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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

markk900 01-11-23 12:26 PM

Those Kinlins look great!

I was lucky and snagged a set of 32/40 CR18s in ISO 590 when they were still available; I have converted a couple of bikes to 700C using Alex DM18 rims (36h) in silver which I like quite a bit. Not sure if a Trek converted to IGH counts as an English 3-speed but here it is, with the Alex rims (and yes I have subsequently shortened the trigger cable housing a bit!).


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...24d7474639.jpg

1989Pre 01-11-23 03:18 PM

[QUOTE=oldspokes;22765145 While its just personal preference, gumwall tires on fender bike just never looked right to me. A lot that is probably because they're what came on
the department store 26" road bikes of that era.[/QUOTE]


You're probably right about the lighting systems. They definitely cost extra.
I was looking at a 1951 Dunlop catalogue, and it seemed the racing tyres were tubular gumwall or clincher blackwall, and the "utility" bikes had blackwall tires.

A lot of people over at Classic Lightweights go with the Super Champion rim (that's what I have on my Barnard), but, like the Asp, the 32H Super Champ can be a chore to locate.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f0db5c8e75.jpg

Ged117 01-11-23 03:45 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 22765490)
Those Kinlins look great!

I was lucky and snagged a set of 32/40 CR18s in ISO 590 when they were still available; I have converted a couple of bikes to 700C using Alex DM18 rims (36h) in silver which I like quite a bit. Not sure if a Trek converted to IGH counts as an English 3-speed but here it is, with the Alex rims (and yes I have subsequently shortened the trigger cable housing a bit!).


I really like that Trek. For a while, I ran a four-speed FW hub on my '70s Peugeot before finding my Sun frame via a member here.


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22765677)
You're probably right about the lighting systems. They definitely cost extra.
I was looking at a 1951 Dunlop catalogue, and it seemed the racing tyres were tubular gumwall or clincher blackwall, and the "utility" bikes had blackwall tires.

A lot of people over at Classic Lightweights go with the Super Champion rim (that's what I have on my Barnard), but, like the Asp, the 32H Super Champ can be a chore to locate.

I did find a seller for a Super Champion / Model 58 40h rim out west, but at $160 including shipping that was a no go. Most of the Super Champions or Constrictor Conloy / Asp or Dunlop period rims are found either across the pond (so shipping to Canada would be eye-watering) or for really high cost plus shipping from U.S. based sellers. I'm happy to spend my hobby dollars on nice condition hubs of the era, but if there is a nice looking modern alloy equivalent for rims, I'm OK with foregoing period correctness. Ebay prices for quality vintage parts are leaving orbit at this point.

1989Pre 01-11-23 04:16 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 22765717)
I did find a seller for a Super Champion / Model 58 40h rim

The modele 58 is what I'm using. That's way too much money. I've seen them from 50-60 U.S.

I just built up a set of beautiful Asps on Harden High flange 40-32H, but then learnt that the rear was fixed-gear only!
So now, they are wall art.

1989Pre 01-11-23 04:19 PM

Lake Pepin Ride Gearing
 
Has anyone done the Lake Pepin 3-Speed ride in Minnesota? I was just wondering about the necessary gearing. Is a standard S/A. AW hub low enough?

Macguyver909 01-11-23 05:20 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 22765717)
I really like that Trek. For a while, I ran a four-speed FW hub on my '70s Peugeot before finding my Sun frame via a member here.



I did find a seller for a Super Champion / Model 58 40h rim out west, but at $160 including shipping that was a no go. Most of the Super Champions or Constrictor Conloy / Asp or Dunlop period rims are found either across the pond (so shipping to Canada would be eye-watering) or for really high cost plus shipping from U.S. based sellers. I'm happy to spend my hobby dollars on nice condition hubs of the era, but if there is a nice looking modern alloy equivalent for rims, I'm OK with foregoing period correctness. Ebay prices for quality vintage parts are leaving orbit at this point.


Just another avenue to explore. Velocity does make some modern rims in 32 and 40 hole drillings. They are expensive, and I don't know what shipping would be to the north. I also think if you asked real nice they may custom drill just about any rim they make for you. They list the Atlas rim in 650b with 40 holes. I had a set of wheels made up with an AW and Dynohub, hubs and the Atlas rims in the 650b size for my sports. I fully expect the wheels to be heirloom quality. I know I will never wear them out or break them in this lifetime.

Macguyver909 01-11-23 05:27 PM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22765752)
Has anyone done the Lake Pepin 3-Speed ride in Minnesota? I was just wondering about the necessary gearing. Is a standard S/A. AW hub low enough?

I rode this event last year and have geared my bike like Sheldon Brown suggests. Top gear is what I can comfortably spin on the flats. then you get what you get for climbing.
I'm set up at 48/22 and I know one other guy on the tour is geared the same. The ride is not too bad for hills, save for one. I just pedal slower on the hills and don't expect to be able to spin up the big ones. My gear inches calculate out to 42.5/56.7/75.6 with 42mm tires on 650b rims.

SkinGriz 01-11-23 05:29 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 22765490)
Those Kinlins look great!

I was lucky and snagged a set of 32/40 CR18s in ISO 590 when they were still available; I have converted a couple of bikes to 700C using Alex DM18 rims (36h) in silver which I like quite a bit. Not sure if a Trek converted to IGH counts as an English 3-speed but here it is, with the Alex rims (and yes I have subsequently shortened the trigger cable housing a bit!).


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...24d7474639.jpg

Looks like a fun bike to ride.
I like it.

Ged117 01-11-23 07:16 PM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22765749)
The modele 58 is what I'm using. That's way too much money. I've seen them from 50-60 U.S.

I just built up a set of beautiful Asps on Harden High flange 40-32H, but then learnt that the rear was fixed-gear only!
So now, they are wall art.

They're around, its true, but shipping costs to my neck of the woods can be a buzzkill. If US$50 per rim, then its about CAD$67, plus about US$50-$70 or more for shipping. It gets spendy real fast. Anything in British pounds is even worse, despite the pound's nose dive, our dollar is trading a bit low. Its funny you mention Harden hubs and the Asp rims - I once thought about building a wheelset around Harden hubs for a fixed gear build of a 1950ish Armstrong Consort 531 frame - I might be interested in that wheelset some day :) - I recently found out that my long lost Armstrong frame might be showing up after all.


Originally Posted by Macguyver909 (Post 22765821)
Just another avenue to explore. Velocity does make some modern rims in 32 and 40 hole drillings. They are expensive, and I don't know what shipping would be to the north. I also think if you asked real nice they may custom drill just about any rim they make for you. They list the Atlas rim in 650b with 40 holes. I had a set of wheels made up with an AW and Dynohub, hubs and the Atlas rims in the 650b size for my sports. I fully expect the wheels to be heirloom quality. I know I will never wear them out or break them in this lifetime.

About four years ago I built a wheelset using Velocity Dyad rims that I got for a very low price, they're great rims! Deep V though, so not C&V pleasers. I think if I went 650b, I'd go for the Atlas or the VO Voyager rims, they're both very nice looking rims and as you say, good in wheels for the long haul.

Sedgemop 01-11-23 07:40 PM

If everything checks out, I'm picking this up over the weekend. Looks to be a pretty clean example. Be glad to be a member of the three speed club again. Got a new downtown job and this will be perfect for commuting. More photos will come when I get a different saddle.

https://images.craigslist.org/00W0W_...u_1200x900.jpghttps://images.craigslist.org/00808_...u_1200x900.jpghttps://images.craigslist.org/00X0X_...u_1200x900.jpg

SkinGriz 01-11-23 08:07 PM

How much do these weigh?

What could they weigh with newer bars, crank arms, 559 alloy wheels, etc?

I understand low weight isnít the point, but sometimes understanding the possibilities helps me understand the median.

Thank you.

pastorbobnlnh 01-12-23 07:30 AM

I've never participated in this thread since joining BF-C&V back in 2005, primarily because I lived in the NH mountains for 20 years, and I needed more than a three-speed to manage my hills.

Retirement near the end of 2021 brought about a relocation to a flat coastal island. Finally, IGH would make sense! I built a five-speed around a modern Sturmey Archer hub. However, the gear steps of about 20-25%, while fine for errands, were not ideal for fast exercise riding.

Last September, @nlerner offered a 27" wheel laced to a 1951 SA-AM for sale on the Classified page. I snapped it up, and began building this:
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds

A 1975 Schwinn Voyageur II (made by Panasonic). It's a mismatch of parts; front wheel is a 48 spoke Phil Wood hub, tandem wheel. The crankset and BB are from a 1950s ladies Schwinn Superior, MAFAC Racer brakes, DiaCompe levers, and a Campagnolo Record headset.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds


I made the leather bar covers, hoods, and saddle bag in response to a thread about alligator and crocodile bar wrap. My leather is cow stamped to look like 'gator.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds

When I finished adjusting the shifting yesterday afternoon, I took it for a couple of quick laps around the neighborhood. This is going to be a fun ride!

tcs 01-12-23 09:39 AM


Originally Posted by Macguyver909 (Post 22765828)
The ride is not too bad for hills, save for one.

One hill. Not a range of mountains. Not a 23km col. One hill.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f1a5b3ee37.gif

markk900 01-12-23 10:20 AM

pastorbobnlnh What a stunner!

1989Pre 01-12-23 11:18 AM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 22765939)
I once thought about building a wheelset around Harden hubs for a fixed gear build of a 1950ish Armstrong Consort 531 frame

I am particular to early Armstrongs, like the Consort, Moth, Peerless and Continental models. I've never ridden a fixed-gear bike in my life.., and without a velodrome near-by, I don't think I ever will. The wheels will be here, though.

rudypyatt 01-12-23 05:01 PM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 22766238)
I've never participated in this thread since joining BF-C&V back in 2005, primarily because I lived in the NH mountains for 20 years, and I needed more than a three-speed to manage my hills.

Retirement near the end of 2021 brought about a relocation to a flat coastal island. Finally, IGH would make sense! I built a five-speed around a modern Sturmey Archer hub. However, the gear steps of about 20-25%, while fine for errands, were not ideal for fast exercise riding.

Last September, @nlerner offered a 27" wheel laced to a 1951 SA-AM for sale on the Classified page. I snapped it up, and began building this:
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds

A 1975 Schwinn Voyageur II (made by Panasonic). It's a mismatch of parts; front wheel is a 48 spoke Phil Wood hub, tandem wheel. The crankset and BB are from a 1950s ladies Schwinn Superior, MAFAC Racer brakes, DiaCompe levers, and a Campagnolo Record headset.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds


I made the leather bar covers, hoods, and saddle bag in response to a thread about alligator and crocodile bar wrap. My leather is cow stamped to look like 'gator.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds

When I finished adjusting the shifting yesterday afternoon, I took it for a couple of quick laps around the neighborhood. This is going to be a fun ride!

I really like this setup. I wish SA would bring out a modern version of the AM hub. Conceptually, it seems that it would be straightforward to tweak the SRF3 to give closer ratios. It seems the closest thing theyíve had to a medium ratio three speed in modern times is the S3X fixed hub; I know you can thread a freewheel onto it. I might have to try that; seems it would work well for a flat crit.

Ged117 01-12-23 06:17 PM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 22766238)
I've never participated in this thread since joining BF-C&V back in 2005, primarily because I lived in the NH mountains for 20 years, and I needed more than a three-speed to manage my hills.

Retirement near the end of 2021 brought about a relocation to a flat coastal island. Finally, IGH would make sense! I built a five-speed around a modern Sturmey Archer hub. However, the gear steps of about 20-25%, while fine for errands, were not ideal for fast exercise riding.

Last September, @nlerner offered a 27" wheel laced to a 1951 SA-AM for sale on the Classified page. I snapped it up, and began building this:


A 1975 Schwinn Voyageur II (made by Panasonic). It's a mismatch of parts; front wheel is a 48 spoke Phil Wood hub, tandem wheel. The crankset and BB are from a 1950s ladies Schwinn Superior, MAFAC Racer brakes, DiaCompe levers, and a Campagnolo Record headset.

I made the leather bar covers, hoods, and saddle bag in response to a thread about alligator and crocodile bar wrap. My leather is cow stamped to look like 'gator.

When I finished adjusting the shifting yesterday afternoon, I took it for a couple of quick laps around the neighborhood. This is going to be a fun ride!

An absolute head turner! This is a nice build of a Voyageur into a classic hub gear touring road bike. Curious to hear your impressions of the AM - a medium ratio three speed - kind of like my S5 when the left side indicator is tight (2,3,4) versus the wide ratio (1,3,5) when it is loose.


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22766449)
I am particular to early Armstrongs, like the Consort, Moth, Peerless and Continental models. I've never ridden a fixed-gear bike in my life.., and without a velodrome near-by, I don't think I ever will. The wheels will be here, though.

Here's the frame I am hoping to receive, a 1950ish Armstrong Consort. Fixed gear can be incredibly fun - first time for me was my grandparents' place - they had an old CCM (Canadian Cycle and Motor corporation) fixed gear roadster. I built up my first fixed road bike two years ago and got hooked. If you ever get the chance, give it a try, it can be addictive. Thanks for the offer - if this frame comes, I may knock at your door.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...edca889d_b.jpgs-l1600

tcs 01-12-23 09:19 PM


Originally Posted by rudypyatt (Post 22766891)
I wish SA would bring out a modern version of the AM hub. Conceptually, it seems that it would be straightforward to tweak the SRF3 to give closer ratios.

The Sachs Spectro 7 had 17~18% steps and that's about as small as you can go with single-stage non-compound gears. The AM was a single-stage compound planetary.

Fun fact: Inside the Sturmey XRF8 is a narrow range (~13% steps) six-speed.

1989Pre 01-13-23 06:38 AM


Originally Posted by SkinGriz (Post 22765989)
How much do these weigh?

What could they weigh with newer bars, crank arms, 559 alloy wheels, etc?

I understand low weight isnít the point, but sometimes understanding the possibilities helps me understand the median.

Thank you.

Usually about forty pounds, I think. Yeah, you can lighten it up and run it as a path racer if you want...

clubman 01-13-23 07:27 AM

@SkinGriz, manage your expections. A 'weight weenie' Sports is in the mid/low 30's if you're lucky. Part of the charm is it's rolling mass, going downhill in the rain, wondering when you last dialed in your brakes.:D

rudypyatt 01-13-23 11:15 AM


Originally Posted by tcs (Post 22767145)
The Sachs Spectro 7 had 17~18% steps and that's about as small as you can go with single-stage non-compound gears. The AM was a single-stage compound planetary.

Fun fact: Inside the Sturmey XRF8 is a narrow range (~13% steps) six-speed.

Thereís that hub again: The XRF8. I havenít yet ridden anywhere that 46/18 on an SRF3 wonít take me, but the XRF8 really intrigues me.

anotherbike 01-16-23 12:17 AM

Over the past few years I've gotten back into finding and fixing up old bikes a bit more frequently than I had in the past. Being semi-retired now has given me the time to do so.
One of my favorites has always been three speed bikes in general with a major preference toward English made bikes since that's what I mostly rode when I was younger.

I've run across several lately that were 'Sports' type bikes that were single speed coaster brake. So far I've had a Robin Hood, a Dunelt, a Raleigh LTD, two ladies models, one badged Norman, the other a Philips, all but the Raleigh looked to be early 60's models, the Raleigh LTD I believe was from the 70's.
I've seen others lately, but left the rougher examples behind due to either their condition or the lack of storage space here.

Where these bikes factory equipped as coaster brake single speeds? None had any sign of ever having any three speed hardware attached and they all had Endrick style Dunlop rims. I see the Raleigh LTD had a CB option but did the older models also offer it?

oldlugs 01-16-23 02:52 AM

Had a Hercules many years ago that came new with 26x1 3/8" wheels and a Perry coaster brake.
It was bare bones, no brake levers, no shifter, just two wheels, a frame and a seat.
It was bought in or around 1971 or so.

markk900 01-16-23 07:40 AM

anotherbike : much older models (40s and 50s) were often coaster brake with optional 3 speed, so not surprised you could find a range of coaster brake bikes. I have one bike with a Perry B100 coaster - itís a crappy brake even with a new brake linerÖ..What happened to the coaster bikes of my youth that you could lay huge skid marks? 😎

52telecaster 01-16-23 09:28 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 22767348)
@SkinGriz, manage your expections. A 'weight weenie' Sports is in the mid/low 30's if you're lucky. Part of the charm is it's rolling mass, going downhill in the rain, wondering when you last dialed in your brakes.:D

Was riding my supercourse equipped with an aw in Portland last year. The brakes were just barely adequate on some steep hills with aluminum rims and weinman center pulls. Steel rims in the rain would have been a true adventure.

Salubrious 01-16-23 11:08 AM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22765752)
Has anyone done the Lake Pepin 3-Speed ride in Minnesota? I was just wondering about the necessary gearing. Is a standard S/A. AW hub low enough?


Originally Posted by tcs (Post 22766342)
One hill. Not a range of mountains. Not a 23km col. One hill.

The Bay City Hill is 2 1/2 miles long. With a 46/22 usually you do fine as long as the bike isn't fully loaded. If you go on the Tour you can put your gear in the '3-speed Lorry' and pick it up in Wabasha at the end of the day and Red Wing the next day.

If you go 'off route' such as I do by taking the rustic road just outside of Maiden Rock, you'll encounter more hills. But totally worth in IMO.

People come from all over the US to participate in this event. Jon the Gentleman Cyclist is already taking entrance fees. The even is the weekend of May 20th this year to avoid Mother's Day.

1989Pre 01-16-23 11:41 AM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 22770704)
People come from all over the US to participate in this event. Jon the Gentleman Cyclist is already taking entrance fees. The even is the weekend of May 20th this year to avoid Mother's Day.

Thanks. That gives me optimism. I figure I'll milk the drive over, with a stay near Syracuse and one night near Indianapolis. No need to rush it, I figure. I admire John's enthusiasm for the whole ambiance of British leisure cycling in the Golden Age.
I figure I'll pop a larger sprocket on there and see what happens. I won't have too much in my satchel. I'm looking forward to this.

Salubrious 01-16-23 04:18 PM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22770752)
Thanks. That gives me optimism. I figure I'll milk the drive over, with a stay near Syracuse and one night near Indianapolis. No need to rush it, I figure. I admire John's enthusiasm for the whole ambiance of British leisure cycling in the Golden Age.
I figure I'll pop a larger sprocket on there and see what happens. I won't have too much in my satchel. I'm looking forward to this.

Make sure your bike is tuned up properly- lube in the crank, fork bearings and hubs. In particular the SA AW hub should have a slight amount of play; IOW set the bearings ever so slightly loose rather than no slop. This is the instruction given in the manual. Otherwise its a good idea to follow the instruction from the Lake Pepin 3-speed Tour website:

To gain a better perspective, here is a list of things we leave behind: derailleurs, lycra, target heart rates, SPD, SIS, STI, HRM, XTR, etc. There will be no sprinting, spinning, drafting nor will there be any carbon fibre, drillium, eludium or unobtanium. Please note we are not advocating being a retro-grouch or ridicule those with alloy handlebars but instead we are asking you to strip away all you know modern cycling to be and hop aboard your £5 Thrift Store Raleigh and come with. Leave your lycra and Johnny-Rebel competitive spirit at home and instead, bring your sense of adventure. Wear something appropriate for eagle watching or sitting in a cafť and bring an honest-to-goodness rain cape because, of course, it rains in England. Be prepared to make new friends and be swept away by the scenery. Be prepared to stop here and there to take a photo or complain about your hard saddle or make an entry in your Tourbook. Be prepared to keep in mind it's not the destination you'll remember but the journey.
BTW, this is the latest from Jon regarding the Tour:

By now, most of us have noticed the days getting longer (nope), temperatures warming (nope) and bicycle projects coming along nicely (nope). The best we can do at this point is to keep our feet pointed toward the fire and have a nice flammable delicacy in hand. Have your fond memories of the Tour ticking over in your mind and your plans of what to ride and wear for the coming event close to your heart. It won't be long now and so it may be a good idea to clear the workbench in preparation of the 3-speed teardown explosion once feeling returns to your fingers. Of course, the aforementioned bench should be sloped toward the back so the tiny ball bearings may disappear without notice. If your bench is out in the shed, cancel the bench clearing and return to the hearth immediately since the shed will be snowed in.


Other slants and takes:
  • Bag tags will be a special order in black to honour our fallen hero Noel. I'll order a few extra to have on hand.
  • Registration fees remain at $30 per Ploughman or Ploughwoman.
  • May 20 & 21 are the dates. The timing shifts once every 4 years to avoid Mother's Day. You may thank the Gregorian Calendar for this hitch in your giddyup.
  • Registration is always open; Paypal is still easiest, just send it to the address of this email.
Best along the furrow,
Jon Sharratt, Shirt-Tail Organiser
www.3speedtour.com

vintagebicycle 01-17-23 01:53 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 22770442)
anotherbike : much older models (40s and 50s) were often coaster brake with optional 3 speed, so not surprised you could find a range of coaster brake bikes. I have one bike with a Perry B100 coaster - itís a crappy brake even with a new brake linerÖ..What happened to the coaster bikes of my youth that you could lay huge skid marks? 😎

Most of the coaster brake models I've found were small frame bikes. Most later models have been ladies models.

Back in the day, as kids, we were lighter and often riding bikes with smaller wheels, and likely tires weren't as grippy.
When I was 10, I was riding a 26" wheel bike, but I was likely still under 100 lbs. I had two bikes with coaster brakes that I rode, one was a Schwinn middleweight, the other a Rollfast lightweight with a CB. Both were Bendix RB2 equipped bikes.
Back then, laying into the brake let me slide into a stop sideways. 50+ years later all I get out of a coaster brake is a discolored hub shell and grease boiling out the side of the hub. They stop, but will not lock up the wheel. Long stops on a downhill ride heat up the hub to the point where the hub is sizzling at the bottom of even a minor hill.
I made the mistake of trying a roller brake (Shimano Nexus), a few years ago, I put one into a road bike wheel and soon realized they just weren't made to stop a 27" wheel with a 300lb rider. I was burning up brake units, ripping spokes out of rims, breaking spokes, and spinning narrow tires on the rim.

markk900 01-17-23 03:07 PM


Originally Posted by vintagebicycle (Post 22772038)
Most of the coaster brake models I've found were small frame bikes. Most later models have been ladies models.

While I agree that here in North America full size models with coaster brakes (or single speeds bikes in general) were mostly kids bikes. I was referring though to full size Raleigh, Humber etc models that in the 40s and 50s catalogs almost always said "3 speed available as an option"....

Here's one example from 1952:

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a4499f98a7.jpg


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