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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

PalmettoUpstate 03-28-13 07:17 PM


Originally Posted by clasher (Post 15441810)
I used that 5 speed hub. I think it comes with a 175mm axle so you can space it to your frame before you build the wheel up... they're pretty flexible in that regard. I used the grip shifter the hub came with and it was fine but I also wanted drop bars so I bought that shifter and it's nice enough. I wouldn't stand up on the pedals of the 5 speed hubs they do have a soft key or something inside that does break apparently... I never had problems but someone on the IGH yahoo group mentioned it. If you buy the thumb shifter or bar-end either one will also work as a downtube shifter, so there is that too... they're also all metal unlike the trigger and grip shifters.

So I pulled the measurement before I made my post and it appeared to me that 175 mm would do the job, but I wasn't absolutely sure, never having done one of these. I noticed that there were some 185 mm axled hubs out there too...

Thoughts?

Velognome 03-28-13 07:38 PM

The overall lockwasher dimension of the hub, and they vary according to which hub you select, is going to be a factor. You can make up some of the difference with spacers if need be. On the builds that I've done, I cold set the frame to minimize the use of spacers to the best of my ability.

My preference is for bar end shifters too, they are fast, accurate and out of the way. On older builds, I like to use the traditional trigger for 3 & 4 speeds. I think on an upright I would favor a thumb shifter over the twist.

clubman 03-28-13 07:54 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 15441652)
Twistgrips work the worst with IGHs in general so I have a hard spot for the traditional SA shifter for three speeds.

fify!

harpon 03-28-13 10:49 PM

GOT THAT $27,000 READY?

Has anybody seen this on ebay- only 13 hours left now!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-1939-Ra...ht_3846wt_1255

If you miss it, it may not sell and be relisted again......


Should have that Huffy Sportsman together in a day or two now- should look pretty good - for a heavy frame and one piece crank-
I was gonna put some light stuff on it- but now a couple of other projects have taken a few parts away already-

I'll put up some pics - "before" and "after" when I'm done-

I KNOW YOU CAN'T WAIT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like that Lambert above and remember when they became Viscount- or was it the other way around? "73 or '74 I think it was.
I wouldn't mind doing something similar- but I think time may be passing me by here- too much stuff already-

Do you there would be any market for 700C 3 speed wheels?

harpon 03-28-13 10:55 PM

Oh Dear- Someone said "MATRESS" to Mr. Lambert!
Now I've got to get into the FISHTANK and SING!
"And did those feet, in ancient times,
walk up on England's mountains green....."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGEeLtqtNvU

PalmettoUpstate 03-29-13 04:20 PM


Originally Posted by Velognome (Post 15443322)
The overall lockwasher dimension of the hub, and they vary according to which hub you select, is going to be a factor. You can make up some of the difference with spacers if need be. On the builds that I've done, I cold set the frame to minimize the use of spacers to the best of my ability.

My preference is for bar end shifters too, they are fast, accurate and out of the way. On older builds, I like to use the traditional trigger for 3 & 4 speeds. I think on an upright I would favor a thumb shifter over the twist.

Re: Frame spacing or "Cold Setting"...

I cursorily read thru Sheldon's page on this procedure: http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html and he refers to cold setting as "widening" the frame but I assume it could also mean the opposite and that you mean narrowing it slightly for this purpose; correct?

As best I can tell, w/o removing the rear wheel, the space I have on the Bridgestone is 125-130 mm. At the page linked above, Sheldon says a standard width on a 6 or 7 speed [cassette] roadbike is 126 mm so I'm assuming that is what I've got, with the 6 speed cassette on the bike. So my follow-up question would be: Are there functional reasons for minimizing spacers and do the "trim kits" included with some of these hubs include wide but precise spacers; IOW something larger in width than standard washers?

Would you mind - text, pics, or another thread - showing me how you proceed in "cold setting" the frames on your builds?

redcaymatt 03-29-13 05:42 PM


Originally Posted by rudypyatt (Post 15308780)
Anybody up for doing something similar here?

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stu_col...ten/index.html

I"d be interested. I live in Highland Park next to New Brunswick. Rahway would be fine. I used to ride Rahway Park in the 80's. I grew up in Elizabeth so any part of Northern N.J. Or N.Y.C. works for me.

woodrupjoe 03-29-13 08:33 PM

I've been trying to link to a pretty cool Craigslist ad but this computer refuses to comply. If anyone wants to facilitate, there's a guy in Brooklyn, NY who periodically puts a few NOS Raleigh 3-speeds on Craigs. I don't know where he finds them, but this time it's a pair of his/hers 1959 Sports and they certainly are sweet. Plus he's got a link to a photo page with lots of good pics. A few years ago I seriously considered one of his finds at $600 (for a NOS Sports I think- maybe a Ltd), but the prices are now gasp-inducing. Anyway, the pictures are really beautiful of these two showroom-condition bikes. Sorry I'm having such a hard time trying to link to them.

woodrupjoe 03-29-13 08:41 PM

http://s47.photobucket.com/user/supe...45286051349529

OK. Maybe that worked. It's a photobucket page.

http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/bik/3663631484.html

And there's the ad.

(I'm still such a dunce with computers)

PalmettoUpstate 03-30-13 06:12 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 15443380)
fify!

You and Salubrious have me really confused now...

PalmettoUpstate 03-30-13 06:21 PM


Originally Posted by rhm (Post 15441695)
Yes, I believe it is.
I like this one:
http://wheelbuilder.jmoore.me/
Ebay seller "childhood_dreams". Or send me a private message and I'll give you the guy's email address.
No, if that's what you want, go for it. I like the bar end shifter for drop bars, though. Another option is the one on which you shift up with your thumb and down with your fingers. I kinda liked it but found it fragile.

Thanks for the input; I did find your "spokeman" on ebay.

I'm still on the fence about shifters. One thing that sorta rankles me is that I have 6-8 S-A thumb shifters around that have had the facing plate [with the text on it] defaced or removed and I'd really like to just buy the correct S-A cable and use them. I've even considered taking them all to a Trophy and Awards shop and having them engrave the 1-2-3 on them and then "colorizing" the numerals. I hafta admit that I like a thumb shifter - once you are used to them and have them in proper adjustment it literally is just a flick or quick pull of the index finger and voila!

Velognome 03-30-13 06:24 PM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 15446318)
Re: Frame spacing or "Cold Setting"...

I cursorily read thru Sheldon's page on this procedure: http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html and he refers to cold setting as "widening" the frame but I assume it could also mean the opposite and that you mean narrowing it slightly for this purpose; correct?

As best I can tell, w/o removing the rear wheel, the space I have on the Bridgestone is 125-130 mm. At the page linked above, Sheldon says a standard width on a 6 or 7 speed [cassette] roadbike is 126 mm so I'm assuming that is what I've got, with the 6 speed cassette on the bike. So my follow-up question would be: Are there functional reasons for minimizing spacers and do the "trim kits" included with some of these hubs include wide but precise spacers; IOW something larger in width than standard washers?

Would you mind - text, pics, or another thread - showing me how you proceed in "cold setting" the frames on your builds?

Using spacers is fine, just saying that before you get into things, know what your D.O.'s are currently spaced at and then look at the Hubs over all locknut demension...it's sounding like your assuming problems that may not exist. An yes, cold setting can go both ways, but generally it's for widening a frame.

clubman 03-30-13 07:11 PM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 15449586)
You and Salubrious have me really confused now...

Sorry for the confusion.. I have never found a Sturmey Archer Twistgrip (circa mid 1960's) that has worked for more than a month. On the other hand, trigger shifters seem to never fail. So I lightly challenged Salubrious's post with fify, or "fixed it for you".

PalmettoUpstate 03-30-13 08:37 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 15449769)
Sorry for the confusion.. I have never found a Sturmey Archer Twistgrip (circa mid 1960's) that has worked for more than a month. On the other hand, trigger shifters seem to never fail. So I lightly challenged Salubrious's post with fify, or "fixed it for you".

Yeah I'd picked up on that; mine was meant tongue-in-cheek...

For parts, I've been buying up as many basket case 3-speeds as I can reasonably obtain in my area, and have accumulated a couple of the SA twist grip shifters and maybe three or four Shimanos. From what you're telling me here, the SA's don't hold up to regular usage; IYO are the Shimanos any better in that respect?

PalmettoUpstate 03-30-13 08:54 PM


Originally Posted by Velognome (Post 15449622)
Using spacers is fine, just saying that before you get into things, know what your D.O.'s are currently spaced at and then look at the Hubs over all locknut demension...it's sounding like your assuming problems that may not exist. An yes, cold setting can go both ways, but generally it's for widening a frame.

OK, pretend I'm an idiot...

Just kidding, I really do appreciate the clarification from you guys that have "been there; done that" LOL...

Taking the specs here: http://www.sturmey-archer.com/produc.../id/33/specs/1 and assuming "over locknut dimension" [130mm] means "OLD"... [I assume I'm correct so far...?] and the space between my dropouts on this bike in question is 126mm... then I guess I will need to spread the frame 4mm in order to fit this particular hub to the bike. To get that 4mm can I just do it mechanically or will I need heat or something? [And, if so, there's the problem of being sure that its "square"...]

But then, it seems to me that 4mm isn't so much that it couldn't just be pulled manually.

clubman 03-31-13 06:20 AM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 15450026)
Yeah I'd picked up on that; mine was meant tongue-in-cheek...

For parts, I've been buying up as many basket case 3-speeds as I can reasonably obtain in my area, and have accumulated a couple of the SA twist grip shifters and maybe three or four Shimanos. From what you're telling me here, the SA's don't hold up to regular usage; IYO are the Shimanos any better in that respect?

I just don't ride IGH's that aren't Made in England. Ever.

Matariki 03-31-13 08:41 AM


Originally Posted by clasher (Post 15441810)
I used that 5 speed hub. I think it comes with a 175mm axle so you can space it to your frame before you build the wheel up... they're pretty flexible in that regard. I used the grip shifter the hub came with and it was fine but I also wanted drop bars so I bought that shifter and it's nice enough. I wouldn't stand up on the pedals of the 5 speed hubs they do have a soft key or something inside that does break apparently... I never had problems but someone on the IGH yahoo group mentioned it. If you buy the thumb shifter or bar-end either one will also work as a downtube shifter, so there is that too... they're also all metal unlike the trigger and grip shifters.

I have been using a SA 5 speed hub for the last 6 months. It has an OLD of 130 mm with a 175 axle. This should be plenty long for you. I stand on the pedals all the time and never had any issues - perhaps I should rethink this. I am using the thumb shifter because I liked the way it looks. The hub came with the grip shifter - it looks like it would work ok, but it just didn't work with the bars/grips I planned on using.

PalmettoUpstate 04-01-13 06:02 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 15450642)
I just don't ride IGH's that aren't Made in England. Ever.

I can't be that much of a purist as I have a crass commercial reason for acquiring 3-speed transmissions [in addition to my "purist" interest - LOL].

Amesja 04-01-13 06:08 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 15450642)
I just don't ride IGH's that aren't Made in England. Ever.

I'm loving my Suntour AW. It's a thing of beauty and matches the modern Taiwanese Sturmey-Archer X-FDD in front.

Velognome 04-01-13 06:55 AM

little known info, FWIW - Camagnolo also produced a 3spd IGH for 1/2 a year in '72. Nice polished alloy shell 36H and close range gears too. I luv, luv, it!

Edit : 32H to 36H my bad..too early to count holes before coffee :thumb:

Amesja 04-01-13 07:11 AM


Originally Posted by Velognome (Post 15454265)
little known info, FWIW - Camagnolo also produced a 3spd IGH for 1/2 a year in '72. Nice polished alloy shell 32H and close range gears too. I luv, luv, it!

I bet it would be hard to find a 32h AW shell these days!

rhm 04-01-13 07:12 AM


Originally Posted by Amesja (Post 15454324)
I bet it would be hard to find a 32h AW shell these days!

I don't think there ever was such a thing. You can lace a 32H rim to a 40H hub, though, no problems.

Amesja 04-01-13 07:23 AM

I don't have any experience lacing up non-equivalent hubs and rims. The math is hurting my head. 4 holes would be skipped in each flange. Would that be 2 inner and 2 outer spokes missing? 4 open holes 90-degrees apart and then 45-degrees out of phase to the other flange?

I'm intrigued now...

rhm 04-01-13 07:37 AM


Originally Posted by Velognome (Post 15454430)
rhm..Amesja...really?

Yes, really, lacing a 32H rim to a 40H hub, is pretty simple.

Originally Posted by Amesja (Post 15454376)
I don't have any experience lacing up non-equivalent hubs and rims. The math is hurting my head. 4 holes would be skipped in each flange. Would that be 2 inner and 2 outer spokes missing? 4 open holes 90-degrees apart and then 45-degrees out of phase to the other flange?

I'm intrigued now...

It's very simple. Out of every five holes on the hub, you use only four.
So for example if you had four holes, they would have leading and trailing spokes like this:

L T L T


but if you had five, they are a little closer together

L T - L T

You end up with two different spoke sizes; one ones next to the empty hole are one or two mm longer than expected; the others are about five mm shorter than expected.

Velognome 04-01-13 07:45 AM

[QUOTE=rhm;15454431]Please edit your post, it is much too early in the day to come clean about such things. QUOTE]

As you wish...till later

clubman 04-01-13 09:54 AM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 15454111)
I can't be that much of a purist as I have a crass commercial reason for acquiring 3-speed transmissions [in addition to my "purist" interest - LOL].

I'm not really a purist but over the years I amassed too much stuff and had to downsize. I try hard to stay focused on British and Canadian bikes but even that has left 30 or 40 bikes in the stable.


Originally Posted by Amesja (Post 15454123)
I'm loving my Suntour AW. It's a thing of beauty and matches the modern Taiwanese Sturmey-Archer X-FDD in front.

Amesja, is it a Sturmey mech inside that Suntour shell? I've never seen one of those

Amesja 04-01-13 10:28 AM

The Hub is nearly Identical to a Sturmey-Archer as far as I can tell other than it is stamped SunTour on the outside and the build quality and overall chrome plating is just NICER.

What it looked like when I got it, with a big TDC sticker over the SunTour stamping:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-z...73_Chicago.jpg

Cleaned up well:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-V...219_154426.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-U...219_154608.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-I...221_114811.jpg

The only parts that showed the slightest bit of rust or discoloring were the cog spacers and the dust cover over the driver, one of the axle nuts and the anti-rotation & lock washers. Considering the shape it was in when I got it, I can't complain. Stuff made in Japan is just BETTER.

photogravity 04-01-13 10:43 AM


Originally Posted by Amesja (Post 15455103)
The Hub is nearly Identical to a Sturmey-Archer as far as I can tell other than it is stamped SunTour on the outside and the build quality and overall chrome plating is just NICER.

...snip...

The only parts that showed the slightest bit of rust or discoloring were the cog spacers and the dust cover over the driver, one of the axle nuts and the anti-rotation & lock washers. Considering the shape it was in when I got it, I can't complain. Stuff made in Japan is just BETTER.

I have one of those sitting in my parts bin. I have heard they are nicely made, but haven't looked inside to see how the parts compare.

Amesja 04-01-13 11:09 AM

The hub seems to be smoother and roll with less internal resistance than a Nottingham hub. When I first took it apart I thought that the planetary gears were chrome-plated. They were THAT shiny. But after going through my parts cleaning regimen they discolored ever so slightly. They are not chromed but simply VERY well machined with polished-smooth surfaces.

Most hubs are gooey inside after a few decades of use and disuse and the internal parts feel just like they have been coated in Cosmoline. Just wiping that off isn't good enough for me. I feel that the goop will slowly dissolve off with new oil on them and contaminate the new oil, hurting performance. So I put all the parts through a "boil-out" process just like one would remove Cosmoline and it works very well, although some metal parts will come out slightly darker. It's worth it, I feel, to get them perfectly clean so they don't back-contaminate the new oil and undo the overhaul. Anyone can take a hub apart and simply wipe it down. But if you don't get that goop off it won't perform as well as it did when new in my view of the world.

But since the planetary gears are so polished and the other gear parts inside that they mesh with are also so well machined and polished I think that this hub has less internal drag than an English-made and even a Styria-made variant.

It's better.

Salubrious 04-01-13 11:20 AM

Hmmm. Will its parts bolt up in an original AW shell? :innocent:


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