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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

keithdavis2 10-16-20 10:25 AM

Looking nice is it done yet?

keithdavis2 10-16-20 10:27 AM

Well hopefully this will be post number 10. Didn't realize you couldn't quote something that someone else posted which had pictures.

1989Pre 10-17-20 08:33 AM

Proper Brake Cables
 
Deleted.

thumpism 10-17-20 06:35 PM

Beauty!

https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/...215163724.html

Vintage 3-Speed RALEIGH Bike with 26" Wheels - $225 (McLean)


https://images.craigslist.org/00t0t_...t2_600x450.jpg

bicycle frame material: steel
bicycle type: road
brake type: caliper
condition: good
electric assist: none
frame size: 20 inches
handlebar type: flat
make / manufacturer: Raleigh
model name / number: Cameo
serial number: N/A
suspension: none (rigid)
wheel size: 26 in
Original owner offers this beautiful burgundy-colored bicycle that he purchased for his wife when it was new in Paris in 1981. It has been stored indoors ever since. This was one of the last Raleighs manufactured in England, so its workmanship is outstanding. Because it has been lightly used, it still has the following original equipment of a Raleigh Cameo in working condition: Sturmey Archer 3-speed gear shift, luggage rack with bungy cord, kickstand, a bell, a comfortable leather seat with springs, caliper brakes, and full front and rear fenders. Although it is in very good conditon overall, there are several spots of rust on one of the wheels. This is a safe, sturdy bicycle that would be good for a student, but it is heavier than touring bicycles with 10 or more speeds. Visit to see the bicycle by appointment only. Cash and carry.

keithdavis2 10-18-20 12:45 PM

Ok I have eleven post now so I think I can put the pictures of my Royals.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2350c4c32d.jpg
The men's is just Royal and the woman's is a Royal Scot.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1217786a72.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d35017b47c.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e1353969a9.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...308e4d4f8b.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d442db2a01.jpg

Super.bee 10-18-20 12:55 PM

Royal, and rust sealer tips?
 

Originally Posted by keithdavis2 (Post 21748610)
Ok I have eleven post now so I think I can put the pictures of my Royals.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2350c4c32d.jpg
The men's is just Royal and the woman's is a Royal Scot.



https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...308e4d4f8b.jpg

I like them both. I'm working on a Royal restoration myself right now. While I try to determine my best way forward with a stick cotter (forgot to leave the nut on when pressing out), I made an impromptu acid tank for rusty parts. I thought the rims were goners but got them bright with a citric acid bath. Now I'm trying to figure out how to keep them that way. I'm figuring either a clear coat, maybe acrylic, or a couple coats of Simoniz. Any experience anyone? This is both on the braking surface and the flat inside surface between spokes. On a related topic, I've read that when derusting a frame, etc, with acid, the rust will return. Is this true even if you apply boeshield or frame saver? Does it matter how much rust you've removed - is the thought that there's enough water and oxygen in the remaining rust to keep it going?

Thanks for the great projects and advice.

albrt 10-18-20 07:59 PM

1960 SpeedKing 3 speed
 
The charity shop where I volunteer received a black three-speed SpeedKing as a donation. The Sturmey-Archer hub is dated 1960 and the general appearance is consistent with this date. The stickers and head-badge say made in England, but not where. The only two brands from this period that I have first-hand experience with are Phillips and Raleigh. Subjectively it looks more like a Phillips than a Raleigh to me, but there are no obvious giveaway branded parts that I can see.

I posted this on the Classic & Vintage forum, and with some help figured out that SpeedKing was a house brand for J.G. Graves out of Sheffield. Still don't know the manufacturer.

I have a few hours/posts to go until I can post pictures or links, but a kind soul put up a few of my pictures on the other thread. I'll post more here when I have the capability.

Meanwhile, I'm just looking for information so I can learn more about what I'm working on and try not to destroy anything that might have value. This bike is too small for me to keep, so it will be sold at the shop here in Phoenix, AZ. I like to give the buyer a little history if I can - I think it increases the odds of survival for the bike.

JaccoW 10-19-20 09:34 AM

Cross post from the The Wacky World of Craigslist and eBay Ads-thread. Just a fun bit of bicycle weirdness of the Dutch second-hand market.

This is a Simplex CycloÔde Tour 'kruisframe', also known as a Pastor's bicycle, cross frame, X-frame or 'Kreuzrahmen' in German. It's one of the oldest bicycle shapes and an alternative to the classic diamond frame.
They were common from the early 20th century but after the 1930's most manufacturers stopped making them. with only a few still making them.

Compared to the US bicycle prices are fairly cheap on the Dutch second-hand market but these, fairly heavy but stiff, frames can go for well over €1000 (~$1200) sometimes.

Currently at €550 but not sold yet. 3-speed Sturmey Archer (?) with drum brakes.

Simplex Cycloide kruisframe 1957

- Marktplaats

http://i.imgur.com/fm3YoRz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CZSllYs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CXyoqVa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GGjxETx.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zcPt3qL.jpg

Here is one for a Raleigh version with rod brakes.

http://i.imgur.com/IENjLd4.jpg

cudak888 10-19-20 10:55 AM


Originally Posted by JaccoW (Post 21749759)
Cross post from the The Wacky World of Craigslist and eBay Ads-thread. Just a fun bit of bicycle weirdness of the Dutch second-hand market.

Here is one for a Raleigh version with rod brakes.

Oooh. Always wanted to dig one of these up. You can't mistake one of these for being a modern 3-speed - something that's happened on a few occasions with my '51.

-Kurt

albrt 10-19-20 01:31 PM

1960 SpeedKing
 

Originally Posted by albrt (Post 21749214)
The charity shop where I volunteer received a black three-speed SpeedKing as a donation. The Sturmey-Archer hub is dated 1960 and the general appearance is consistent with this date. The stickers and head-badge say made in England, but not where. The only two brands from this period that I have first-hand experience with are Phillips and Raleigh. Subjectively it looks more like a Phillips than a Raleigh to me, but there are no obvious giveaway branded parts that I can see.

I posted this on the Classic & Vintage forum, and with some help figured out that SpeedKing was a house brand for J.G. Graves out of Sheffield. Still don't know the manufacturer.

Here are some pictures of the SpeedKing. Any guesses as to the manufacturer?


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2650126cb8.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...87cd953bc5.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5d9836df65.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a351a44bef.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...10d1e6ed8b.jpg

bluesteak 10-19-20 03:01 PM

Speedking
 
My guess would be Norman, since it has a sa hub it isnít a Hercules. Was Hercules part of TI in 1960.

bluesteak 10-19-20 03:05 PM

Speedking
 
Does anyone have a clue about the lugs? Iíve never seen that shape cutout.

albrt 10-19-20 03:10 PM


Originally Posted by bluesteak (Post 21750464)
Does anyone have a clue about the lugs? Iíve never seen that shape cutout.

My hypothesis is that the front lug cutouts are custom for Graves.

Here is an ad for an earlier (prewar) version.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...79f4cf4350.jpg

BocaJr 10-19-20 03:16 PM

I'm not an expert by any means, but it looks like a Phillips to me. Mid 50's

albrt 10-19-20 03:34 PM


Originally Posted by BocaJr (Post 21750485)
I'm not an expert by any means, but it looks like a Phillips to me. Mid 50's

I have a '58 Phillips Manhattan. The stem is identical, the fenders are similar, the overall look of the bike is similar, but there are significant differences too. And I just don't know much about the other midlands manufacturers.

Salubrious 10-19-20 04:35 PM


Originally Posted by albrt (Post 21750262)
Here are some pictures of the SpeedKing. Any guesses as to the manufacturer?


The rear dropouts are usually a clue- and they say this isn't a Raleigh-mde frame rebadged, that makes it more interesting. Nice lugs.

albrt 10-19-20 11:45 PM

Let me know if there are other detail pics anybody would like to see.

Since nobody is saying this is rarity that needs to be in a museum I'm going to leave it for sale at the shop for a couple hundred bucks (probably $150 if they dicker).

Super.bee 10-20-20 06:03 AM

Rust
 

Originally Posted by Super.bee (Post 21748625)
I made an impromptu acid tank for rusty parts. I thought the rims were goners but got them bright with a citric acid bath. Now I'm trying to figure out how to keep them that way. I'm figuring either a clear coat, maybe acrylic, or a couple coats of Simoniz. Any experience anyone?

Found this... It and following posts are helpful!

carfreefamily 10-20-20 11:21 AM

Bent Steerer? How to Repair?
 

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 21731786)
@carfreefamily you may want to check it out. See if it's the headset or something worse like a bent steerer tube, though unlikely.

I finally had time to take the front fork off the 1952 Raleigh to try to determine why it was binding when turned to the side. Even if I started out with the adjustment a little loose, it would be binding again when I got home. I see two things - one, the steerer is wearing on the front, and two, it does look like the steerer tube is bent - curving backwards slightly. Could it be bending progressively, each time I go out? What could bend a steerer tube like that? I've never crashed into anything. The binding seemed to start after a recent 55 mile ride, and I started in the dark and bumped through some sizable cracks in the bike path, that were hard to see in the dark. That's the only thing I could think might have caused the problem, but that's not particularly harsh treatment.
I'm wondering if it is something the local bike builder can sort out for me. I've also seen forks on Ebay, but it seems nicer to keep the bike together. Plus, the fork ends have those recesses the shouldered nuts fit into. I don't know when Raleigh stopped designing them that way.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7a3332b87b.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...60303fbb71.jpg

noglider 10-20-20 12:05 PM

@carfreefamily I don't know how you might have bent it, but it's a serious problem. I've straightened a few forks successfully and also failed to straighten a few. They're tricky to straighten. The steerer tube is the hardest to straighten. Your local frame dude might be able to do it, but do it.

Rherdegen 10-20-20 12:12 PM

Interesting! My ‘51 Superbe had an almost identical bend (perhaps even more significant) and pattern of wear in the steerer tube...this in a bike that I never rode since purchase about 30 years ago, and has been sitting in pieces since then. Only when returning to it this summer did I find the bent fork and a slight bend in the down tube, together suggesting a front-end impact. No local bike shops would touch it, though helpful folks in this forum suggested methods they had used. I ended up taking it for repair to former bike shop owner I found who does custom metalwork, especially on bikes. A rare (and fortunate) find! But if taking on the repair yourself is not your cup of tea, your local frame builder may be better set up to do this sort of tube straightening. (BTW, I asked the gentleman who did my repair how he did it, but he declined to say...said it was his secret technique. 😉)

carfreefamily 10-20-20 01:14 PM


Originally Posted by Rherdegen (Post 21751819)
Interesting! My ‘51 Superbe had an almost identical bend (perhaps even more significant) and pattern of wear in the steerer tube...this in a bike that I never rode since purchase about 30 years ago, and has been sitting in pieces since then. Only when returning to it this summer did I find the bent fork and a slight bend in the down tube, together suggesting a front-end impact.

I went back to see if I had any photos of the fork out of the bike when I first bought it in the late winter of '19. I suspect it may have already had a bend, and it just worsened to the point where it was noticeable. Unfortunately, I didn't take any photos of the fork by itself.

It's interesting about your bike - I wonder if there was something about the early fifties. I haven't heard back from the frame builder, but he was in a newspaper article about how busy bike shops are. Since bikes aren't available, people in town are turning to the framebuilders. It's probably the one bright spot to the pandemic.

Rherdegen 10-20-20 02:02 PM


Originally Posted by carfreefamily (Post 21751974)
I haven't heard back from the frame builder, but he was in a newspaper article about how busy bike shops are. Since bikes aren't available, people in town are turning to the framebuilders. It's probably the one bright spot to the pandemic.

My sense is that In spite of the pandemic, most bike shops arenít interested in unusual jobs on older bikes. In the case of a bent steerer tube (fork, frame, etc.) it may be outside the skill level of their mechanics to do tube bending/straightening. I went into a couple shops to ask about service of a vintage SA 3-speed hub and they wouldnít touch it, either. Perhaps in all these cases the mechanics just donít have the training or expertise, but it also may be that the shops figure it isnít worth their time...just easier to replace with something new than to try to service an older device, get quicker turnover, better profit margin, etc. Maybe thatís just the case in the US, with perhaps a greater inclination to throw away than to repair. Iíd be interested if those in the UK (and other countries) have had similar experiences with service on older/vintage bikes.

Iíll keep my fingers crossed that your frame person can effect the repair. And take a careful look at your down tube as well for any bending (and it may be quite subtle)...just a few inches down from the head tube, around the area of the brazed-on pump peg. If those repeated small impacts were enough to bend the steerer tube, might have caused some bending to frame at that point as well.

carfreefamily 10-20-20 02:21 PM


Originally Posted by Rherdegen (Post 21752068)
Perhaps in all these cases the mechanics just donít have the training or expertise, but it also may be that the shops figure it isnít worth their time...just easier to replace with something new than to try to service an older device, get quicker turnover, better profit margin, etc.

My sense is that the mechanics do not have the training or expertise. There also seems to be a little bit of snobbery about newer equipment. I even get that from bike shop employees that I'm friends with and with whom I have served on city's Bicycle and Trails Advisory Committee. One person, in particular, likes to go off on how backward Grant Petersen's ideas about bicycles are whenever I see him and have my Rivendell with me. Poetic Justice - I passed him handily on the 1952 Raleigh during the last pre-Covid, Santa Fe Century. It's rare in the Southwestern U.S. to see three speeds at all. I don't know, maybe the mountains have something to do with it. I don't think the shop mechanics - most of whom look like teenagers to me - have really ever looked at the outside of a three speed hub, much less taken one apart. I'm not really sure it's all motivated by profit, but there's certainly a lack of intellectual curiousity. I was one of those crawling babies who would unscrew the bottom hinges on all the doors int he house. Taking a three speed hub apart was second nature to me.

There was one great mechanic in town, Art, who would work with joy and skill on anything, but he retired. Most of the mechanics I see just don't seem to really care. And then some of them are just bad. My wife bought a new bike from one local bike shop and asked them to put the kickstand on for her. I watched with horror as the mechanic just cranked down on the nut, trying to figure out what to shout, "Whoa thar pardner!" He completely crushed the chainstays. The bike store did replace the bike. A lot of the home wrenching I do is motivated by abject fear of what my Local Bike Ship might do to my bikes. That's really unfortunate, because I really want to support local bike shops. However, whenever I go in there looking for, say a return spring for the brakes on my 1978 Schwinn Super Le Tour (converted into a three speed), they just look at me like I'm crazy. So, unfortunately, I buy more parts online than I do in my LBS.

Harhir 10-21-20 09:10 AM


Originally Posted by JaccoW (Post 21749759)
Cross post from the The Wacky World of Craigslist and eBay Ads-thread. Just a fun bit of bicycle weirdness of the Dutch second-hand market.

This is a Simplex CycloÔde Tour 'kruisframe', also known as a Pastor's bicycle, cross frame, X-frame or 'Kreuzrahmen' in German. It's one of the oldest bicycle shapes and an alternative to the classic diamond frame.
They were common from the early 20th century but after the 1930's most manufacturers stopped making them. with only a few still making them.

Compared to the US bicycle prices are fairly cheap on the Dutch second-hand market but these, fairly heavy but stiff, frames can go for well over Ä1000 (~$1200) sometimes.

Currently at Ä550 but not sold yet. 3-speed Sturmey Archer (?) with drum brakes.

Simplex Cycloide kruisframe 1957

- Marktplaats

http://i.imgur.com/fm3YoRz.jpg

The company Utopia in Germany still uses that frame design today.


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