. Contact cement puts down a layer of neoprene and rubber cement puts down a layer of rubber.

Dawes-man 02-18-13 10:13 AM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 15281516)
Dawes, I've scribbled a lot about sew-ups here over the years. I'm glad you saw some benefit from it!

If you're losing air every day and you've tested for punctures (water bath), then your tires most likely have latex tubes rather than butyl rubber tubes. Losing air by the next day is just what latex does.

<snip>

I'll still use up the cheap tires some day, but I certainly prefer the Challenges on the road.

Yes, I figured it was to do with the tube material. I haven't checked for punctures but I've subsequently fitted another Veloflex Arenberg to the front and the air loss is identical. I read somewhere that the lighter tube material does lose air so I guess the latex is lighter.

Does the Challenge keep air? I don't think they are available here in Japan, or the UK which is where I got the Veloflex.

smontanaro 02-18-13 02:28 PM


Originally Posted by smontanaro (Post 15241695)
I also have the Tufos on my Masi and like them.

I think I am going to retract that statement. After riding Dairyland Dare, I noticed the valve stem on the front wheel was canted off at an angle. Not thinking much of it, I reseated and reglued the tire. I did a bit more riding, but not much on this bike. A couple days ago I noticed the valve stem was off at an angle again. I pulled the tire. Hmmm... came off a bit too easily. I glued it up again. Went on a bit too easily as well. This morning I took the Masi out. Midway through the ride I stopped and took a look. Tipped over again. My conclusion is that this one tire is a bit too large. It's likely that no amount of gluing is going to keep the tire from shifting on the rim.

So, of the first two sets of tubulars I purchased (Conti Gatorskins and Tufo S33something), one tire in each pair hasn't lived up to what I expected from it. My next inexpensive tires are the Schwalbe Milanos on my Medici. I'll have to buy something to replace the Tufos on my Masi. I guess I'll move up-market a bit.

Skip

harpon 02-18-13 05:04 PM

Tubular tips?
THROW THEM IN THE TRASH
Save yourself the road rash

RobbieTunes 02-18-13 05:09 PM

Sorry to hear that, Skip. I've had good success with that same tire, the S 33 Pro. Heck, I even had success taping the C S 33 Pro to tubular rims (and they're made for clinchers). I just picked up some S3 Lites (4) and another set of tubular clinchers (C Jets) for my TT bike's backup wheels.

I could use a spare, so if you want to unload it, just drop me a line.
http://cdn.velospace.org/files/YFoil006[1].jpg

http://cdn.velospace.org/files/bb017[1].jpg

Road Fan 02-18-13 05:31 PM


Originally Posted by Dawes-man (Post 15287090)
Yes, I figured it was to do with the tube material. I haven't checked for punctures but I've subsequently fitted another Veloflex Arenberg to the front and the air loss is identical. I read somewhere that the lighter tube material does lose air so I guess the latex is lighter.

Does the Challenge keep air? I don't think they are available here in Japan, or the UK which is where I got the Veloflex.

It's not the weight, though thin butyls lose air faster than thick butyls. It's that latex rubber is different chemically from butyl rubber. We need a chemist.

rootboy 02-18-13 05:44 PM

All rubber is semi-permeable. Just ask ..

oh nevermind.

ftwelder 02-18-13 05:56 PM

Great thread, I have eight bikes on tubular tires. When I get a bike with tubular tires I discard tires with dried side walls or rips and sometimes re-glue the base tape. I find some older tires to be pretty good if they were good tires to begin with. Tubulars seem to require a bit of work but have an amazing ride.

RobbieTunes 02-18-13 06:27 PM

+1

3 bikes on tubulars, including two of my most modern.
1 bike on tubular clinchers.
1 backup set of wheels on tubular clinchers.

I'm starting to grasp the concept.

If the local triathletes continue to dump their higher-end tubulars, I will likely end up with more.
An Ironman running Zipps is not out of the realm of possibilities.

blamester 02-18-13 06:42 PM

Hi
Just got some new wheels and when I removed the front
tyre for inspection and truing I noticed that those e tape is stuck to the tyre and the rim is clean
Now I am wondering will I get a good bond with glue or should
use tape again on this tyre. Or how can I remove the tape from the tyre with out wrecking it? If the tape has set will it react with glue?

Bianchigirll 02-18-13 06:51 PM

Is this your first ever experience with tubulars? What do you mean the rim is clean? There is some type of glue tape on the tire your not looking at the 'tape' applied at the factory to cover the lacing right?

Any pics? I never used the tape stuff always glue


OH uh lets see I have 7 and half sorting tubulars, one is too big and will have to go to CL or the bay. 3 set of spare wheels but I am down to 7 spare tires. I better order some more from YJ.

smontanaro 02-18-13 06:57 PM


Originally Posted by RobbieTunes (Post 15289142)
1 bike on tubular clinchers.
1 backup set of wheels on tubular clinchers.

Why exactly use tubular clinchers? I can see from this page: http://www.tufonorthamerica.com/tiretypes.php what they are. It's not clear to me what the advantages are though. If you have clincher rims, why not just run clinchers? Can you run these on any 700c clincher rim?

S

Bianchigirll 02-18-13 07:12 PM

The Clinchulars allow you to run higher pressure. They are also argualble easier to fix a falt in a race than a clincher. You coulc also have some really nice training clincher wheels that you would put the clinchulars on for racing.

Clemment actually had these bak in the '80s

blamester 02-18-13 07:13 PM

Hi
Many yrs since I last used tubs but I have been
looking for a while for the right wheels. I have fond memories
of riding tubs.
The issue with these is the when I removed the tyre which was on there good the tape came away from the rim and stayed on the tyre. O
The other way round would be no big deal I could easily clean of the rim and start fresh, but what about I am asking is has anyone used one type of glue on top of another with good results. The tape is glue after all. Will I get a bad reaction and end up losing the tyre?

RobbieTunes 02-18-13 09:32 PM


Originally Posted by smontanaro (Post 15289246)
Why exactly use tubular clinchers? I can see from this page: http://www.tufonorthamerica.com/tiretypes.php what they are. It's not clear to me what the advantages are though. If you have clincher rims, why not just run clinchers? Can you run these on any 700c clincher rim?

S

1-I'm getting a lot better wear out of the tubular clinchers. A lot.
I'm tired of riding on ProRace eggshells; the tubular clinchers seem sturdier, too.

2-Like BG said, you can run higher pressure. I run mine at 130. At 105, they seemed hard.
They seem to "round out" at higher pressure.

3-They are a cinch to change. You pull them off, period. No tubes. You put them on, period, seat the bead and done.

4-They are lighter than many clincher/tube combos. Not all.

The only drawbacks, for me:
a-You may have to use valve extenders, depending on the wheel type.
b-You have to carry a spare tubular clincher, or a spare clincher AND a tube.

I let a wrench at an LBS try a set of mine. He's hooked. He ended up buying me a new set.
He could get the Tufo's cheaper than he could buy others with his employee discount.

Dawes-man 02-21-13 07:02 PM


Originally Posted by blamester (Post 15289295)
The issue with these is the when I removed the tyre which was on there good the tape came away from the rim and stayed on the tyre. O
The other way round would be no big deal I could easily clean of the rim and start fresh, but what about I am asking is has anyone used one type of glue on top of another with good results. The tape is glue after all. Will I get a bad reaction and end up losing the tyre?

That's odd. I've only ever used tape (Miyata TTP-1) and it's never stuck to the tyre when I've removed it, always the rim. If the tape was still sticky, and depending where I'd be using the bike, I'd be tempted to use the tyre as it is. Pottering around town, yes, but going touring with fast corners, no.

As to your question, I have no idea as it would depend on what kind of glue was in the tape and what kind in the cement and whether they were compatible. I guess the only way to find out would be to try it. If you can't get the tyre off easily by hand when the glue sets it would probably be okay. Depending on intended use, again.

A question to ask, though, is if the tyre is really worth the bother. One in the Vittoria Rally price range? I don't think so.

Grand Bois 02-22-13 07:58 AM

The Tufo tape always sticks to my Tufo tires when I remove them. I can put them back on the same rims or move them to others.

CV-6 03-04-13 11:41 AM

Just got some Challenge Strada tubulars from Ribble...$120 shipped. Currently on some rims for stretching and mild seasoning. Initial impression...very well made. Mounted easily and straight. Three days and no noticeable loss in pressure. Of course the real test is how they ride and stand up. Debating on whether to tape or glue. Looking forward to the ride.

Chombi 03-04-13 06:36 PM

Finally got to glue on the Veloflex Criterium tires I scored a few months ago on to my Fiamme Ergal wheelset last night. Thing I noticed when I put them on rims to stretch out when I got them was that they seem to be harder to get on the rims compared to my other tubs from other manufacturers because of the stiffer base tape area on the tire. Even after stretching out for some time on the rims, the tires were still quite hard to stretch over the rims when I glued them. Hardest ones to mount so far of the different brands of tubs I already have. At least they mounted very straight on the rims, with just some minor adjustments to get them perfect.
I used Vittoria's "Mastik" glue this time in lieu the usual Continental glue I've used on all my other tubular tires.. Seems to be a bit more (runny) when you first put it on the base tape, but as long as you spread it immediately, it's pretty easy to control. Maybe a bit easier than Continental glue, so I might give it a try again the next time I glue on another set of tires..
Just my two cents on two brands of tub stuff that I tried for the first time, so if you ever get Veloflex tires for your wheelset(s), be sure to be ready for a bit of a fight getting them on and Vittoria's Mastik gets an OK from me!:thumb:

Chombi

rootboy 03-04-13 08:49 PM

Good review Chombi. Thx.

Dawes-man 03-04-13 08:56 PM


Originally Posted by rootboy (Post 15345170)
Good review Chombi. Thx.

Indeed!

I would add that I've had no such problems with Veloflex Arenbergs. And I always use Miyata tape, which is dead easy and very leisurely to use. I think I would panic with glue and get it all over the place, too.

EhGiOeS 03-04-13 10:35 PM

Total Tubular Heresy
 
In the early "70's" the company I worked for made adhesives for 3 M. Velcro was new. I got a big roll as a sample. Contact cemented the "plush"
to the rim and the "hooks" to pink Clement Criterium Seta Extra tires. Never had a problem. After they had been on for a while it was though to break
the bond. You had to get a tire "iron" between the tire and rim to keep from separating the base tape. Im not riding sew-ups right now but I
have about twenty of them and a big roll of Velcro. For what its worth. Ed

Dawes-man 03-04-13 10:41 PM


Originally Posted by EhGiOeS (Post 15345578)
In the early "70's" the company I worked for made adhesives for 3 M. Velcro was new. I got a big roll as a sample. Contact cemented the "push"
to the rim and the "hooks" to pink Clement Criterium Seta Extra tires. Never had a problem. After they had been on for a while it was though to break
the bond. You had to get a tire "iron" between the tire and rim to keep from separating the base tape. Im not riding sew-ups right now but I
have about twenty of them and a big roll of Velcro. For what its worth. Ed

That's worth a really good laugh. Thank you! I might try that...


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