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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

3speedslow 06-19-19 11:00 AM

Thanks all! Right now I am ready to drill the counter hole for the punch. Might get a bigger one from my friend to use. Already have the 2/4 with the hole drilled into it. Still loading it up with tri flow and Phil’s.

i’m more upset about the rims not working with the spokes. More downtime for my poor Twenty.

Ballenxj 06-19-19 11:13 AM


Originally Posted by mirfi (Post 20986015)
Free Raleigh Three Speed, DC area

https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/...910311657.html

FREE Curb Alert
Bike is FREE! if not gone by Thursday AM, the rubbish men will take it off.
1960s black Raleigh bike with mechanical lever/rod brakes
I put the bike on the curb.
Three speed rear hub.
Parked in shed for the last 40 years.
Hole drilled in frame near the "R" in Raleigh, see pic.
No seat, no fenders, no chain guard
FREE at the curb waiting pickup.

I hope somebody here picks this up! Looks like a 23" frame as well. :thumb:

dweenk 06-19-19 12:18 PM


Originally Posted by mirfi (Post 20986015)
Free Raleigh Three Speed, DC area

https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/...910311657.html

FREE Curb Alert
Bike is FREE! if not gone by Thursday AM, the rubbish men will take it off.
1960s black Raleigh bike with mechanical lever/rod brakes
I put the bike on the curb.
Three speed rear hub.
Parked in shed for the last 40 years.
Hole drilled in frame near the "R" in Raleigh, see pic.
No seat, no fenders, no chain guard
FREE at the curb waiting pickup.

I am on the Eastern Shore. By the time I got there it would be in the hands of an enthusiast or a scrapper and I know a guy who has a pair of NOS fenders. Bummer.

3speedslow 06-19-19 01:12 PM

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0da3fd931.jpeg

Little oil, drill, punch and repeat.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a11290055.jpeg

All nice and clean!
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b3ac749a2.jpeg

Still ready to do the job after 40 years!
Success! Fighting all the way but the cotter finally came out. All BB parts shiny and free of wear. I found chunks of old grease and a petrified wasp but no sock. The Teflon spray was helping it but new grease is what it needs.

The drill bit stayed mostly in the pin but towards the bottom drifted out into the crank. I can see a little divot out of the wall. Both openings are still round. I will be getting new pins, most likely from Mark.

mirfi 06-19-19 02:42 PM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 20986352)
I am on the Eastern Shore. By the time I got there it would be in the hands of an enthusiast or a scrapper and I know a guy who has a pair of NOS fenders. Bummer.

I was wondering who I know in the area that could pick it up for me.. But I don't know anybody that lives on that side of DC.

3speedslow 06-19-19 03:41 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20985990)
Those circlips that hold the cog on the driver are easy to remove. It's getting them back on that's hard for me. I don't even have a good technique to pass along. It's one of those things I just fight with until I win.

Felt like the day was going my way so changed out the 15T for a 17. Easy indeed to get off, getting on is a two thumb hard press job but itís back together.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a97fa3882.jpeg

3speedslow 06-19-19 03:47 PM

Question for the learned: when I pulled the shifter rod, it was covered in black gunk. Poked a plastic stir stick down there and pulled out some really think muck. The hub has been shifting fine and ticking along but... would it be good to fill the hub with some kerosene or other such fluids and drain the swamp in there before the wheel goes back into action?

Fresh oil used afterwards of course!

jackbombay 06-19-19 04:16 PM


Originally Posted by Ballenxj (Post 20986250)
I hope somebody here picks this up! Looks like a 23" frame as well. :thumb:

Whats the deal with the 23" frames? Just fewer of them around?


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 20986665)
Question for the learned: when I pulled the shifter rod, it was covered in black gunk. Poked a plastic stir stick down there and pulled out some really think muck. The hub has been shifting fine and ticking along but... would it be good to fill the hub with some kerosene or other such fluids and drain the swamp in there before the wheel goes back into action?

Fresh oil used afterwards of course!

I'd pull the whole cartridge out but don't disassemble it, you can roll it around in some kero and get it nice and clean the screw it back in.

You can just clamp the outer flange of the drive side of the hub in a bench vice and spin the cartridge out, I've only done 3, but that technique worked for all of them.

arty dave 06-19-19 04:20 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 20986416)

All BB parts shiny and free of wear. I found chunks of old grease and a petrified wasp but no sock.

Amateurs! I hope you've got a nice sock picked out to put in there

Ballenxj 06-19-19 05:08 PM


Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 20986701)
Whats the deal with the 23" frames? Just fewer of them around?

There seem to be fewer of them for sale. The 23" frame is, as I read, the adult size for us taller people, and it seems most people are keeping theirs. :(

BigChief 06-19-19 05:11 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 20986665)
Question for the learned: when I pulled the shifter rod, it was covered in black gunk. Poked a plastic stir stick down there and pulled out some really think muck. The hub has been shifting fine and ticking along but... would it be good to fill the hub with some kerosene or other such fluids and drain the swamp in there before the wheel goes back into action?

Fresh oil used afterwards of course!

Sure, you can flush it out. Anything that dissolves grease would be fine. Then add some oil. The only thing about that is it takes so long to drain that you spend weeks cleaning off your rim. I think, in the long run, it's less work to disassemble and clean the hub. That also allows you to pack the wheel bearings with a longer lasting marine grease. Not only that, its fun. It's not a difficult or frustrating job like stuck cotters.

Ballenxj 06-19-19 05:19 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20986766)
It's not a difficult or frustrating job like stuck cotters.

It's not? :eek:

3speedslow 06-19-19 05:47 PM

@BigChief

Thanks for the info! I have time to clean it out. I have to save up for the spoke party now! Oh well, at least I will have SS with washers. The rim on it now will not be the one I am using so it can be as messy as it wants to.

I’m not that cool for a sock stunt.

usarnie1 06-19-19 06:13 PM

More Bling added to my Hercules
 
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fa8e370ac1.png
Today, I changed my Miller headlight for a 1910 McKeelite that I modified with 24 LEDs. Additionally, I added the Hercules Royal Prince stickers that I purchased from RedBubble.com. The big items I added are the Tourbon tan pannier bags and tan triangle bag.

I applied the rubbing compound to the bike. It did improve the looks. However, I was not able to restore the paint to its' original lusture.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e10807386c.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f995e96ee4.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...61ec8621d4.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1d0b7801f5.jpg

usarnie1 06-19-19 06:21 PM

More Bling added to my Hercules
 
I forgot to mention that I ordered the Schwalbe creme colored tires. Additionally, I plan to change the handlebars for simular ones that have a 2"to 3" further reach out toward me.

BigChief 06-19-19 08:41 PM


Originally Posted by usarnie1 (Post 20986868)
I forgot to mention that I ordered the Schwalbe creme colored tires. Additionally, I plan to change the handlebars for simular ones that have a 2"to 3" further reach out toward me.

Looking good! Compounding works better on some finishes than others. Depends on how deep the oxidation goes. Here's a mudguard that needed extensive work. Compound, polish and wax worked very well on this paint as you can see on the un-repaired area. Clear coat can also be used to add gloss.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a14da82865.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5bf7f60203.jpg

reno rs 06-19-19 08:42 PM


Originally Posted by usarnie1 (Post 20982766)
Hello fellow 3 speeders. Last week I found and purchased a 1953 Hercules Royal Prince, that was only 12 miles away from my home. This is my number 3 of 1953 Hercules that I own. Basically, the bike had good bones, so I went all out on its' rejuvenation. Shown below are the before and after photos of the bike.

Many of the front fork bearings were missing, the front tire and tube had a blow out, the front axel bearing races were pitted, the saddle was made in Taiwon, the hand grips were USA made, The chain had 2 links that were frozen, the rear clamp for the chain guard was missing, one of the pedals dust caps was missing, the kick stand was missing and the complete front brake was missing. Since these early 1950s Hercules are so rare, I had to have it!

I put on new Schwalbe tires/tubes, used original Hercules tan saddle, new matching tan hand grips, used Brooks tan leather tool bag, complete early Hercules front brakes, nice used front axel and bearing races, period correct Midland repainted carrying rack, Miller generator light kit with a stem mounted bracket, NOS Hercules pedals, Raleigh logo kick stand, new indicator chain and its' anchor and all new cables. Coming soon will be reproduction Hercules chainguard sticker, tan pannier bags and matching triangle bag to mount in-between the V portion of the frame.

After2

Awesome. I'd love to add a 50s 3 speed to the stable.

thumpism 06-19-19 09:32 PM


Originally Posted by Ballenxj (Post 20986250)
I hope somebody here picks this up! Looks like a 23" frame as well. :thumb:

Ad's gone now, but a rod brake Raleigh was probably a 28" wheel Tourist and those men's frames were 22" or 24".

BigChief 06-20-19 03:49 AM


Originally Posted by reno rs (Post 20987102)
Awesome. I'd love to add a 50s 3 speed to the stable.

You should! They are fun and actually practical utility bikes. As an old time 3 speeder my advise would be to hold out for the frame size that suits you best. The common light roadsters come in either 21" or 23". If you're over 5'10" or so, you'll want the more rare 23".

gster 06-20-19 04:41 AM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 20986416)
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0da3fd931.jpeg

Little oil, drill, punch and repeat.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a11290055.jpeg

All nice and clean!
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b3ac749a2.jpeg

Still ready to do the job after 40 years!
Success! Fighting all the way but the cotter finally came out. All BB parts shiny and free of wear. I found chunks of old grease and a petrified wasp but no sock. The Teflon spray was helping it but new grease is what it needs.

The drill bit stayed mostly in the pin but towards the bottom drifted out into the crank. I can see a little divot out of the wall. Both openings are still round. I will be getting new pins, most likely from Mark.

I'm sorry that you didn't find a sock.
I was hoping another one would show up so I'd have a matching pair.

BigChief 06-20-19 05:24 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20987364)
I'm sorry that you didn't find a sock.
I was hoping another one would show up so I'd have a matching pair.

Now we know the Raleigh part number for a Twenty BB spindle is 21GC. Really odd that cotter snapped off the way it did. They are supposed to be a softer alloy. I see there's not much dome on the top. I wonder if this was the original 'R" cap cotter or an aftermarket. But even then, there was a lot of poorly thought out cost cutting going on at Raleigh in the 70s. Maybe the cotters from new weren't good quality.

gster 06-20-19 05:34 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20987406)
Now we know the Raleigh part number for a Twenty BB spindle is 21GC. Really odd that cotter snapped off the way it did. They are supposed to be a softer alloy. I see there's not much dome on the top. I wonder if this was the original 'R" cap cotter or an aftermarket. But even then, there was a lot of poorly thought out cost cutting going on at Raleigh in the 70s. Maybe the cotters from new weren't good quality.

They are a bit of a mystery.
The cotters on the '30 Hercules came out as if they'd been installed the week before .

Johno59 06-20-19 07:00 AM

Stuck pin removal of the last rrsort
 

Originally Posted by gster (Post 20987364)
I'm sorry that you didn't find a sock.
I was hoping another one would show up so I'd have a matching pair.

Slacken off the nut a few turns, offer up the frame horizontal and place in the vice. Place one jaw of the vice against the crank opposite the stuck pin, place a socket over the pin top so it clears the pin and presses on the crank body. Place the other jaw directly on the slackened cotter pin nut opposite and press the pin out.

BigChief 06-20-19 07:20 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20987420)
They are a bit of a mystery.
The cotters on the '30 Hercules came out as if they'd been installed the week before .

I've given some thought to this issue, but I still have more questions than answers. Even in this case, you can see from the picture that unlike aluminum stems and seat posts in steel frames, corrosion wasn't the cause. Even in the LBS where I worked, mechanics in the day would just hammer cotters in. For a long time, I guessed stuck cotters were just the result of being hammered in too hard. But now I wondering if perhaps the alloy they are made from is involved somehow. I've removed many cotters over the years. Probably not enough to be of any real statistical value, but enough to get an impression. I too have noticed that cotters from bikes from the 50s seem to pop out without much fuss and the only time I've had to resort to plan B was on later models. I have also noticed that the alloy of the old cotters...and Bike Smith cotters as well... looks different than more modern cotters. There's no finish on them. They're not very hard and are highly rust resistant. Just a thought.

3speedslow 06-20-19 08:20 AM

My feeble take: torquing on the crankside makes those a little more harder to drive out. Mine are of the nonR-nut variety. They were also driven in quite deep. The NDS cotter slide right out so I think it had something to do with the placement or torque on the pin. BTW, the tool used was the old Park cotter one and both sides had 2 days of soaking before the operation.

I so wanted to find a sock!

The part number on the crank spindle facing up was just PURE luck!

riverdrifter 06-20-19 08:28 AM


Originally Posted by usarnie1 (Post 20986856)
Today, I changed my Miller headlight for a 1910 McKeelite that I modified with 24 LEDs. Additionally, I added the Hercules Royal Prince stickers that I purchased from RedBubble.com. The big items I added are the Tourbon tan pannier bags and tan triangle bag.

I applied the rubbing compound to the bike. It did improve the looks. However, I was not able to restore the paint to its' original lusture.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e10807386c.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f995e96ee4.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...61ec8621d4.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1d0b7801f5.jpg



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...92f020bb98.png

Reproduction sticker purchased from RedBuble.com

Fantastic bike!

Ged117 06-20-19 08:33 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20987563)
I've given some thought to this issue, but I still have more questions than answers. Even in this case, you can see from the picture that unlike aluminum stems and seat posts in steel frames, corrosion wasn't the cause. Even in the LBS where I worked, mechanics in the day would just hammer cotters in. For a long time, I guessed stuck cotters were just the result of being hammered in too hard. But now I wondering if perhaps the alloy they are made from is involved somehow. I've removed many cotters over the years. Probably not enough to be of any real statistical value, but enough to get an impression. I too have noticed that cotters from bikes from the 50s seem to pop out without much fuss and the only time I've had to resort to plan B was on later models. I have also noticed that the alloy of the old cotters...and Bike Smith cotters as well... looks different than more modern cotters. There's no finish on them. They're not very hard and are highly rust resistant. Just a thought.

The differences between the cotters from my '50 Superbe and those from the '79 Sports parts bike were immediately evident. The '50 cotters were clearly a quality product and came out as gster said, as if they had been installed a week before, when it in fact it had been nearly 70 years. The '79 cotters were crude by comparison - I would not reuse them. I would reuse the '50 ones though.

RobbieAG 06-20-19 09:55 AM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 20985092)
My Raleigh Twenty and I are not having a good day.

I tried to service the bottom bracket on my Twenty a couple months ago and things did not go well either. I got the left side off, but wasn't able to on the right side. I sprayed it with PB Blaster and let it sit overnight (more than once), tried the vise/socket method, but no good. I gave up as I was afraid I'd damage the bike. For now I'll stick with a few drops of gear oil down the seat tube. I need to try the cut pipe trick and if that doesn't work, I'll drill it out to service the bottom bracket properly (next winter). I was able to get cotters from Harris Cyclery as I damaged the threads on the one I did get out and also wanted spares for my other 3 speeds.

3speedslow 06-20-19 10:45 AM

@RobbieAG

Here is what I found out after opening up the BB. The opening from the seat tube is tiny! If you are going to put oil down there to help keep it lubed, err on the side of plenty. I used a spray can of Teflon and 3 in 1 oil in healthy doses. Because there are no seals between the spindle and cups you might be able to sneak enough to the ball bearings through that route.

i am happy to have gotten the cotter out regardless. My LBS has been around over 40 yrs. they still have SA parts in their drawers and bins. I will see if the pins I come up with look decent or go talk to BikeSmith.

dweenk 06-20-19 12:35 PM

Some where on this forum there are instructions for making a cotter press from a Harbor Freight chain breaker. I made one a few years ago and have been successful with all of the extractions except one where the crank profile was so slim that there was not enough space to align with the pin.


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