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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

SJX426 02-27-23 03:33 PM


Originally Posted by EVlove (Post 22813413)
Challenge Forte 24mm for $36.99 at The Pro's Closet -- I don't need these but what's the general experience with this vendor?

Like DD,.I have Elites. Two of them need repair with tiny holes. My preference is Vittoria Corsa G+. None in the queue for repair with many more miles. Just say'n.

1989Pre 02-27-23 03:42 PM

I got my wheel-builds done and am about to start gluing. How noxious is that glue (I have Continental)? Should I wait till spring and do them outside?

DiabloScott 02-27-23 04:31 PM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22814258)
I got my wheel-builds done and am about to start gluing. How noxious is that glue (I have Continental)? Should I wait till spring and do them outside?

It's not highly volatile stuff - it'll smell a little bit, but less than paint or solvents or fuels. Moderate ventilation would be a good thing, being outside is not necessary... just have your clean-up supplies close at hand. If it's cold, it'll be harder to work with.
Continental is well-behaved, all around good stuff... what I always use.

Dean51 02-27-23 06:58 PM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 22814303)
It's not highly volatile stuff - it'll smell a little bit, but less than paint or solvents or fuels. Moderate ventilation would be a good thing, being outside is not necessary... just have your clean-up supplies close at hand. If it's cold, it'll be harder to work with.
Continental is well-behaved, all around good stuff... what I always use.

'Agreed the fumes are not too nasty....at least in my book....and some ventilation is good.

Whether working inside our out, cold glue has been more difficult for me to spread out evenly. I warm it up by placing the glue tube in a container of warm/hot water. Perhaps a quick dip in your morning Starbucks?

Dean

79pmooney 02-27-23 07:38 PM


Originally Posted by SJX426 (Post 22814251)
Like DD,.I have Elites. Two of them need repair with tiny holes. My preference is Vittoria Corsa G+. None in the queue for repair with many more miles. Just say'n.

I goat-headed both 28c Corsa G+s I rode last fall at Cycle Oregon. Both responded nicely to an ounce each of Bontranger slime. They got a 2nd ounce each, this time of Orange Seal, last week. Other than that, they've been trouble free. And pretty high up there on the nice to ride scale! Nicest tires the Mooney has seen and it spent it first 20 years on tubbies. (I really like those Corsa G+s! Loved the clinchers and these are just that much better.)

Drillium Dude 02-28-23 01:49 AM


Originally Posted by SJX426 (Post 22814251)

...I have Elites. Two of them need repair with tiny holes. My preference is Vittoria Corsa G+. None in the queue for repair with many more miles. Just say'n.

Add me to the Vittoria Corsa G+ fan club! After chasing every which way but loose trying to locate a pair of reliable tubulars for the Davidson, I finally landed on a pair of the Control version, and they've been fantastic! If I had one complaint, it would be that the latex tubes loose air alarmingly fast when compared to your typical butyl tube. Since I prefer running at high pressures, pumping up to full pressure just prior to any ride has become my new normal - but that's okay.

After all, we cyclists need to maintain our upper-body strength, too :)

DD

EVlove 02-28-23 07:43 AM

Thanks all. I was under the impression that Challenge was a better bet than that. Didn't they take over a lot of know-how from Clement? All I know is I spent a good part of this past weekend ripping an old pair of Challenge Grifos off a Ksyrium wheelset I got for cheap from a CX guy--brake tracks worn slightly concave and all*. Took some doing, as he had been liberal with tape and Vittoria Mastik, but the tires didn't give.

But that's neither here nor there, with regard to road tires in the here and now, so good to know. Being Made in Germany myself, I'm partial to Conti, anyway.

*The front wheel is going on my first track bike and the rear may not see actual use at all so should I worry about that brake track wear? I can't seem to find a sectional drawing of the old aluminum tubular rims, only the carbon ones. I'll have to figure out a way to measure the wall thickness at the valve hole, there are no spoke holes in the gluing surface on these.

Drillium Dude 02-28-23 08:35 AM


Originally Posted by EVlove (Post 22814825)

*The front wheel is going on my first track bike and the rear may not see actual use at all so should I worry about that brake track wear?

If the wear is as obvious as you describe, I'd be loathe to use either one - even if neither rim ever contacted a brake shoe again. Photos would help, but when I read 'concave wear', I involuntarily winced :)

Retire them - your beautiful smile will thank you!

DD

smontanaro 02-28-23 08:48 AM


Originally Posted by Drillium Dude (Post 22813634)
Personally, after receiving an NOS pair with separating treads, I finally gave up on Challenge.

Ditto. I bought a couple sets from Velomine a few years ago. They got so many returns that they dropped the brand altogether.

EVlove 02-28-23 10:45 AM


Originally Posted by Drillium Dude (Post 22814861)
If the wear is as obvious as you describe, I'd be loathe to use either one - even if neither rim ever contacted a brake shoe again. Photos would help, but when I read 'concave wear', I involuntarily winced :)

Retire them - your beautiful smile will thank you!

DD

When I say concave I mean just barely. I can feel it and there's a tiny sliver of daylight against a straightedge. I checked with a 0.5mm dia. drill bit and it's clearly less than that. Considering that the removal of the old rubber by brute force did nothing to it, the rim is apparently still quite solid. But like I said, I'll determine the remaining thickness.

1989Pre 02-28-23 10:53 AM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 22814303)
It's not highly volatile stuff - it'll smell a little bit, but less than paint or solvents or fuels. Moderate ventilation would be a good thing, being outside is not necessary... just have your clean-up supplies close at hand. If it's cold, it'll be harder to work with.
Continental is well-behaved, all around good stuff... what I always use.

Thanks. That wasn't bad at all. I got the first layer put on the rims and tires, then just put the air purifier on high and went out for a long walk in the snowstorm. Same process tomorrow.

Drillium Dude 02-28-23 11:01 AM


Originally Posted by EVlove (Post 22815009)

Considering that the removal of the old rubber by brute force did nothing to it, the rim is apparently still quite solid. But like I said, I'll determine the remaining thickness.

Well, I did state a photo could help clarify, but I bow to your judgement if the concavity is measured at less than 1mm. However, having said that, I wouldn't go so far as to judge a rim's strength based upon how well it held up when removing a previously-glued tire.

If you want true peace of mind, you should be able to find sidewall thickness data regarding your specific rim (even stuff from the 70s and 80s is likely to have specs giving that information). Also, in the case of Mavic's SUP rims, their modern offerings have a 'wear indicator' groove in the center of the brake track. When the sidewall is down to the point it's effectively been 'erased', it's time to retire the rim. To my eye, the groove is only a couple millimeters deep, so you might take that into consideration as well as you go forward.

While I'm sure that advice from the manufacturer is one way of ensuring repeat customers, it must also be a case of the same manufacturer not wanting the bad publicity of their rims causing accidents and possible death due to failure of the rim sidewall, and the likely accident which follows.

DD

seedsbelize2 02-28-23 08:24 PM

https://bikerecyclery.com/panaracer-...unts-new-pair/

EVlove 03-01-23 06:49 AM

^^I saw that deal, too, but the wisdom in this thread is that these are to be avoided.

EVlove 03-01-23 06:59 AM


Originally Posted by Drillium Dude (Post 22815031)
If you want true peace of mind, you should be able to find sidewall thickness data regarding your specific rim (even stuff from the 70s and 80s is likely to have specs giving that information). Also, in the case of Mavic's SUP rims, their modern offerings have a 'wear indicator' groove in the center of the brake track. When the sidewall is down to the point it's effectively been 'erased', it's time to retire the rim. To my eye, the groove is only a couple millimeters deep, so you might take that into consideration as well as you go forward.

Still looking to find drawings or specs for these wheels. Any wear indicator is of course gone at this point. I managed to get a measurement at the valve hole that is just under 1mm wall thickness. I will need to repeat the process on both sides and with a better caliper than the cheapo I had at hand (it's plastic but at least it's vintage plastic :lol:) but I'm encouraged for now. 1mm would mean the brake track is not even close to the thinnest portion of the rim. The sections between the spoke holes are machined down starting from 1mm, I think.

EVlove 03-01-23 07:26 AM


Originally Posted by MooneyBloke (Post 22812906)
Here's a question for the peanut gallery: why the hell is Conti glue so damned expensive these days? My old 350g can for which I payed $25 at my LBS is nearly gone. No matter where I look, it seems they want about $70 for the same thing. While it's been a while since I've purchased glue, the jump in price seems unreasonable to me. The tires themselves have gone up a bit, but by a reasonable amount.

Still between 12 and 15 euros from European vendors so here's your chance to Google "Schlauchreifenkitt" :) If you order multiples or find other items to get to any order minimum and spread the shipping cost, it could be worth it. Not all will ship cement to the US. Bike24 does not but IME they are idiots, anyway. Packed an order so poorly that a bag of spokes and nipples slipped out along the way so in the end it took 6 weeks to get everything.

I just ordered a can of Conti cement from Velosaloon in Austria. Fair warning, making their 50 euro order minimum turned into an epic trip down a rabbit hole of 800+ items in the sale/clearance section alone. My first experience with them but the site is fantastic, with clear photos and descriptions of even the tiniest parts. I am so looking forward to my genuine NOS French needle and thread kit for 90 cents :)

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/10...G?v=1568806844


smontanaro 03-01-23 07:44 AM


Originally Posted by EVlove (Post 22815972)
Still between 12 and 15 euros from European vendors so here's your chance to Google "Schlauchreifenkitt" :)

I tried. It worked, up to a point. Sure enough, 350g cans of Continental tubular cement are only €10,08 from Bike24, but doesn't ship to the US (to avoid competition with US vendors or shipping of VOCs?). I'm sure there are other vendors who will, but I haven't searched further.

The discrepancy in price between Euro and US vendors suggests to me there's something going on, tariffs, perhaps?

EVlove 03-01-23 08:40 AM


Originally Posted by smontanaro (Post 22815986)
I tried. It worked, up to a point. Sure enough, 350g cans of Continental tubular cement are only €10,08 from Bike24, but doesn't ship to the US (to avoid competition with US vendors or shipping of VOCs?). I'm sure there are other vendors who will, but I haven't searched further.

The discrepancy in price between Euro and US vendors suggests to me there's something going on, tariffs, perhaps?

Yeah I'm half-expecting to get an email from Velosaloon that they can't fulfill the order because of VOC regulations. We'll see. I was able to put my order in and pay (although they didn't deduct VAT).

Bike24 has a lot of items they won't ship to the US, everything Shimano, SRAM, DT Swiss for example. I suppose that's just a contractual obligation to protect the US distributors.

MooneyBloke 03-01-23 08:57 AM

To be honest, I don't buy the VOC argument since tubes of the stuff are still readily available. As I recall, Conti glue uses hexane as the solvent, and even with the cans, you're not getting exposed at high levels. A nearly triple-fold increase in price looks like gouging to me.

I'm still somewhat annoyed that dichloromethane based strippers are prohibited by law these days. Those in very small quantity were the best chemical means of removing sew-up glue from aluminum rims. Using non-trivial amounts in enclosed spaces is really a case of stupid games/stupid prizes.

masi61 03-01-23 10:22 AM


Originally Posted by EVlove (Post 22815952)
^^I saw that deal, too, but the wisdom in this thread is that these are to be avoided.

Can you refresh my memory about why the wisdom in this thread was to avoid these tires?

79pmooney 03-01-23 12:00 PM


Originally Posted by EVlove (Post 22814825)
...

*The front wheel is going on my first track bike and the rear may not see actual use at all so should I worry about that brake track wear? I can't seem to find a sectional drawing of the old aluminum tubular rims, only the carbon ones. I'll have to figure out a way to measure the wall thickness at the valve hole, there are no spoke holes in the gluing surface on these.


Originally Posted by Drillium Dude (Post 22814861)
If the wear is as obvious as you describe, I'd be loathe to use either one - even if neither rim ever contacted a brake shoe again. Photos would help, but when I read 'concave wear', I involuntarily winced :)

Retire them - your beautiful smile will thank you!

DD


Originally Posted by Drillium Dude (Post 22815031)
Well, I did state a photo could help clarify, but I bow to your judgement if the concavity is measured at less than 1mm. However, having said that, I wouldn't go so far as to judge a rim's strength based upon how well it held up when removing a previously-glued tire.

If you want true peace of mind, you should be able to find sidewall thickness data regarding your specific rim (even stuff from the 70s and 80s is likely to have specs giving that information). Also, in the case of Mavic's SUP rims, their modern offerings have a 'wear indicator' groove in the center of the brake track. When the sidewall is down to the point it's effectively been 'erased', it's time to retire the rim. To my eye, the groove is only a couple millimeters deep, so you might take that into consideration as well as you go forward.

While I'm sure that advice from the manufacturer is one way of ensuring repeat customers, it must also be a case of the same manufacturer not wanting the bad publicity of their rims causing accidents and possible death due to failure of the rim sidewall, and the likely accident which follows.

DD

Keep in mind we are talking tubular rims, not clincher. A sidewall failure with a clincher is bad. A rifle shot to the ears and the jagged sidewall is now a sawtoothed chariot scythe cutting all (chainstays, calves ...) in its path. But a tubular rim just collapses when the sidewall fails. And you just ride home a little slower, bump, bump, bump.

Yeah, I suppose you could have a very light rim fail on a corner and maybe taco but I still think the odds are far greater that any small pavement irregularity will cause the dent I described first. (Unless this is strictly a velodrome or perfect pavement criterium wheel.) My experience has been with the 330 gr Arc en Ciels (always died of pothole dents and the like - eventually too far from round and with poor braking), the 400+ gm whatevers of the same era (same deaths; just taking far more abuse to get there). and my Ergal and Medal d'Or race wheels. (Again, same deaths but far sooner.) The GP4s I mentioned above. Again, basically the same death. Front got retired when I got home because it also had zero sidewall in places.

Th new light racing rims with high strength alloys ridden by big, strong riders - well more caution is warranted. I'm guessing some or most of those have wear indicators that I would honor.

79pmooney 03-01-23 12:15 PM


Originally Posted by masi61 (Post 22816098)
Can you refresh my memory about why the wisdom in this thread was to avoid these tires?

The word is that Challenge has been not living up to the challenge of reliably gluing on the treads. I've heard that here and in relation to their clinchers elsewhere. (My venture with Challenge clinchers a few years ago ended after I stopped believing I had safe and reliable tires under me. Bead issue. Beads lifting off the rim, blowout and destroyed expensive tubes. After spending far longer than I ever have to get that bead perfect. Then I had both latex Challenge tubes, brand new, blow out at the junction between the valve portion and the rest of the tube. 10 and 14 miles from home, first ride. So, simply not rubber I want to do a mountain descent on. Sad that I am hearing issues with their tubulars. But Vittoria makes such a nice and idiotically reliable tubular that I'm simply going there. (I've got a pair of Veloflexes I'm looking forward to.) Vittoria has been making those stupidly reliable tires a long, long time. The cheap training cottons they made with so many different labels back in the '70s. (Yes, not all vendors took proper care of those tires. Thank you, Palo Alto Bikes!)

masi61 03-01-23 12:24 PM


Originally Posted by seedsbelize2 (Post 22815694)

79pmooney - - -

These were the tubulars I was asking about, not the Challenge brand.

EVlove 03-01-23 01:18 PM


Originally Posted by masi61 (Post 22816098)
Can you refresh my memory about why the wisdom in this thread was to avoid these tires?

See post #2424 above

EVlove 03-01-23 01:31 PM


Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 22816202)
Keep in mind we are talking tubular rims, not clincher. A sidewall failure with a clincher is bad. A rifle shot to the ears and the jagged sidewall is now a sawtoothed chariot scythe cutting all (chainstays, calves ...) in its path. But a tubular rim just collapses when the sidewall fails. And you just ride home a little slower, bump, bump, bump.

Yeah, I suppose you could have a very light rim fail on a corner and maybe taco but I still think the odds are far greater that any small pavement irregularity will cause the dent I described first. (Unless this is strictly a velodrome or perfect pavement criterium wheel.) My experience has been with the 330 gr Arc en Ciels (always died of pothole dents and the like - eventually too far from round and with poor braking), the 400+ gm whatevers of the same era (same deaths; just taking far more abuse to get there). and my Ergal and Medal d'Or race wheels. (Again, same deaths but far sooner.) The GP4s I mentioned above. Again, basically the same death. Front got retired when I got home because it also had zero sidewall in places.

Th new light racing rims with high strength alloys ridden by big, strong riders - well more caution is warranted. I'm guessing some or most of those have wear indicators that I would honor.

I'm not sure I can follow you. It is a tubular rim and it will be strictly for the velodrome.

Anyway, as I have been explaining, I'm not rushing into this and will measure the wall thickness as accurately as I can before I put any more work and money into this wheel, let alone ride it. Right now I simply would like to find a sectional drawing to see what's what when the rim is new. Again, this is not a C&V wheel at all, it's one of those Mavic integrated things with proprietary hubs, spokes, nipples, and whatnot. At this moment, from what I have been able to observe, I think 1mm of aluminum is all there ever was in many places on these rims. Without removing the spokes (which, of course, requires a proprietary wrench), the valve hole is the only spot where the thickness of the extrusion can even be seen. The inner valve hole measures 1mm thick exactly, the outer is considerably thinner in the center of the tire bed.

EVlove 03-01-23 03:45 PM

To explain in more detail, what I would like to find is something like this, except this is a Weinmann Pegasus clincher rim, not a Mavic:

https://www.weinmanntek.com/archive/...%9B%BE%206.png


So I imagine the Ksyrium looks much the same in cross-section, minus the clincher horns of course. My brake tracks are worn down but there is still a little "step" between the brake track and the rest of the sidewall. Which would mean there is just as much material left there as there is throughout the rest. But I want to measure that and/or confirm the original cross-section did indeed have extra material in the way of the brake tracks.

It's just not the same starting point as with an old school rim that's the same thickness everywhere and hence every bit of wear makes the brake track the thinnest wall.

CV-6 03-01-23 04:41 PM

Check into Araya Aero rims. There are several models which might work for you. One model below on my Raysport.

https://live.staticflickr.com/5541/3...f2db0407_b.jpg20080911_9 by L Travers, on Flickr

masi61 03-01-23 04:55 PM


Originally Posted by EVlove (Post 22816279)
See post #2424 above

Oh, gotcha - I actually bought a pair of the Panaracer tubular 23’s for an even lower price (it may have been for the same “recyclery” place. I guess I will find out if they also blow out randomly…

EVlove 03-01-23 05:28 PM


Originally Posted by CV-6 (Post 22816468)
Check into Araya Aero rims. There are several models which might work for you. One model below on my Raysport.

I have one on the rear :) Not branded but unmistakable, with spoke hole inserts, 21mm wide, it must be an ADX-2.

1989Pre 03-04-23 03:32 PM

Well, I mounted my first set of tubular tires. I did not get them as straight-as-an-arrow, but they are on the rims. Some glue got around to where it should not be, but fortunately not a huge mess. What's the buzz? Lighter fluid will take it off? I pumped them up to 140 lbs to set them (my pump only goes to 160), and hopefully, I'll have good luck with them this summer.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d70cc24d77.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c2032a7764.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b1e9fb965c.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...392fb9be40.jpg


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