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carleton 07-05-18 10:48 AM


Originally Posted by topflightpro (Post 20429570)
The article mentioned a private donation to support this effort, so maybe that donor will stay on top of things to make sure it is happening.

I missed that part. Why would USA Cycling need outside money?


Originally Posted by topflightpro (Post 20429570)
Also, they're targeting 15-21 year olds, which is where they need to be looking.

Jamie Staff said that very thing several times back in 2010 when he was leading the USA Sprint program. I recall hearing it either on a YouTube interview or podcast.

Staff was witness to probably the best recruiting and nurturing programs around while with British Cycling. Joanna Rowsell and Laura Kenny, née Trott were around that age when they were discovered and put on bicycles. They weren't outstanding junior racers before that. They also turned Hoy and Pendleton from pretty good into some of best ever.

We need a long-term program. Not one that gets reinvigorated 2 years before the Olympics then dismantled the week after...which seems to be how we do it :foo:

queerpunk 07-05-18 04:47 PM

****'s expensive, man! USAC isn't government-funded like all the other national programs. It runs on sponsorship, race fees, and outside money.

There has been a long-term program in place for about four years, which is nice. There's a respectable Olympic program right now (which is to say, a team that is developed, coached, supported, and sent to world cups). What they're trying to do with this new youth structure is make sure that the Olympic program keeps getting fed. They're taking steps in the right direction, and I think it's worth it to let them and not gripe about where they're starting from.

carleton 07-05-18 07:36 PM


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 20430875)
****'s expensive, man! USAC isn't government-funded like all the other national programs. It runs on sponsorship, race fees, and outside money.

There has been a long-term program in place for about four years, which is nice. There's a respectable Olympic program right now (which is to say, a team that is developed, coached, supported, and sent to world cups). What they're trying to do with this new youth structure is make sure that the Olympic program keeps getting fed. They're taking steps in the right direction, and I think it's worth it to let them and not gripe about where they're starting from.

That's fair...but as Shakespeare put it, "What's past is prologue."

Identifying athletes isn't that hard...even 15 year olds. They key is to not wait for them to discover the niche of track cycling within the niche of cycling. Go to Track and Field and it'll be like shooting fish in a barrel finding talent. The USA has probably the best track and field grass roots development programs in the world. Those kids have been training their legs and lungs since like age 8. The talented have already been identified.

For the athletes on the US National Team, working to pay bills while putting in the necessary training is the hard part. There are countless stories of US household-name trackies that were already world class that quit because they can't pay adult bills. Bobby Lea gave an interview about it.

I'll rejoice when I see the press release that states the actual salaries and contract lengths that will be paid to those on the team.

carleton 07-07-18 11:54 AM

2018 USA Masters Track Nationals starts today in Trexlertown, PA (TTown, 333M outdoor).

Results can be found here: https://legacy.usacycling.org/2018/m...rack-nationals

carleton 07-07-18 07:39 PM


Originally Posted by spartanKid (Post 20434175)
Technically it's juniors until the 10th, then masters after that until the 15th.

Ah! Thanks for the correction!

(You can tell that I'm not going :( )

Minion1 07-08-18 04:14 AM

Don't know if it's going to format properly, but Charlie Walsh (fmr Aus track coach) put a statement up on FB about using BT as a bike sponsor,

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...00009424077292

I found it through Fyxo's FB, if the link doesn't work...

carleton 07-08-18 03:39 PM


Originally Posted by Minion1 (Post 20434720)
Don't know if it's going to format properly, but Charlie Walsh (fmr Aus track coach) put a statement up on FB about using BT as a bike sponsor,

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...00009424077292

I found it through Fyxo's FB, if the link doesn't work...

Wow.

As I stated a few days ago...


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20426970)
I have $1 that says that this will not end well.





There are generally 4 ways to get equipment for your team:
  • Buy it outright like everyone else.
  • Get a "Pro Deal" sponsorship where you get gear at a reduced price (often at under wholesale prices).
  • Get the gear at no cost.
  • Get paid to use the gear.

If you are a good team, all of these benefit the company that makes the products via "transference". Consumers assume that, "If Athlete/Team uses this gear, it must be great!" or better, "This gear made Athlete/Team great!"

When you are good, you don't have to pay for gear.

When you are great, you get paid to use gear.


Here's my guess as to what's happening in Australia:
  • BT gave bikes, bars, etc... to the AUS track team for free in exchange for publicity (which works).
  • BT did not pay the AUS team to ride the bikes.
  • Simon Jones (Brit from Team Sky) came in and noted the relationship and thought, "Heck...We are one of the very best teams in the world. The team should be getting paid to ride these bikes the same way that [manufacturer A], [manufacturer B], [manufacturer C] paid Team Sky and other pro teams to use their gear.
  • BT said, "Nah. Margins on track frames are low as it is. We can't afford to." or "Nah. We like the deal the way it is now. Take it or leave it."
  • Jones changes the AUS Cycling Team's status to, "Single".
  • Argon18 says, "Sup, gurl?..."


Sound about right?

carleton 07-08-18 03:50 PM

A problem that I see (aside from all of the above) is that Argon18's aren't proven sprint bikes. The AUS team has more top Sprinters than they do Enduros.

It's more difficult to make a top-tier sprint bike than it is to make a top-tier TT bike. Basically, it as to be strong like a tank and nimble like a race car. Aerodynamics come third...because if it's not strong or nimble, top sprinters will not like it.

Argon18 has been making track bikes for a while. I don't think I've ever seen a National level sprinter ride one, much less International.

Further...Why the hell would you change horses 2 years out from the Olympics? Even if Argon18 promises to make a "Porsche 911 on two wheels" for the AUS Sprinters from scratch, how long will that take to perfect? EVERY MILLIMETER of that new bike will be compared to a BT.

700wheel 07-08-18 09:55 PM

Argon statement: https://www.argon18bike.com/en/news/...clingAustralia

carleton 07-08-18 11:30 PM


Originally Posted by spartanKid (Post 20436005)
Is this true? This seems like it might be your sprinter bias showing. Their men's and women's TP squads both won Commonwealth games, and the men set a WR in the process, their women got 2nd and 3rd in the IP, Cameron Meyer has won numerous world titles in bunch races, a bunch of their TP women also do well in bunch races, etc.

You are probably right about my bias towards sprinting. I pay more attention to that stuff.

Maybe the Sprinters get more hype and press. Not sure.


Originally Posted by 700wheel (Post 20436190)

From the website linked above:


What makes us different? We won’t stop until we’ve designed the fastest bike in the world. By combining all of our know-how and expertise in performance, aerodynamics and technology – by taking all we have learned and achieved with our road and triathlon bikes – we have what it takes to design track bikes like no other. And now working in tandem with Cycling Australia, our research and development team is right on track to go further than ever before.

“Our partnership with Cycling Australia for Tokyo 2020 will see us bringing to them Argon 18’s engineering manpower and cutting-edge technology expertise. Working in collaboration with Cycling Australia our goals are precise, and we target on nothing less but the fastest bike in the world. We’re already hard at work with their engineers and mechanics, we want to bring home Gold as much as they do.”

–Martin Faubert, Head of R&D, Argon 18
Soooooo...I read that as they don't have a bike yet :innocent:

queerpunk 07-09-18 06:22 AM

AUS nat'l track team: 7 sprinters, 11 enduros. https://www.australiancyclingteam.com/trackathletes.html

Argon 18 is making a sprint bike. It's 2 years out - it's not really a problem. There are horror stories of new bikes delivered on the eve of competition and things going wrong with them - there are also plenty of stories of new bikes delivered in the lead-up to the Olympics and there's no problem with them. Argon 18 has a track record of supporting national teams (Canada chose them too), collaborating with them on development (their partnership with Denmark led to the Electron Pro) and delivering a hot-off-the-molds world-class bike in the run-up to major events. Australia presumably knows how to write some requirements. I'm sure it's nothing to lose sleep over.

carleton 07-09-18 09:30 AM


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 20436465)
AUS nat'l track team: 7 sprinters, 11 enduros. https://www.australiancyclingteam.co...kathletes.html

Argon 18 is making a sprint bike. It's 2 years out - it's not really a problem. There are horror stories of new bikes delivered on the eve of competition and things going wrong with them - there are also plenty of stories of new bikes delivered in the lead-up to the Olympics and there's no problem with them. Argon 18 has a track record of supporting national teams (Canada chose them too), collaborating with them on development (their partnership with Denmark led to the Electron Pro) and delivering a hot-off-the-molds world-class bike in the run-up to major events. Australia presumably knows how to write some requirements. I'm sure it's nothing to lose sleep over.

I wouldn't say it's not a problem. It's a problem that is manageable. If and how it's managed is the million dollar question.

Compare the 1st generation Felt TK1 to the current TK FRD/TK1. 1st gen had fatal flaws under sprinters that were not issues for enduros. I've talked to top US sprinters that rode these.

Very few products are perfect in the first generation.

It takes a significant amount of time to iterate product designs. How many generations of this new bike can be designed, molds created, manufactured, delivered, tested...all from scratch?

The BT Edge and Stealth are very mature and proven.

Then there is the mental confidence that's required to pour 2,500W into a frame and travel 45mph while rubbing shoulders with another.

As I'm sure you know, Sprinters are abnormally large humans do things to these bikes that normal humans do not.

Hoy snapped off a pedal:
http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c716...isHoypedal.jpg

Vogel lost a saddle:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqBB9r0XEAAVfWl.jpg

Blatchford pulled out of single straps (I can't find the photo).
I have a photo of an Italian (?) guy who broke some bars during a standing start.
Ever notice that top sprinters rarely use Shimano Dura Ace chainrings? (Massie does, though)...it's because they bend them. Not a problem for enduros.


Basically, this bike would be for those on the far right end of the bell curve.

Morelock 07-09-18 09:51 AM

@carleton
Kind of funny the timing... I have been using (tririg) aero stems for a long time with no issues, Since taking up track and finding out I suck at standing starts, I've been working on it a bit.
So Saturday I'm starting my State TT, I pull the base bar up (not a lot thankfully) from my start :notamused: (which is odd, all the bolts were torqued to spec with carbon paste, and I'm not pulling *that* hard)
Needless to say, I went back to a normal stem on the track bike!

carleton 07-09-18 10:37 AM


Originally Posted by Morelock (Post 20436856)
@carleton
Kind of funny the timing... I have been using (tririg) aero stems for a long time with no issues, Since taking up track and finding out I suck at standing starts, I've been working on it a bit.
So Saturday I'm starting my State TT, I pull the base bar up (not a lot thankfully) from my start :notamused: (which is odd, all the bolts were torqued to spec with carbon paste, and I'm not pulling *that* hard)
Needless to say, I went back to a normal stem on the track bike!

Yup!

And the examples that I noted above were just those that I personally happened to notice via press reports online from international competition...which is probably far less than 1% of the time that they spend on a bike. So, they probably break components even more in training.

I watched Steve Hill (a top US Elite/Masters sprinter, 44 at the time) break a chain stay of a Dolan DF3 during a standing start in training one day at DLV. He started into a normal standing start effort then "CRACK".

The struggle is real.

carleton 07-09-18 10:47 AM

I'm talking about the bike that will be built for these guys:
https://cdn-cyclingtips.pressidium.c...8_a11i4414.jpg

Not these guys:
http://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com/201...054940_670.jpg

All are champions. But they have different needs.

Minion1 07-10-18 05:40 AM

Regardless of anything else, it's a gutsy move to leave a proven performer for a bike that hasn't been developed yet, moving away from a specialist track manufacturer for a comparatively unknown entity.
Also, does anyone know why some UK sprinters were on UKSI bikes instead of Cervelos at Apeldoorn? 2 out of the 3 team sprint members were on UKSI bikes, its been something I've been wondering about for a while.

Baby Puke 07-10-18 05:45 AM

I heard the Cervelos were not stiff enough for some of them. Relatively reliable hearsay.

Minion1 07-10-18 05:50 AM

Was just looking at some older pics in this thread, there are photos of Wiggins and Cavendish in a Madison, Cav on a UKSI bike, Wiggins on a cervelo. Seems like it's been an issue for a couple of years.

carleton 07-10-18 10:44 AM


Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 20438617)
I heard the Cervelos were not stiff enough for some of them. Relatively reliable hearsay.

+1

Hindes has at least one Cervelo (likely several were made for him), yet he rides the much-older-tech UKSI and did so in the 2016 Olympics.

Sorry, don't have time to link pics. But, they are all here:

https://www.instagram.com/phindes/

carleton 07-10-18 06:30 PM

1st and ONLY pic of the new Cervelo T5 (9 JULY 2016): https://www.instagram.com/p/BHpjHiYD...ken-by=phindes

Every other pic on his IG, including Olympic races, shows the UKSI bike.

Cervelo (arguably) has better credentials than Argon18, yet they missed the mark with the T5. Yes, some of the British Sprinters did use it, but the latest pic I've seen of Kenny in comp was also on the UKSI frame. If Cervelo hit the mark, then it would be hands-down better than the bikes made before 2012.

This is a recent and directly relevant example of the potential for failure that Argon18 + AIS face right now.

gycho77 07-11-18 02:19 AM

Late 40 Keirin racers vs Mid 20 Olympic speed skaters

Odd number racers are the speed skaters and even number racers are the keirin racers.
Number 5 racer is Olympic Gold medalist(speed skating)

i was told that Korean Speed Skater uses track bike to train in summer


Richard Kennedy 07-11-18 02:21 PM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20430140)
I missed that part. Why would USA Cycling need outside money?



Jamie Staff said that very thing several times back in 2010 when he was leading the USA Sprint program. I recall hearing it either on a YouTube interview or podcast.

Staff was witness to probably the best recruiting and nurturing programs around while with British Cycling. Joanna Rowsell and Laura Kenny, née Trott were around that age when they were discovered and put on bicycles. They weren't outstanding junior racers before that. They also turned Hoy and Pendleton from pretty good into some of best ever.

We need a long-term program. Not one that gets reinvigorated 2 years before the Olympics then dismantled the week after...which seems to be how we do it :foo:

Bit late for the comment, sorry about that, but Laura was not "discovered" by British Cycling coaches. She was breaking National Records in the Under 12's category and continued to break records all through her Youth and Junior years - long before she was old enough to be picked up by the British Cycling programs which helped her develop into the athlete she is now.

See pages 57, 82, 83 and 88 of this list of historical British track records if you really care for the details!

*

700wheel 07-11-18 05:14 PM


Originally Posted by Minion1 (Post 20438624)
Was just looking at some older pics in this thread, there are photos of Wiggins and Cavendish in a Madison, Cav on a UKSI bike, Wiggins on a cervelo. Seems like it's been an issue for a couple of years.

Some pro riders have contracts that specify what make bikes they may ride. I know of two national teams where this applies to some riders (sorry I can't divulge due to NDAs).

carleton 07-11-18 08:22 PM


Originally Posted by Richard Kennedy (Post 20441848)
Bit late for the comment, sorry about that, but Laura was not "discovered" by British Cycling coaches. She was breaking National Records in the Under 12's category and continued to break records all through her Youth and Junior years - long before she was old enough to be picked up by the British Cycling programs which helped her develop into the athlete she is now.

See pages 57, 82, 83 and 88 of this list of historical British track records if you really care for the details!

*

Thanks for the correction!

I think many of the news articles leave out such details. For example, here are consecutive paragraphs on her wikipedia page:


Early life

Laura Trott was born a month prematurely in Harlow in Essex with a collapsed lung and was later diagnosed with asthma. She was advised by doctors to take up sport in order to regulate her breathing. She enjoyed and competed in trampolining but had to give up due to respiratory problems. She grew up in Cheshunt in Hertfordshire, where she attended Turnford School. Her older sister Emma Trott is a former road racing cyclist.

Together with her sister, she began cycling when her mother did so to lose weight.

Career

She won two junior titles at both the 2009 and 2010 British National Track Championships, and placed third in the individual pursuit at the latter to win a place in the 2010 European Track Championships team pursuit squad aged just 18. After winning gold at the Euros, she went on to take her first world title at the 2011 championships, again as part of the team pursuit squad. In the run-up to the 2012 Olympics she won a further two World and two European golds, in both the team pursuit and the ominum, before securing her place in the Great Britain team as those events made their Olympic debut.
I assumed that the 2009 and 2010 success were her age 17-18 big splash into the scene after some small training prior (like Mathilde Gros of France).

After reading your post, I found more detail in this interview: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...ck-london-2012, which still fails to mention her junior records.

All that being said (and I still stand corrected) but Laura Kenny didn't seem to be the perennial junior cycling athlete that shows up at every junior nationals with junior careers like Jamie Staff, Hoy, and Pendleton who both had BMX careers prior.

I guess it's a case of the news reports sticking with the juicy bits. Kinda like Philip Hindes' story. It was portrayed as though he was new to track cycling when Team GB found him in 2012 and made him Man1 for Team Sprint just months before the Olympics. But, he'd been a world-class junior making the podium at junior worlds before that.

carleton 07-11-18 08:27 PM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20433758)
2018 USA Masters Track Nationals starts today in Trexlertown, PA (TTown, 333M outdoor).

Results can be found here: https://legacy.usacycling.org/2018/m...rack-nationals


Originally Posted by spartanKid (Post 20434175)
Technically it's juniors until the 10th, then masters after that until the 15th.

OK. Results from Days 1 and 2 are up now and I assume that they'll continue to be posted going forward.

If you want to see how us old masters are riding in the US, go there and poke around and see the results and times.


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