Bike Forums

Bike Forums (https://www.bikeforums.net/forum.php)
-   Classic & Vintage (https://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php?f=181)
-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

PalmettoUpstate 05-06-15 01:48 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 17781976)
I can't tell from your link. Try shortening it with http://goo.gl to take the special characters out. But if the BSD is listed as 590, then it will fit.

Hmmm... I don't understand why that didn't work.

Here are individual links:

Marathon Plus, 37-590, Black-Reflex, Wire | Schwalbe North America [Marathon Plus as 650 x 35A]

and...

Marathon, 37-590, Black-Reflex, Wire | Schwalbe North America [Marathon as 26 x 1 3/8]

Velocivixen 05-06-15 01:55 PM

Another name for 26 x 1 3/8" is 650A. So I interpret the top one you mentioned at 650A & tire will be 35mm wide.

PalmettoUpstate 05-06-15 02:10 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17782302)
Another name for 26 x 1 3/8" is 650A. So I interpret the top one you mentioned at 650A & tire will be 35mm wide.

I consider myself schooled!

Thanks for the clarification. [and what is 650B?]

Velocivixen 05-06-15 04:38 PM

650b is a different, slightly smaller size. There's a 650c also, which I believe is having a resurgence among Tri Athletes. You can do internet search & will explain. Look up Sheldon Brown - he provides an excellent description. I'm no expert, but I've built some 26 x 1 3/8" wheels lately so I know that much.

noglider 05-06-15 05:12 PM

Right, both of those tires will work. Velocivixen is right about 650A. Now, I could be wrong, but I believe 650C went out of style. Too bad, because it was good for short women. But this has nothing to do with three-speeds.

PalmettoUpstate 05-06-15 06:46 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17782767)
650b is a different, slightly smaller size. There's a 650c also, which I believe is having a resurgence among Tri Athletes. You can do internet search & will explain. Look up Sheldon Brown - he provides an excellent description. I'm no expert, but I've built some 26 x 1 3/8" wheels lately so I know that much.

I admire your technical expertise and the fact that you don't "have a desk"; can you tell me which tools you have decided upon to do wheel building?

Velocivixen 05-06-15 06:56 PM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 17783051)
I admire your technical expertise and the fact that you don't "have a desk"; can you tell me which tools you have decided upon to do wheel building?

Tools? I scoured CL for about a year. I bought a New in box Park Tool TS 2.2 Professional Truing stand, New Tensionometer from LBS, used but great quality Wag 4 Park Dishing tool.

For the holidays I received a Bicycle Research Nipple Driver & some more sizes of spoke wrenches (Park & other brands). A friend gave me a home made tool of a bent spoke at one end & other end is used to hold nipple to thread it onto spoke when the spoke doesn't quite reach the hole.

I took a 16 hour (over 3 days) wheel building class about 2 weeks ago. I asked for this for my birthday. The owner/instructor of Sugar Wheel Works uses the Schwinn technique for building wheels, where you put all the spokes in at once and go from there. I walked away from the class with 2 fantastic disc brake & dynamo wheels for my husband's birthday gift.

PalmettoUpstate 05-06-15 07:09 PM

All well and good. But you've yet to ask me about "having a desk"...

SirMike1983 05-06-15 07:31 PM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 17782350)
I consider myself schooled!

Thanks for the clarification. [and what is 650B?]


Usually 26 x 1-3/8 means 650A. However, Schwinn had a size sometimes called

"26 x 1-3/8"

and sometimes also called

"26 x 1-3/8 x 1-1/4"

These Schwinn tires are actually a slightly different size than 650A and meant for a Schwinn S5 or S6 rim, not a Raleigh Sports/Superbe rim. However, these appear less commonly than the 650A tires. Be warned that you will see that Schwinn size sometimes called 26 x 1-3/8 as well, even though it's a different tire.

Tire Sizing Systems

clasher 05-06-15 07:58 PM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 17781830)
Nice!

Was this a 3-speed Sprite originally? My guess that not; as they are rare compared to the 5 & 10 speeds.

Naw, it was a derailleur model, but the little heart-shaped braze-on the downtube was the perfect place to put the fulcrum clip and the braze-ons for the derailleur cable route the shifter cable much cleaner than clamping full-length housing. I built the wheels with 700c rims, the narrow fenders kind of limit the tires to 32mm but it makes for zippy city cruiser. The woman I sold it to is apparently pretty happy with it. I have a grand prix frame I have been building wheels for but I keep passing the wheels along to other projects. Soon I will get my hands on some more 288mm spokes and build it up finally, it'll be a drop-bar three speed. I have a front dynohub built up into a rim already and some old lights that I need to clean up. I scored another dynohub so maybe by the time the autumn rolls around I will find another frame to build up.

desconhecido 05-06-15 08:16 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 17782836)
Right, both of those tires will work. Velocivixen is right about 650A. Now, I could be wrong, but I believe 650C went out of style. Too bad, because it was good for short women. But this has nothing to do with three-speeds.

I just checked and Terry is still offering a bike with 650C wheels specially for small riders. Actually, it looks like the 650C wheels go on bikes from about 48 cm to about 54 cm. Smaller bikes get 700C rear and some sort of 24" front. Larger get 700C front and rear. Appear to be very nice bikes with Ultegra components. Frames are butted steel made by Waterford in Wisconsin.

I've only seen a couple of the Terry bikes over the years, probably at my first and last RAGBRAI back in 2010. You'll see everything at RAGBRAI including penny-farthings, unicycles, and single speed Schwinns with coaster brakes. Best I can recall, they are nice bikes and go for a market that almost all other makers ignore.

adventurepdx 05-07-15 10:32 AM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 17782350)
I consider myself schooled! Thanks for the clarification. [and what is 650B?]

Ooh, I'm sure there's a bunch of people elsewhere on the internet that will school you so much on 650B, you'll practically have a PhD! ;)

As for sorting out "26 inch" tire sizing, of course Sheldon Brown has something to say about it:
26 Inch Bicycle Tires

And here's a great diagram from Wikipedia: File:Tyre and Rim Technical data 02-en.png - Wikimedia Commons

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...data_02-en.png

PalmettoUpstate 05-07-15 12:22 PM


Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 17784739)
Ooh, I'm sure there's a bunch of people elsewhere on the internet that will school you so much on 650B, you'll practically have a PhD! ;)

As for sorting out "26 inch" tire sizing, of course Sheldon Brown has something to say about it:
26 Inch Bicycle Tires

Yeah I had seen that Sheldon page before but I thought I'd tease out some info on the 650C. In my own wrenching I have only come across the 597's [schwinn], 590's Raleigh etc., and 559's MTB. It's kinda interesting that you have almost 10 CM difference in the diameters of these "26 inch" wheels; that's a lot!

FWIW, 26 inches is 660 MM and assuming an average sidewall height of 30 MM above the rim's edge for lightweight bicycles it would put the Schwinn S6 at almost exactly 26".

So, looking at the Wickedpedia chart, is one to assume that, in order to realize an OD of 26" the sidewalls on the 650C tires, with their 571 ETRTO, are taller than those on the 597, 590 and 584 ETRTO?

Also, since the 590's are a 650B, it appears that the chart Schwalbe has showing the Marathon Plus as a "650" is incorrect as that should indicate a 597 ETRTO if that Wickedpedia chart is correct.

PalmettoUpstate 05-07-15 12:30 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 17783175)

These Schwinn tires are actually a slightly different size than 650A and meant for a Schwinn S5 or S6 rim, not a Raleigh Sports/Superbe rim. However, these appear less commonly than the 650A tires. Be warned that you will see that Schwinn size sometimes called 26 x 1-3/8 as well, even though it's a different tire.

Tire Sizing Systems

Yeah I discovered that rather profound "nuance" early on - LOL. I think it was back when I was a teen and worked like hell to get a 590 on a 597 [schwinn] rim.

Didn't happen and I was pissed. The guy at Western Auto had unknowingly sold me a tire for the British rim size. Or, mighta been my bad by just grabbing the first one I saw that was marked 26 x 1 3/8.

ETRTO? I don't need no stinkin' ETRTO!

adventurepdx 05-07-15 12:38 PM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 17785114)
So, looking at the Wikipedia chart, is one to assume that, in order to realize an OD of 26" the sidewalls on the 650C tires, with their 571 ETRTO, are taller than those on the 597, 590 and 584 ETRTO?

Yep. The confusion regarding 571/650C is that the original idea (at least in Schwinn's usage) was a new wheel/tire size for their "middleweight" cruisers". This 571/650C was called 26" x 1 3/4" by Schwinn. And this tire kept the near 26" outer diameter of the tire. Later on (1980s?) the 571 became a "tri" size, but with much skinnier tires, so they don't come near the 26" OD as originally intended.


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 17785114)
Also, since the 590's are a 650B, it appears that the chart Schwalbe has showing the Marathon Plus as a "650" is incorrect as that should indicate a 597 ETRTO if that Wikipedia chart is correct.

Actually, 590 is 650A. 584 is 650B.

Marathon Plus, 42-590, Black-Reflex, Wire | Schwalbe North America
And looking at the Schwalbe page about the Marathon Plus (assuming that I'm looking at the same page as you), their sizing nomenclature is correct, as they call it either 42-590 (tire width first, wheel size last), or 650X40A. When they list the tire size this way, the letter comes after the width. Same with other sizes. If you had a 35 mm wide Marathon Plus in 700C, it would say 700x35C on the sidewall.

And to note: that Marathon Plus may be the widest tire size for 590/650A/26" x 1 3/8", at least as wide as the Panaracer Col de la Vies!

adventurepdx 05-07-15 12:40 PM

And while I'm thinking about it, who is going to Lake Pepin this year? I definitely am!

noglider 05-07-15 01:59 PM

One problem with tire sizes as they are often expressed, and as at least one of the above-cited articles says, is that they were sized by outer diameter of the tire. And only approximately. So for example, you have the 559 rim, the kind we see on mountain bikes. With a fat tire, the OD might approach 26". But with a skinny tire, it will be much less, and if you used a ruler on the rim, it would be around 24". It was a bad way to number the sizes.

If I recall correctly, ETRTO (European Tire and Rim Technical Organization) was subsumed by ISO (International Standards Organization). Yet we still refer to sizes as ETRTO sizes when we use the actual measurements in millimeters.

SirMike1983 05-07-15 02:25 PM

I like that diagram. There's always the dreaded 599mm 26 inch size as well, seen usually on US-made lightweights and roadsters from the 1940s and earlier. They are rather uncommon compared to the others, but no one makes tires specifically for this size anymore. On some 599 rims you can slip a 597/Schwinn tire on and be OK. Sometimes the 597 won't go on though, depending on the rim's profile. These are usually abbreviated 26 x 1.375. The Sheldon site cites them, but does not mention that if you go down the path of 1.375/ISO599, you may not be able to actually get ANY tire for it.


Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 17784739)
Ooh, I'm sure there's a bunch of people elsewhere on the internet that will school you so much on 650B, you'll practically have a PhD! ;)

As for sorting out "26 inch" tire sizing, of course Sheldon Brown has something to say about it:
26 Inch Bicycle Tires

And here's a great diagram from Wikipedia: File:Tyre and Rim Technical data 02-en.png - Wikimedia Commons

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...data_02-en.png


Velocivixen 05-07-15 02:33 PM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 17783116)
All well and good. But you've yet to ask me about "having a desk"...

Ok. I'll bite. Tell me about having a desk. I did a quick search back on posts looking for something I may have responded involving desks. Auto spell is not always my friend.

PalmettoUpstate 05-07-15 06:02 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17785549)
Ok. I'll bite. Tell me about having a desk. I did a quick search back on posts looking for something I may have responded involving desks. Auto spell is not always my friend.

Ha-ha-ha!

Been waiting for that so's that I could pontificate and say thanks...

Here we go...

In life we humans can't avoid encountering the kind of people who can't and won't do jacksh*t but they invariably, as a crude prop for managing insecurity, assume the air of being "an expert" and they have to be put somewhere in order to keep them from fomenting trouble in the streets...

You've met them; maybe, like me, even cursed them at times...

Whether in the military, the local governmental agencies, schools, message boards, etc. you'll find this kind of bird populating the place and attempting to make life miserable for other people.

Now this isn't to say that there aren't a LOT of people in the aforementioned venues who are jam-up individuals and who love the world and it's inhabitants and always try to do a good job. IOW, while they may work at a desk these folks don't "have a desk"!

Does this make sense? Can you think of anyone who is afflicted with "having a desk"?

Even here, at BF's?

A Redneck Dad's Maxims for his beautiful daughters:

1. Don't bring anyone around here and introduce them as your date if they can't do their own brake jobs.
2. Associate with people who can do things and will.
3. Learn how to get what you want from people who have desks.

BTW, I really, REALLY appreciate the precision, polish, and diligence you have demonstrated in your restoration endeavors as shared on this thread.

You, my dear, DON'T have a desk! LOL!

Caio!

Velocivixen 05-07-15 06:33 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 17783281)
I just checked and Terry is still offering a bike with 650C wheels specially for small riders. Actually, it looks like the 650C wheels go on bikes from about 48 cm to about 54 cm. Smaller bikes get 700C rear and some sort of 24" front. Larger get 700C front and rear. Appear to be very nice bikes with Ultegra components. Frames are butted steel made by Waterford in Wisconsin.

I've only seen a couple of the Terry bikes over the years, probably at my first and last RAGBRAI back in 2010. You'll see everything at RAGBRAI including penny-farthings, unicycles, and single speed Schwinns with coaster brakes. Best I can recall, they are nice bikes and go for a market that almost all other makers ignore.

Here is a link to tri sports website - home of supplies for the triathlete. 650c is more common than we think. I kept seeing this size crop up in various places relating to triathlons. Surprised me.

I believe it is for smaller sized bicycles. I don't know the history behind how the 650c is having a resurgence among the triathlete crowd, but I'm sore information could be sourced for the curious minded.


650c Racing Corner

Here is an article from cervelo.com answering the question regarding 650c tires.

http://www.cervelo.com/en/engineerin...cyclists-.html

PalmettoUpstate 05-07-15 08:00 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17786151)
Here is an article from cervelo.com answering the question regarding 650c tires.

What is your opinion on 650c vs 700c for smaller cyclists? - Cervélo

Excellent and thorough account of the "Raison d'etre" for the 650C size. Tx

gna 05-09-15 08:12 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 17785167)
And while I'm thinking about it, who is going to Lake Pepin this year? I definitely am!

We'll be there. My daughter is coming, too. Spent a pleasant afternoon cleaning, oiling, and adjusting:

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=450310

gna 05-09-15 08:17 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 17769509)
Very clever modification.

Tektro 800As work really well on Raleighs and are easy to modify in this manner. I did this on my wife's bike a couple of years ago. [MENTION=20548]JohnDThompson[/MENTION] showed how to do it a few years back (probably in this thread).

adventurepdx 05-09-15 09:06 PM

Cool. See you there!

jawajaws 05-10-15 05:06 AM

4 Attachment(s)
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=450374http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=450375http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=450376http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=450377

PalmettoUpstate 05-10-15 01:08 PM

The reflector would seem to date it from ~ 1963 to 1971 if what you have over there conforms, more or less, to what we have here in the usa. Is the reflector a recent aftermarket job, looks like it may be...

And a couple of other things...

Rims original? And do the wheels roll OK; those are mighty big tires on there; look like Schwalbe Big Apples from here...

jawajaws 05-11-15 12:41 AM

5 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 17792934)
The reflector would seem to date it from ~ 1963 to 1971 if what you have over there conforms, more or less, to what we have here in the usa. Is the reflector a recent aftermarket job, looks like it may be...

And a couple of other things...

Rims original? And do the wheels roll OK; those are mighty big tires on there; look like Schwalbe Big Apples from here...

Schwalbe fat frank roll ok and it is great when I drive across the tracks from the trams in the city,of course rims are in origin 28x1/2 i have 26 now,the reflector is a little bit older-prewar- but not english make
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=450580http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=450581http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=450584http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=450583http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=450582

Cascades T700 05-11-15 01:27 AM

I know I'm late to the thread, yet I've only joined the forum an hour ago. Back in 1959, as a six year old child, my parents got me a Raleigh 3 speed "English Racer". It had the SA internal gears with the "trigger"shifter and the seat stay mounted dynamo for the head and tail lights. It was a very nice bike that I rode until I out grew it. That bike gelled my aesthetics of what a bike should be. Hadn't thought of that bike in years and yet just last week, I bought a vintage T700 which is not exactly like, still the lines and vintage styling are what appeals to me.

BigChief 05-11-15 07:57 AM


Originally Posted by Cascades T700 (Post 17794238)
That bike gelled my aesthetics of what a bike should be.

My love of English bikes started when I was 12, back in '65. I was always out at dawn on junk day. The goal...3 speed "English racers" and parts. All these years later and I'm still the same. There's no rational explanation for my love of English bikes, motorcycles and cars of this period. I just took to them right away. Well...maybe seeing Emma Peel on TV in her Elan roadster might have had something to do with it.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:15 AM.


Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.