Bike Forums

Bike Forums (https://www.bikeforums.net/forum.php)
-   Classic & Vintage (https://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php?f=181)
-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Scipunk 10-09-17 09:14 PM


Originally Posted by PilotFishBob (Post 19919243)
I use a Park lock ring tool for lock rings, not sure what to use for a generic alternative. On the master link I just use a beefy set of needle-nose pliers to pop the U-plate. Getting it back on is a PITA though...


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19919310)
The official park tool spanners are HCW 5 and HCW 11 but a punch for the lock ring is fine. You might be able to unscrew the adjustable cup by hand. If it's too stiff to unscrew by hand, grab onto that raised part with pliers for leverage. The threads are fine and delicate, so you don't want to use any tool to hold the outside diameter. It shouldn't be very tight. The fixed cup on the other side is another story. It's a LH thread and a real bear to remove, so don't. Just reach in with a rag and a stick to clean it out.
For those clips on master links, I use a screwdriver to push it forward before I lift it off with needle nose pliers.

Thanks for the tips guys. Now how does one grease the fixed side bearings?

johnnyspaghetti 10-10-17 12:17 AM

Both crank arms need to come off to to remove the shaft. It would be better to remove all 45 year old petrified grease out of the cups. It can be hardened on to parts may need scraped with pick type tool in a manor not to scratch the bearing race it will break up with a very light scraping. Hardend grease is too dry & stuck and solvents don't soften deposits.The bearing track in the cup not very wide Its the same width as on the shaft

I have shot grease into the fixed cup without complete disassembly/shaft removal with a big syringe before but is a short cut and is only adding fresh grease to a dirty hardened grease and will eventually start mixing hard dirty grease into the bearing. Not the way to go.

The fixed cup on the sprocket side does not need to be remove to do a BB grease nicely. Careful not to loose bearings down frame tubes I think each side has 11 bearings. When you repack it will look llike one is missing but is correct.
Youtube seems to have vidios of most procedures and find very helpful.

johnnyspaghetti 10-10-17 01:35 AM

Before 1963 the Sports had a grease/oiling port on the sprocket side. My 62 Sports has a plastic one the same as The SA 3 speed hub.

https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&i...1&disp=safe&zw

BigChief 10-10-17 07:37 AM

I always save the chop sticks that come with Thai take out. They're handy for all sorts of things and this is one of them. I have a headband flashlight I use when working on bikes. Another handy tool that puts light right where I need it. So I use the chop stick to place the grease into the fixed side cup and the light to see inside the bottom bracket. Grease will hold the 11 drive side bearings on the spindle while I fish it through the hole in the fixed cup. I hold it in place with one hand and screw on the adjustable cup that's already loaded with the other.
Speaking of bearings, this is just something I do. Many times, if you reuse the old bearings you can feel a bit of roughness as you spin the crank. When you use new bearings, it spins smooth as silk. When I go through the trouble of rebuilding a BB I like the satisfying feeling of a silky smooth rotation when I'm done even if it isn't something you would notice riding the bike.

dweenk 10-10-17 08:04 AM

I use an artist's palette knife to scrape hardened grease from the cups. You can find one with a profile that nearly matches the curvature of the cup.

BigChief 10-10-17 08:53 AM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 19919865)
I use an artist's palette knife to scrape hardened grease from the cups. You can find one with a profile that nearly matches the curvature of the cup.

Can you use that on the fixed cup while it's still in place? Usually mineral spirits will clean up the cups, but if there's still some dark spots I'll go to a stronger solvent like acetone or naptha. After that, I'll call it quits and put the BB back together. I don't like removing the fixed cup. Even though I have the Bikesmith fixed cup tool it puts so much torque on the BB I'm afraid I'll bend something. Maybe that's a needless worry. I have done it a few times. Mostly with the friction method, but the last time with the Bikesmith tool. This tool is worth every penny if you're determined to remove fixed BB cups.

dweenk 10-10-17 10:56 AM

[MENTION=398265]BigChief[/MENTION] Most palette knives are long enough to reach the cup while it is in place. Like you, I leave the fixed cup in place whenever I can.

bazil4696 10-10-17 10:56 AM

A quick and dirty trick I have used in servicing junk dept store bikes that need bottom bracket lubrication is to just remove the seat and pour a couple ounces of motor oil down the seatpost. You can see dirty rusty oil run out the axle on both sides as it flushes while you spin the crank...

3speedslow 10-10-17 11:35 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Lots of good tidbits for repair work! I never remove the fixed cup either.

Got the NDS arm back on, got to use the same nut with the pin I got from the LBS.

3alarmer 10-10-17 02:17 PM


Originally Posted by Scipunk (Post 19919210)
So i got a couple pics for ya
First is it looks like someone tried to use a hammer and chisel to undo the lock ring in the past...



Other than the lock ring tool is there any other safe way to unscrew this? I don't want to damage it anymore than the previous "mechanic" did

...the best tool for lock ring removal and reinstallation is a lock ring plier. VAR made one for a while, but no longer does ( I think) and Hozan makes and sells one that works pretty well. If you look at a picture of the Hozan, and have both a bench grinder and an old pump plier to sacrifice, you can make your own in about 20 minutes.

https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/OTQzWDEwM...UwcXM/$_58.JPG

Salubrious 10-10-17 02:45 PM


Originally Posted by Scipunk (Post 19919210)
So i got a couple pics for ya
First is it looks like someone tried to use a hammer and chisel to undo the lock ring in the past...

Other than the lock ring tool is there any other safe way to unscrew this? I don't want to damage it anymore than the previous "mechanic" did

Also I'm a bit rusty on chains but this one is a master link type?

Untitled by David Ashe, on Flickr

if so how does one remove it? I am replacing the chain but i wanna keep the original stuff

Here's a little tip when installing the master link: The fish swims downstream. This probably is more important on a motorbike but might was well get that detail about the spring retainer of the master link right.

Scipunk 10-10-17 06:05 PM

UGH! So i managed to get a wrench for the lock ring.

Now onto the BS of the evening: I have a drill press vice, which failed to remove the pin from the crank of the 64,i used a 3/8's socket as noted and slowly cranked it but alas the angle was wrong so i stopped but not before the handle on the vice bent and snapped off...

No biggie i can just return it tomorrow. it seems the only way to get he arm into the vice flat is to tilt it 90 deg on it's side.

So i tried the nut on the end hammer method and well all it seems to do oddly is push the nut onto the pin ... seriously? I have resprayed it with PB blaster but i feel there is a larger issue:

I spun the crank while waiting and i think it may have a bent axle (it could just be the sprocket is bent but its making me worried that whoever last worked on this over tightened everything, im currently at a loss :(

3alarmer 10-10-17 07:36 PM

.
...the biggest problem in extracting cotter pins is that many of them were not coated with grease prior to reinsertion, and many of them have been in place for a long time, in all sorts of weather. So they corrode in place to some extent. If you already hit it with a hammer, and did not hit it hard enough to pop it loose on the first couple of tries, it's probly bent by now. :(

Even the dedicated cotter press is not 100% guaranteed. Sometinmes no matter how skillfully you apply the pressure, the pin bens on the threaded end, rather than breaking free. some other things that can help are the application of a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF, right down into the space that is open in the crank arm after you remove the nut and washer. And heat, applied carefully and judiciously to the pin with a butane torch can sometimes expand and cool it so the mating surfaces break free.

I have drilled out at least a dozen of them in the time I've been doing this sort of stuff. It's actually not that difficult, if you set up correctly in the first place. All you drill out is the threaded end and just a little past where the pin goes into the crank. then you insert a pin punch of the correct size and hit it with a big hammer. the cotter is softer steel than either the crank or the spindle.

Somehow you need to have the arm you're working on secured in a vice while you are doing this.

If you have manged to remove the drive side crank arm, you can usually just pull out the remaining arm, spindle, and adjustable cup to make it easier to work on.

BigChief 10-10-17 08:24 PM

I'll describe my next step process. If the press bends the threaded end of the cotter and it isn't budging, I center punch the end of the pin so the drill doesn't wander off. Then I drill down enough so there's a concave surface on the end of the cotter. The whole point of this is to make sure the punch you drive the pin with doesn't slip off to the side. You want the full force of the punch centered on the cotter. Then I cut a piece of 2x4 to fit between the crank arm and a hard surface floor. Concrete or pavement works well. Also, I make a notch on top of the 2x4 to make room for the pin to drop out. Wood makes a great support for the crank arm because it won't scratch the chrome. It's important to have a punch that's as hefty as possible and still fit snugly in the concave surface you made in the top of the cotter. The only catch here is you need access to a good punch set and a cement floor. Hang in there, you'll win in the end.

Scipunk 10-10-17 08:25 PM


Originally Posted by 3alarmer (Post 19921518)
.
...the biggest problem in extracting cotter pins is that many of them were not coated with grease prior to reinsertion, and many of them have been in place for a long time, in all sorts of weather. So they corrode in place to some extent. If you already hit it with a hammer, and did not hit it hard enough to pop it loose on the first couple of tries, it's probly bent by now. :(

Even the dedicated cotter press is not 100% guaranteed. Sometinmes no matter how skillfully you apply the pressure, the pin bens on the threaded end, rather than breaking free. some other things that can help are the application of a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF, right down into the space that is open in the crank arm after you remove the nut and washer. And heat, applied carefully and judiciously to the pin with a butane torch can sometimes expand and cool it so the mating surfaces break free.

I have drilled out at least a dozen of them in the time I've been doing this sort of stuff. It's actually not that difficult, if you set up correctly in the first place. All you drill out is the threaded end and just a little past where the pin goes into the crank. then you insert a pin punch of the correct size and hit it with a big hammer. the cotter is softer steel than either the crank or the spindle.

Somehow you need to have the arm you're working on secured in a vice while you are doing this.

If you have manged to remove the drive side crank arm, you can usually just pull out the remaining arm, spindle, and adjustable cup to make it easier to work on.

Thanks for this man, i was feeling defeated to be honest. I know they can be a pain, but i will try the drive side tomorrow and see if i can get that to work. I re-soaked them in PB blaster but i think ill try the atf/acetone mix.

I did notice that the whole thing seemed a touch loose in the BB like i can rock it also, the non drive side cotter was in fact rusty on half of the rounded end, and that the drive side pin non threaded side isn't but has like grip marks from pliers on it like someone squeezed the top of it. Also i think the sprocket might just be a little warped in one spot but i can fix that.
I'll get pics tomorrow

Scipunk 10-10-17 08:28 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19921603)
I'll describe my next step process. If the press bends the threaded end of the cotter and it isn't budging, I center punch the end of the pin so the drill doesn't wander off. Then I drill down enough so there's a concave surface on the end of the cotter. The whole point of this is to make sure the punch you drive the pin with doesn't slip off to the side. You want the full force of the punch centered on the cotter. Then I cut a piece of 2x4 to fit between the crank arm and a hard surface floor. Concrete or pavement works well. Also, I make a notch on top of the 2x4 to make room for the pin to drop out. Wood makes a great support for the crank arm because it won't scratch the chrome. It's important to have a punch that's as hefty as possible and still fit snugly in the concave surface you made in the top of the cotter. The only catch here is you need access to a good punch set and a cement floor. Hang in there, you'll win in the end.

Thanks for this as well BC. RJ the bike guy showed this method for removing the cotter if it was intact, the adaption works for this if it's bent.

Funny story i had planned on making the 2x4 piece and going that route first, and my entire deck is concrete so i am good there.

Update tomorrow!

BigChief 10-11-17 04:01 AM

This could be plain luck, but I haven't had to do this since I started using the Bikesmith cotter press. That has a concave surface on the drive pin which centers the pressure much better than the flat bench vise jaw. The thing you want to avoid here is the drill slipping off the cotter and making a mess of the crank arm. So start with a center punch then a small drill to get the hole started. It might even be a good idea to file a small flat surface on the cotter end before you center punch.
I have seen here on this thread people having to drill the cotter all the way through before they could punch the cotter out. In all my years of 3 speeding, I have never had to do this. Hope I never will. So far, I have been able to punch them through using a 2x4 for support and I think the concave surface made by the drill helps a lot.

plympton 10-11-17 07:32 AM


Originally Posted by Scipunk (Post 19921373)
UGH! So i managed to get a wrench for the lock ring.

Now onto the BS of the evening: I have a drill press vice, which failed to remove the pin from the crank of the 64,i used a 3/8's socket as noted and slowly cranked it but alas the angle was wrong so i stopped but not before the handle on the vice bent and snapped off...

No biggie i can just return it tomorrow. it seems the only way to get he arm into the vice flat is to tilt it 90 deg on it's side.

So i tried the nut on the end hammer method and well all it seems to do oddly is push the nut onto the pin ... seriously? I have resprayed it with PB blaster but i feel there is a larger issue:

I spun the crank while waiting and i think it may have a bent axle (it could just be the sprocket is bent but its making me worried that whoever last worked on this over tightened everything, im currently at a loss :(

I am new to bicycles and took off my first cotters last week. 1st oil, oil, oil, then light taps with hammer, then c- clamps with socket [bent them], then pipe clamps with socket [bent them], Bigger hammer [gave up on saving cotters] finally heat and hammer got them out. [beware of plastic race in some years]. Purchased 4 new modified cotters; my first project purchase.

BigChief 10-11-17 07:55 AM

I may someday have to eat my words here, but I think the whole trick to getting cotters out if they bend with a press is to make a countersink with a drill that's in line with the cotter. When they're bent, it's like trying to hammer a bent nail without that. Put some support under the crank and give her the dinnah like they say up in Maine.

gster 10-11-17 08:05 AM


Originally Posted by bazil4696 (Post 19920286)
A quick and dirty trick I have used in servicing junk dept store bikes that need bottom bracket lubrication is to just remove the seat and pour a couple ounces of motor oil down the seatpost. You can see dirty rusty oil run out the axle on both sides as it flushes while you spin the crank...

Yes, a good quick fix

gster 10-11-17 08:06 AM


Originally Posted by Scipunk (Post 19919320)
Thanks for the tips guys. Now how does one grease the fixed side bearings?

There's a special inexpensive tool available.
Your finger...

Velocivixen 10-11-17 08:22 AM

I use a grease gun with a long nozzle - I think the brand is Finish Line. I hold a small flashlight in my mouth to aim light. To remove grease I use a long screwdriver with paper towel or something on the end, my fingers and Q-tips.

Salubrious 10-11-17 11:36 AM

With regards to cotter pins- if I can make a recommendation?

A can of Kroil is very helpful. If the bike shows a lot of corrosion, don't attempt to remove the cotter before giving the nut side (nut removed) a good dose of Kroil (available from Kanolabs.com). Let it sit for 15 minutes at least. Then use a good cotter press like the Bikesmith (a cotter press is mandatory for cotter installation BTW- so if you work on older bikes, a cotter press is an important tool). Work it on a bit, but pay attention to the cotter- is the threaded end staying straight? If the cotter is freed up, the torque on the press will drop dramatically. If the cotter is bending, the torque will be higher. You can avoid nightmarish tales like seen on this thread by paying attention to this subtlety.

If the cotter is not freeing up right away, have some patience and give it another dose of Kroil then let it sit for a day and try again. Kroil has a nasty odor so better do this in the garage...

dweenk 10-11-17 12:45 PM

I use a modified Harbor Freight chain tool as a press, and lots of patience and penetrating oil. I allow about a week for the penetrating oil to work - applying it every day, then I apply the press. If the cotter doesn't move, I lightly tap on the crank arm using a wood block as a cushion.

I find that I can crank the press a bit more - maybe not all the way - but an hour or two later it comes out.

So far, about a dozen bikes, I have not had to drill a cotter. Maybe I am lucky.

JohnDThompson 10-11-17 04:05 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 19922245)
I use a grease gun with a long nozzle - I think the brand is Finish Line.

You can also get a needle nozzle for a standard grease gun:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....aL._SX425_.jpg

https://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Desi...eedle+injector

Works well to inject grease into cable housings as well. :thumb:


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:18 PM.


Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.