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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

desconhecido 09-20-18 09:50 PM


Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 20577109)
I won't disagree that the 50's Raleighs were nicer frames, but I have done plenty of fast descents on the later TI Industries frames. (Hello, Bay City Hill!) I think the wheels and brakes are more important than the frame when it comes to descents. It might be blasphemy, but I love the stopping power combination of modern aluminum rims with more modern brakes and Kool Stop pads. I've upgraded the wheels and brakes on all my three speeds.

The most important thing for me about any bike is that I like to ride it and aluminum rims and good brake pads are important. Doesn't mean that I wouldn't ride/own a steel rimmed bike, I do, but the bikes with replacememnt rims (Cr 18s) are, in my opinion, more friendly to ride. And, putting alloy rims on a 79 Raleigh Sports? It's not like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa.

BigChief 09-21-18 04:53 AM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20577737)
The most important thing for me about any bike is that I like to ride it and aluminum rims and good brake pads are important. Doesn't mean that I wouldn't ride/own a steel rimmed bike, I do, but the bikes with replacememnt rims (Cr 18s) are, in my opinion, more friendly to ride. And, putting alloy rims on a 79 Raleigh Sports? It's not like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa.

True, but remember that the older 40/32 hole Westricks in good shape are super hard to find. If you ever swap out older rims, you could do it for free by selling the 40/32 pair if they're clean. Not sure when Raleigh decided to go normal with 36/36H. Sometime in the early 70s.

desconhecido 09-21-18 08:26 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20577916)
True, but remember that the older 40/32 hole Westricks in good shape are super hard to find. If you ever swap out older rims, you could do it for free by selling the 40/32 pair if they're clean. Not sure when Raleigh decided to go normal with 36/36H. Sometime in the early 70s.

A couple years ago, I shipped a pair of Raleigh patent rims from a 54 to a forum member. Cost was $16 or $18, I can't remember. They were ok rims that I had soaked in OA, but not great. I wouldn't call them "clean." The only old Raleigh rims that I've encountered that were "clean" are on a 51 step through. They are some sort of stainless type alloy. Stainless spokes, too. The moved to plain carbon steel in 52 or so.

Of course, I've seen many pictures of old Raleighs here with what appear to be plain steel rims with chrome in excellent condition -- just never encountered one in person.

noglider 09-21-18 08:54 AM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 20573693)
It's probably a solid frame under all the rust

I'm pretty sure all Raleigh frames are hollow. ;) OK, sorry.

adventurepdx 09-21-18 09:57 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20577713)
My scorcher has aluminum rims, Tektro R559 brakes and cable stops on the top tube. The brakes do feel luxurious, like having power brakes. Such a light touch, but as far as actual stopping distance when dry, I don't see a big advantage over the old brakes on steel rims.

The operative term there is "dry". I live in damp ol' Portland, Oregon, and ride my three speeds all year. I'm done with the sketchy braking of wet steel rims. It's okay to keep the rims steel if your three speed isn't going to see rain, though.


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20577713)
Good pads like Kool Stops or the Fibrax " Science" pads for steel rims and roughing up the rim sides with 220 sandpaper do make a world of difference. I'm sure if you did a side by side test, you could quantify some improvement, but it doesn't stand out much to me. Hydraulic discs on the other hand DO stand out. Very impressive to an old fart like me used to oldtime calipers.But I agree about the TI era frames. I've never had a problem with them.

I've tried the Fibrax pads on steel rims, and felt that the improvement in wet braking power was negligible.

adventurepdx 09-21-18 10:11 AM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20577737)
And, putting alloy rims on a 79 Raleigh Sports? It's not like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa.

Quote of the day! :roflmao2:

BigChief 09-21-18 10:11 AM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20578208)
A couple years ago, I shipped a pair of Raleigh patent rims from a 54 to a forum member. Cost was $16 or $18, I can't remember. They were ok rims that I had soaked in OA, but not great. I wouldn't call them "clean." The only old Raleigh rims that I've encountered that were "clean" are on a 51 step through. They are some sort of stainless type alloy. Stainless spokes, too. The moved to plain carbon steel in 52 or so.

Of course, I've seen many pictures of old Raleighs here with what appear to be plain steel rims with chrome in excellent condition -- just never encountered one in person.

By clean I mean reasonable. It's nice to have a bike looking old but cared for in the end. I've seen many pre TI Raleighs that were in good condition except for the rims, so nice Westricks are at a premium for anybody looking to do factory correct project. This Rudge is the oldest project I've done so far. It has chrome Westricks and stainless spokes. The only difference I see between these 1951 and more modern Westricks is that the raised center section has a satin finish. If anybody had a bike like this with rusted out rims, more modern 40/32H Westricks would be plenty good enough. By the later 50s Raleigh was using Endrick rims on the Rudge models. Much easier to find replacements for those.

adventurepdx 09-21-18 10:14 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20577916)
True, but remember that the older 40/32 hole Westricks in good shape are super hard to find. If you ever swap out older rims, you could do it for free by selling the 40/32 pair if they're clean. Not sure when Raleigh decided to go normal with 36/36H. Sometime in the early 70s.


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20578208)
A couple years ago, I shipped a pair of Raleigh patent rims from a 54 to a forum member. Cost was $16 or $18, I can't remember. They were ok rims that I had soaked in OA, but not great. I wouldn't call them "clean." The only old Raleigh rims that I've encountered that were "clean" are on a 51 step through. They are some sort of stainless type alloy. Stainless spokes, too. The moved to plain carbon steel in 52 or so.

Yeah, I never had great luck with the old rims either. The chrome on them looked okay, but there was no way to fix spokes or true the wheels as the nipples etc had rusted.

Salubrious 09-21-18 10:58 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20577664)
That style shifter has a spacer bar down by the mounting screw. It's meant to resist deforming the case as you tighten the mounting screw. I suspect it may be missing.

Got it in one. I found an aluminum spacer at Ace that looks to be a good candidate.


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20577916)
True, but remember that the older 40/32 hole Westricks in good shape are super hard to find. If you ever swap out older rims, you could do it for free by selling the 40/32 pair if they're clean. Not sure when Raleigh decided to go normal with 36/36H. Sometime in the early 70s.

Probably later than 1972. That is the year that the lined AWs and the 6-point Heron cranks turned up, so you can have a '72 with an unlined hub and a 9-point crank, but either way it will be 32-40 front and rear.

groth 09-21-18 01:45 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 20578499)
Got it in one. I found an aluminum spacer at Ace that looks to be a good candidate.



Probably later than 1972. That is the year that the lined AWs and the 6-point Heron cranks turned up, so you can have a '72 with an unlined hub and a 9-point crank, but either way it will be 32-40 front and rear.

What's the difference between a lined and an unlined AW hub? (How would you tell which one you have and why would it matter?)

Thanks,
Ed

Salubrious 09-21-18 01:49 PM


Originally Posted by groth (Post 20578850)
What's the difference between a lined and an unlined AW hub? (How would you tell which one you have and why would it matter?)

Thanks,
Ed

An unlined hub has a smooth finish. Lined hubs have lines running around their circumference. I like to think that the machining is better on the earlier smooth hubs; this appears to be so in particular with 1950s to early 1960s hubs.

JohnDThompson 09-21-18 02:37 PM


Originally Posted by groth (Post 20578850)
What's the difference between a lined and an unlined AW hub? (How would you tell which one you have and why would it matter?)

The ribbed hub shell was a cosmetic change around 1972. The internals are the same before and after this change.

AW hub with a smooth shell:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/sa-smooth.jpg

Later AW hub with ribbed shell:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/sa-ribbed-shell.jpg

cudak888 09-21-18 03:22 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 20578261)
I'm pretty sure all Raleigh frames are hollow. ;) OK, sorry.

:lol:

groth 09-21-18 04:21 PM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 20578950)
The ribbed hub shell was a cosmetic change around 1972. The internals are the same before and after this change.

AW hub with a smooth shell:

Thanks, and to Salubrious as well.

Mine is a 72-1 unlined hub. (Also, it's 40 - 32, rear - front and a 9 point heron ring.)

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bab4dc0988.jpg


I've owned this bike since it was new and am "resurrecting" it, not restoring it.

This forum and Sheldon's pages have been very helpful. I hope to post more photos and the story of the bike in the not too distant future.

- Ed

cudak888 09-21-18 06:08 PM


Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 20577109)
I won't disagree that the 50's Raleighs were nicer frames, but I have done plenty of fast descents on the later TI Industries frames. (Hello, Bay City Hill!) I think the wheels and brakes are more important than the frame when it comes to descents. It might be blasphemy, but I love the stopping power combination of modern aluminum rims with more modern brakes and Kool Stop pads. I've upgraded the wheels and brakes on all my three speeds.

All fair points - forgot who mentioned so in this thread earlier, but it really depends on the individual frame itself.

That said, I've been meaning (for 5 years now) to throw long-reach dual pivots at my 1980 Raleigh Sport (the one that Pastor Bob unearthed from the NH dump site). It might actually happen too, as I wound up acquiring a nondescript 2000's ladies' city bike from a neighbor - apparently, it was brought over here from the UK and has a pair of modern, aluminum Rigida 590 rims on it. Even better,a modern Sturmey AW too. Has galvanized spokes, but I'd like to re-lace my Dynohub back into it, along with a 4-speed. Should be an interesting ride.

-Kurt

Cute Boy Horse 09-21-18 06:44 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20578208)
A couple years ago, I shipped a pair of Raleigh patent rims from a 54 to a forum member. Cost was $16 or $18, I can't remember. They were ok rims that I had soaked in OA, but not great. I wouldn't call them "clean." The only old Raleigh rims that I've encountered that were "clean" are on a 51 step through. They are some sort of stainless type alloy. Stainless spokes, too. The moved to plain carbon steel in 52 or so.

Of course, I've seen many pictures of old Raleighs here with what appear to be plain steel rims with chrome in excellent condition -- just never encountered one in person.

Not quite. Stainless rims was always an optional extra, except for those couple years in the mid 50s where Superbe was upgraded to always have mudguard light, stainless rims and FG hub. Very quickly they undid that upgrade, I think as a cost reduction.

When they stopped the optional stainless I'm not sure. If I had to guess I'd say mid/late 60s. Of course this is all UK spec info.

BigChief 09-21-18 07:04 PM


Originally Posted by groth (Post 20579098)
Thanks, and to Salubrious as well.

Mine is a 72-1 unlined hub. (Also, it's 40 - 32, rear - front and a 9 point heron ring.)

I've owned this bike since it was new and am "resurrecting" it, not restoring it.

This forum and Sheldon's pages have been very helpful. I hope to post more photos and the story of the bike in the not too distant future.

- Ed

That's great. I love stories like this. Most of the project bikes here on this thread lean toward preservation or just getting old neglected bikes useful and on the road again. There might be some restoration or modification involved, but very rarely do you see a total, like new restoration project among the English roadster folks. Yes, please post pics of your project as it comes along. Seeing other people's projects is what makes this thread fun.

Buellster 09-21-18 09:04 PM

+1 to that!

garryg 09-21-18 09:16 PM

My wife brought home a Raleigh laurentian that she found on the side of the road with a free sign on it.i think it is a Canadian model of the sport. I jumped on it and I am telling you it brought back memories of being a kid. My brother and I did a three day tour by ourselves on three speed sturmeys when we were 13and15years old. My 93year old mother still can.t believe she let us do that.

BigChief 09-22-18 04:10 AM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 20579267)
All fair points - forgot who mentioned so in this thread earlier, but it really depends on the individual frame itself.

That said, I've been meaning (for 5 years now) to throw long-reach dual pivots at my 1980 Raleigh Sport (the one that Pastor Bob unearthed from the NH dump site). It might actually happen too, as I wound up acquiring a nondescript 2000's ladies' city bike from a neighbor - apparently, it was brought over here from the UK and has a pair of modern, aluminum Rigida 590 rims on it. Even better,a modern Sturmey AW too. Has galvanized spokes, but I'd like to re-lace my Dynohub back into it, along with a 4-speed. Should be an interesting ride.

-Kurt

I can recommend Tektro R559 calipers. I have them on one bike. They fit Raleigh light roadster frames perfectly and leave room for mudguards. The cables attach to the right side of the caliper so you get that neater, in my opinion cable routing like English Raleighs with right hand to front routing. I did have an issue with rear lever travel and ended up adding 2 cable stops to the top tube, but your 80 will already have them. Excellent brakes. Pricey, but a good value.

dweenk 09-22-18 12:55 PM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 20572265)
New ad by a regular dealer-type in the Chesapeake area has showed up in the local CL featuring 3-speeds. He's never shown bikes like this before and it looks like he might have some of our kind of iron. Worth a call to find out. Good luck!

https://richmond.craigslist.org/bik/...700627527.html

Do You Need A Bike Today???? (Chesapeake Great Bridge)


https://images.craigslist.org/00E0E_...F6_600x450.jpg
https://images.craigslist.org/01313_...85_600x450.jpg

bicycle type: other
frame size: other
wheel size: other/unknown Need or want a bike today?
We have tons of bikes for sale everyday available any time

Vintage steel road bikes, hybrids, commuters, cruisers, BMX, MTB, Old School
Quality brand adult bikes in all sizes, all working. $75 and up
Tandems
Muscle Bikes
Cruisers
Tank Bikes
Worksmans
Folding Bikes
hybrids

The bike does not have the "Red Hand of Ulster" chainwheel, so I declined to buy. The seller says he may have a lead to one, but we we will have to see. I am getting more picky it seems.

Buellster 09-22-18 01:46 PM

Anyone have any experience with folding three speeds?
How does the sizing work? Is it a one size fits all just keep raising the seat and bars type thing?
Is the hub the same as other models?
and ballpark is there a guess on its age?
they want $100 for it.
only pic avaible
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e2e06d01e9.jpg

BigChief 09-22-18 02:22 PM

They have a lot of fans here. Must be fun bikes. That one bugs me because the heron crank was replaced with a dual chainwheel. A monstrous one at that. Yikes, that must be tall gearing. Seems to be missing it's 3 speed hub. Goofy brake cable routing. I think you would be better off with a non messed up one. They also come in non folders like this;

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...098d2313a5.jpg

Buellster 09-22-18 03:00 PM

Oh man I didnt even spot that chainring till you pointed it out. Dont know how I missed that!
that alone makes it a no. I've only seen one or two pop up, I wasnt really planning on going for this one but I wanted to ask what the vibe on them is. The last one I saw was up for $50, it was rougher but anything some rags and aluminum foil couldnt solve haha
I'll wait for a deal like that again.

BigChief 09-22-18 03:46 PM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 20580204)
The bike does not have the "Red Hand of Ulster" chainwheel, so I declined to buy. The seller says he may have a lead to one, but we we will have to see. I am getting more picky it seems.

It's good to be picky. Makes it more fun when the right one shows up. But I must say that pre TI Rudges, in fact all pre 1960 English roadsters are getting rare. They didn't used to be. Makes me wonder what happened to them all. Still, they do still show up and luckily, the old ones don't command higher prices than the later models. Right now there's a late 50s 23" Raleigh Sports up by me that looks like it would turn out nicely. Trouble is the rims are toast and it has a SW hub that I would never bother with. Even if I got it for $80, there's no way the project would come in at under 250 by the time it was finished. Wheels are expensive. It really hurts the bottom line. It is tempting though.

https://maine.craigslist.org/bik/d/c...691823679.html

thumpism 09-22-18 06:40 PM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 20580204)
The bike does not have the "Red Hand of Ulster" chainwheel, so I declined to buy. The seller says he may have a lead to one, but we we will have to see. I am getting more picky it seems.

Sorry this one didn't work out. Keep looking and you'll find the right one.

SirMike1983 09-22-18 06:56 PM

The folding Twenty is an excellent bike. The frame folds, but is still quite robust. The handlebars and saddle post collapse down easily with the rotating handle controls. Tires and tubes can still be bought because they use a BMX-sized rim. They are not overly expensive to buy, but have come up in price a bit over the past few years. They used to be very, very cheap. But they've found a greater following lately.

Do not confuse the Twenty with the RSW. The Twenty is more of a "full bike", whereas the RSW is somewhat undersized and uses a lower pressure, slower-running tire. The Twenty performs almost as well as a full-sized Raleigh Sports. It's a folding bike with good performance and good strength.

I agree that holding out for a very original example is preferable. There are plenty of mods that can be done to make them more "modern", but even in stock form, it's a good peforming bike. I think the stock format has more of the classic 1970s character than the heavily-upgraded ones, especially if you get one with a nice coat of Bronze Green on it.

Ballenxj 09-22-18 08:08 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 20580586)
Do not confuse the Twenty with the RSW. The Twenty is more of a "full bike", whereas the RSW is somewhat undersized and uses a lower pressure, slower-running tire. The Twenty performs almost as well as a full-sized Raleigh Sports. It's a folding bike with good performance and good strength.

How does a novice spot the difference between the Twenty and an RSW? I'm guessing the first thing would be tire size?

Buellster 09-22-18 09:51 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 20580586)
The folding Twenty is an excellent bike. The frame folds, but is still quite robust. The handlebars and saddle post collapse down easily with the rotating handle controls. Tires and tubes can still be bought because they use a BMX-sized rim. They are not overly expensive to buy, but have come up in price a bit over the past few years. They used to be very, very cheap. But they've found a greater following lately.
...
I agree that holding out for a very original example is preferable. There are plenty of mods that can be done to make them more "modern", but even in stock form, it's a good peforming bike. I think the stock format has more of the classic 1970s character than the heavily-upgraded ones, especially if you get one with a nice coat of Bronze Green on it.

Great info thanks!
yeah this is the most expensive one I've seen so far, it is only the 2nd one ive seen also. Not really enough for a reliable data set haha
I dont necessarily need it be all original but I would want the upgrades to be elegant. A massive double chainring on a 3 speed doesnt strike me as such.
haha

thumpism 09-23-18 04:29 PM

Well, it's here. Fished it out of the dumpster in the rain at the co-op's new location after letting it sit there for a couple of weeks. I figured if it was unreachably covered with more scrap or had been grabbed by now then I was spared having to bring it home and would only feel badly about some of those rod brake parts getting away. As it is, the brake pads will replace the (wrong!) Dia Compe pads on the rear of my complete-but-ratty Tourist and I'll hang the rest from the rafters as garage decor until someone who needs it comes along. It's a 24" frame with a slight dent in the top tube.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ea43110e9f.jpg


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