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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Velocivixen 05-06-16 08:38 PM

Well I posted an update from my phone and it's not here. Update: An employee at my LBS loaned me is very strong drill bits - like they can drill through anything, and finally made it though the cotter. I don't think it's going to come out by whacking it, although I try periodically. It has to be ground out. I even went so far as to put the NDS crank arm back on, putting the rear wheel on and standing with feet on pedals at 3 & 9 o'clock and bouncing up and down while applying the front brake and holding onto my work bench. Not budging.

I'm afraid to use larger bit becaue the flat side of the spindle will either get marred or will dull the bit.

I took out the NDS cup and tried whacking the spindle out that way from the chainring. I've tried multiple times a long screwdriver between the fixed cup and base of chain ring. I've tried hammering on the drive side crank arm.....no go.

i've literally spend from 10:30 a.m. to around 6:00 p.m. on this! In the meantime I installed new front/rear brake cables/housings, and slightly used brake pads. The fenders are off and will be cleaned up.

I may have to enlist the help of @gugie with his torch to work on this.

I don't mind a challenge and I've had a few but nothing like this. Without repacking the bottom bracket and getting this chainring off the spindle I can't ride the bike. Someone suggested I ride the bike carefully and then, of course, the chainring will come off....I'm deflated and discouraged plus my shoulders, neck and back hurt from bending over the thing all day.

Right now it's on its side with penetrating oil soaking between the end of the spindle and the chainring.

BigChief 05-06-16 10:21 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18747436)
Well I posted an update from my phonbe and it's not here. Update: An employee at my LBX loaned me is very strong drill bits - like they can drill through anything, and finally made it though the cotter. I don't think it's going to come out by whacking it, although I try periodically. It has to be ground out. I even went so far as to put the NDS crank arm back on, putting the rear wheel on and standing with feet on pedals at 3 & 9 o'clock and bouncing up and down while applying the front brake and holding onto my work bench. Not budging.

I'm afraid to use larger bit becaue the flat side of the spindle will either get marred or will dull the bit.

I took out the NDS cup and tried whacking the spindle out that way from the chainring. I've tried multiple times a long screwdriver between the fixed cup and base of chain ring. I've tried hammering on the drive side crank arm.....no go.

i've literally spend from 10:30 a.m. to around 6:00 p.m. on this! In the meantime I installed new front/rear brake cables/housings, and slightly used brake pads. The fenders are off and will be cleaned up.

I may have to enlist the help of @gugie with his torch to work on this.

I don't mind a challenge and I've had a few but nothing like this. Without repacking the bottom bracket and getting this chainring off the spindle I can't ride the bike. Someone suggested I ride the bike carefully and then, of course, the chainring will come off....I'm deflated and discouraged plus my shoulders, neck and back hurt from bending over the thing all day.

Right now it's on its side with penetrating oil soaking between the end of the spindle and the chainring.

Wow, this rivals any stuck seatpost story I've heard. But, now that you have a hole, you could use abrasive wire to cut the sides of the pin without damaging the shaft.

Loose Chain 05-06-16 10:47 PM

To remove the cotter keys from the cranks on my two bikes I used my tie rod puller for Jeep (Wrangler) steering gear. It is heavy duty and effortlessly pushed the cotters out without damaging them. The amount of force needed to pull a tie rod arm is way beyond those bitsy little cotters.

But, so much junk fell out of both bikes that I was unable to count the balls (per side). How many are there supposed to be and what number per side?

How much weight do you think these bikes were intended to carry?

gugie 05-06-16 11:22 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18747436)
I may have to enlist the help of @gugie with his torch to work on this.

Well, we can always heat everything up to ludicrous temperature, then brass braze the blob of steel back to something that resembles a bicycle.

The pressed in pin on the folding joint of my Bike Friday kinda sized up a few years ago. I bought the bike in 96, and never serviced it. Apparently that's a thing. I had to bring it to a machine shop to drill it out. Once you drill it hollow, use successively larger drill bits until it's thin enough to punch out - seconding @noglider 's recommendation.

If we heat it up with a torch the chrome will probably get damaged. Consider the possiblity of replacing them if they're damaged.

I'd try the "ride it around" and see if that loosens things up.

Torch would be the last resort.

BigChief 05-07-16 04:55 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18747641)
To remove the cotter keys from the cranks on my two bikes I used my tie rod puller for Jeep (Wrangler) steering gear. It is heavy duty and effortlessly pushed the cotters out without damaging them. The amount of force needed to pull a tie rod arm is way beyond those bitsy little cotters.

But, so much junk fell out of both bikes that I was unable to count the balls (per side). How many are there supposed to be and what number per side?

How much weight do you think these bikes were intended to carry?

I always seem to loose ball bearings when I take the BB apart. Steering tube is even worse. The BB has 11 1/4" bearings per side.

3speedslow 05-07-16 08:52 AM

Man, there's a fight goin' on in Pacific Northwest !

Loose Chain 05-07-16 09:01 AM

You know, I have often wondered why there are not grease zerks on utility bicycles for steering and especially the BB. I can see on a fine racer or super lightweight one would not want a zerk or the extra grease content but these English clunkers are often not so loved and cared for (as we seem to appreciate :) )and taking them apart to restore the grease seems a PITA. If the grease channel were well designed the new grease would push out the old and along with it the gunk.

BigChief 05-07-16 09:43 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18748177)
You know, I have often wondered why there are not grease zerks on utility bicycles for steering and especially the BB. I can see on a fine racer or super lightweight one would not want a zerk or the extra grease content but these English clunkers are often not so loved and cared for (as we seem to appreciate :) )and taking them apart to restore the grease seems a PITA. If the grease channel were well designed the new grease would push out the old and along with it the gunk.

These bikes do have a lot of odd ball quirks. Be grateful the sports models have the modern convenience of rear dropouts. The DL-1s never got that. Another thing is the front hubs. At some point in the distant past, the front end of my Rudge got crunched and somebody replaced it with a Schwinn fork and wheel. I have a Raleigh made fork and hub and was planning on using them when I install a pair of CR-18 rims.
But now I'm thinking of keeping them. I had to replace a tube this winter. I loosened the nuts and the wheel came right out of the forks without a wrestling match...imagine that. Lock nuts to hold the bearing races too. Caged bearings in the headset. How un-British.

DQRider 05-07-16 10:46 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18748177)
You know, I have often wondered why there are not grease zerks on utility bicycles for steering and especially the BB. I can see on a fine racer or super lightweight one would not want a zerk or the extra grease content but these English clunkers are often not so loved and cared for (as we seem to appreciate :) )and taking them apart to restore the grease seems a PITA. If the grease channel were well designed the new grease would push out the old and along with it the gunk.

That would deprive us of the winter ritual: disassemble, repack, and reassemble everything. It keeps us out in the shop, instead of sitting in the house and brooding - at least up here where we have real winters. If I didn't have so much family up here, I would be living somewhere with a year-round riding season. Besides, nobody has yet invented, to my knowledge, an aesthetically pleasing zerk.

Slash5 05-07-16 11:10 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18748177)
You know, I have often wondered why there are not grease zerks on utility bicycles for steering and especially the BB. I can see on a fine racer or super lightweight one would not want a zerk or the extra grease content but these English clunkers are often not so loved and cared for (as we seem to appreciate :) )and taking them apart to restore the grease seems a PITA. If the grease channel were well designed the new grease would push out the old and along with it the gunk.

On my 86 Cannondale MTB I installed a grease fitting in the bottom bracket and I had a conversion I bought for the XT pedals that put grease fittings in the end caps.

Loose Chain 05-07-16 11:43 AM


Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 18748377)
That would deprive us of the winter ritual: disassemble, repack, and reassemble everything. It keeps us out in the shop, instead of sitting in the house and brooding - at least up here where we have real winters. If I didn't have so much family up here, I would be living somewhere with a year-round riding season. Besides, nobody has yet invented, to my knowledge, an aesthetically pleasing zerk.

Yes, I see your point :) .

But there are flush zerks that use a needle. They are often seen on the center joint of a CV driveshaft.

Seems I have come to own a Bridgestone MTB4, I found it. What a fright, which to work on now?

browngw 05-07-16 12:13 PM

1 Attachment(s)
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=520274

Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 18748377)
That would deprive us of the winter ritual: disassemble, repack, and reassemble everything. It keeps us out in the shop, instead of sitting in the house and brooding - at least up here where we have real winters. If I didn't have so much family up here, I would be living somewhere with a year-round riding season. Besides, nobody has yet invented, to my knowledge, an aesthetically pleasing zerk.

This bottom bracket "oiling port" ? found on my newly acquired 1958 Sun Cresta (Birmingham) is a on a lightweight EUUT tubed bike. I intend to put a few drops of gear oil in for the time being as the bearings feel pretty good. You can see more of the bike here. http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...m-england.html

noglider 05-07-16 09:15 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 18748162)
Man, there's a fight goin' on in Pacific Northwest !

Ha, I know! @Velocivixen, it's hell now, but think about how triumphant you'll feel. And now you know why some of us (I'm included) try to avoid cottered cranks. Sure, most people manage just fine most of the time, but then this happens.

noglider 05-07-16 09:26 PM

And oil ports really are a good thing if you use them right. Oil frequently, and DON'T FORGET! I did my three-month European trip oiling my hubs frequently. After my trip, I disassembled the bearings, and man, were they clean. The trouble is, if you forget, you're in trouble, so we use grease, because that tolerates less regular maintenance.

Loose Chain 05-07-16 09:27 PM

This is what I used to remove my cotters on my two bikes, mine is very similar, actually it is an A type ball joint puller.

http://www.amazon.com/GearWrench-391.../dp/B003YVWHOE

So going to the new 22T cogs, about how many links will I need to add to my chains?

I have never used master links, do you guys use them?

BigChief 05-08-16 05:01 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18749518)
This is what I used to remove my cotters on my two bikes, mine is very similar, actually it is an A type ball joint puller.

http://www.amazon.com/GearWrench-391.../dp/B003YVWHOE

So going to the new 22T cogs, about how many links will I need to add to my chains?

I have never used master links, do you guys use them?

I always fit a new chain. They're not expensive and I like how smooth a new chain runs. As far as I know, 1/8" chains always come with master links. I use them. I just fit a 22T cog on the Sports I'm working on now. One of the things I always do that I feel is helpful is stretch the circlip that holds the cog on the hub a bit. They are usually nearly closed on the ends and I spread them so there's a gap of around 3/16". That's plenty tight enough and it makes it much easier to get it back on the hub. I take my hubs apart as routine maintenance to grease the wheel bearings and there's no need to fight with that circlip each time.

markk900 05-08-16 06:26 AM

Question for those of you with the older quadrant shifter... Is it a really tiny delicate thing? Until yesterday I had really only seen pictures and always imagined it to be a fairly substantial thing, but was in a bike shop while travelling yesterday and they had an old step through (couldn't pull it out for pictures) with a quadrant shifter; that thing was maybe 1-2" across with this delicate little lever on it - thought I would have to hold my pinky up while shifting. :). Is that how they all are?

agmetal 05-08-16 08:08 AM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 18749858)
Question for those of you with the older quadrant shifter... Is it a really tiny delicate thing? Until yesterday I had really only seen pictures and always imagined it to be a fairly substantial thing, but was in a bike shop while travelling yesterday and they had an old step through (couldn't pull it out for pictures) with a quadrant shifter; that thing was maybe 1-2" across with this delicate little lever on it - thought I would have to hold my pinky up while shifting. :). Is that how they all are?

Sounds about right to me, although I can tell you from experience with riding it the last several days, I'd find anything bigger to be annoying when stopping and starting.

adventurepdx 05-08-16 10:34 AM

Okay, it's just a week away! I probably asked this before, but let's get a "roll call" of who's heading out to the Lake Pepin Three Speed Tour this weekend. I'm on my way!

DQRider 05-08-16 11:10 AM


Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 18750358)
Okay, it's just a week away! I probably asked this before, but let's get a "roll call" of who's heading out to the Lake Pepin Three Speed Tour this weekend. I'm on my way!

Well, you know I'm in. Hey, I just read your blog. A sleeper car on the Empire Builder train? Nice! Watch for a PM...

Velocivixen 05-08-16 01:27 PM

I DID IT!!!

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7061/...9883387c_c.jpgStock Cotter on Its Way OUT! by velocivixen, on Flickr
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7306/...eeae590c_c.jpgFixed Cup Race Good by velocivixen, on Flickr
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7573/...f0a5305f_c.jpgClean Bottom Bracket Shell by velocivixen, on Flickr

dweenk 05-08-16 01:38 PM

Now that wasn't so bad was it?:rolleyes:

Velocivixen 05-08-16 02:04 PM

Not a single swear word was uttered either.

3speedslow 05-08-16 02:11 PM

Congratulations! I drink a beer to celebrate your victory.

SirMike1983 05-08-16 03:22 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 18749858)
Question for those of you with the older quadrant shifter... Is it a really tiny delicate thing? Until yesterday I had really only seen pictures and always imagined it to be a fairly substantial thing, but was in a bike shop while travelling yesterday and they had an old step through (couldn't pull it out for pictures) with a quadrant shifter; that thing was maybe 1-2" across with this delicate little lever on it - thought I would have to hold my pinky up while shifting. :). Is that how they all are?

Right about 2 inches across, at the widest point. They have a somewhat fragile flat spring in them to encourage the lever peg to "click" into the holes for low and normal. The other fragile bit is the free swinging sleeve for the shifter cable that hangs on the pivot at the bottom.

However, they're not too fragile beyond those parts. They're generally well made and they do work. They are a pain to use on a busy street with traffic because you have to reach down for them. They also can be tricky to adjust: you don't want low to be too tight, but you don't want neutral to be too close to the peg hole for normal. This really affects the AW hub connected to the shifter. The K does not have this issue, and they were designed with the K in mind. They offer no real advantage over the 1940s-50s type bar shifter, aside from historical accuracy.

BigChief 05-08-16 04:49 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18750716)
Not a single swear word was uttered either.

Nice work! I see you drilled a very clean, straight hole through the pin. Not easy to do. I'll try to be influenced by your not swearing all the way through this nasty job if it ever happens to me. No guarantees though.

Velocivixen 05-08-16 07:03 PM

@BigChief - the garage door is open when I'm working and the houses are somewhat close together, so neighbors and children would likely hear me if I did. I did say "Oh man...." and "this is unbelievable!" quite a few times.

Salubrious 05-08-16 08:02 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18747436)
Right now it's on its side with penetrating oil soaking between the end of the spindle and the chainring.

Glad you got it out. You might want to consider a small investment in a can of Kroil (available online through www.kanolabs.com); there are always more stuck parts in the future. So far its never let me down- I started using it 23 years ago when rebuilding a 1941 Indian motorbike.



Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18748177)
You know, I have often wondered why there are not grease zerks on utility bicycles for steering and especially the BB. I can see on a fine racer or super lightweight one would not want a zerk or the extra grease content but these English clunkers are often not so loved and cared for (as we seem to appreciate :) )and taking them apart to restore the grease seems a PITA. If the grease channel were well designed the new grease would push out the old and along with it the gunk.

In addition to the oil ports found on older machines, an easy way to lube the BB if you are in doubt is to dribble the oil down the seat tube.


Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 18750358)
Okay, it's just a week away! I probably asked this before, but let's get a "roll call" of who's heading out to the Lake Pepin Three Speed Tour this weekend. I'm on my way!

Yahoo!! Lake Pepin 3-speed tour yo.

Slash5 05-08-16 08:28 PM

This is my cotter press.

http://i.imgur.com/BKAWQ7X.jpg

3speedslow 05-08-16 08:36 PM

Now that's a C clamp !:)

Is this an extra bench vise you have around the workshop or do you disconnect it from the mount ?

Love that purple Falcon BTW!


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