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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

BigChief 10-15-18 10:22 PM


Originally Posted by PeterLYoung (Post 20616746)
I have been looking on the Veteran Cycle Club Website and found some clarification of how the BSA Three Speed came into being and I Quote the VCC & Tony Hadland below:-
--------------------------------------------------------------------Quote
By 1907 BSA were desperate to produce a three-speed hub gear. They had merged with Eadie, makers of the Fagan two-speed and a two-speed coaster brake, early in 1907. Towards the end of that year they acquired the rights of the Hub Two-Speed Gear Company. BSA therefore had the rights to produce no less than three two-speed hubs: the Fagan (Eadie), the Hub and their own Mark II hub. In addition, they had the rights to the Eadie Two-Speed coaster. But demand for two-speeds was now much reduced, whereas the market for three-speeds was almost insatiable. The Hub Company had patented a three-speed in 1903 (#22,306) but nothing commercial seems to have come of it. BSA therefore approached the Three-Speed Gear Syndicate requesting permission to build the Sturmey-Archer three-speed under license. According to Henry Sturmey, writing in 1924, the Syndicate were unable to cope with demand in 1907 and therefore granted a license to BSA.
The Sturmey-Archer Story by Tony Hadland
The Fagan two-speed hub had been introduced at the 1903 Stanley Show for the 1904 season, and fitted as standard on the Royal Enfield Modele Riche, while a coaster brake was fitted to the ‘Royal Enfield’ and ‘Model B.’ BSA at this time only sold components, not complete bicycles, but their order books were full, and their bikes in knock-down form were in much demand from abroad, particularly Australia. Motorcycle builders favoured BSA bicycles, in particular their spring-frame models. BSA were about to expand their business: with the success of the motorcycle market, by 1910 they had also re-commenced full-scale cycle production. This was why it was essential for them to be able to fully control the supply of three-speed hubs.
------------------------------------------------------------------Unquote
So it is now clear to me that BSA did not design their three speed hub but I still need to determine the SA version I have, though it looks very much like the 'X' version copied from the SA History site and it has the same very fine threaded gear change spindle that is so easy to break if has corroded together.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2dfd11ffe9.png

I love this bike. Thanks for sharing your research. It's fun to learn new things. Please post pics of the teardown if you have a chance. I'd like to see more of this bike.

PeterLYoung 10-16-18 01:40 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20618441)
I love this bike. Thanks for sharing your research. It's fun to learn new things. Please post pics of the teardown if you have a chance. I'd like to see more of this bike.

1936 BSA Roadster Serial Number WD29996
Here are a few more photos of parts of the bike only one taken of parts under restoration showing use of Clothes Rail and Garden Wire to respray small parts, an approach that works very well.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b86cbd2c83.jpg

Found the Bike Serial Number stamped on Saddle Lug, had to file off paint to make visible.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7f1b75892d.jpg

Original BSA Gear Changer with Lucas Challis Bell behind.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ac43801ec8.jpg

Lucas Challis Bell.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8a2ebf7ee7.jpg

Front BSA Brake Hub, have a similar Sturmey Archer one but design is different.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...36edd17bb8.jpg

Original Saddle, very fragile so I am restoring a Brooks Leather B66 which will be more practical. It was used on similar bikes at the time.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...70ae420473.jpg

Combined BSA Three Speed & Hub Brake, seems to be a rare item, have not found one on the Web yet.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a213d84d1c.jpg

Clothes Rail and Garden Wire are great for spraying small items, Mudguards on trestle in front.

gster 10-16-18 04:24 AM


Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 20618381)
"So low"? :rolleyes:
Well, maybe for pretty flat Toronto...
I have a 23T cog for both my three speeds, and appreciate the low for the varied topography of Portland. I don't care too much about the overdrive, I want something that'll get me up the hills.

Toronto is pretty flat travelling crosstown (east-west) but going north is a steady incline.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...dde8a87d3d.png

clubman 10-16-18 07:10 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20618594)
Toronto is pretty flat travelling crosstown (east-west) but going north is a steady incline.

Cool map. Riding to uptown TO from the lake was always a good workout. The Don Valley ravine was my fave ride north. All parkland. You just had to stand and go hard to get out of the vally at Eglinton and Leslie for about 15 minutes.

clubman 10-16-18 08:43 AM

It's a stock 19" camelback frame. In older days they were often called Colts but were also released with other offbrand names.

adventurepdx 10-16-18 11:24 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20618594)
Toronto is pretty flat travelling crosstown (east-west) but going north is a steady incline.

There is a difference between steady incline and short, steep hills. Portland's got both. I appreciate a low of around 40" when I hit those hills at 5-8% grade.

In any case (and without arguing further), the point I'm trying to make is that we're all different. We may have different fitness abilities and the terrain of our respective homes isn't the same as everyone else's. You may think going lower than 20T in the rear cog is overkill, whereas I tried that here and moved on to 23T which I am much happier with.

52telecaster 10-16-18 11:49 AM

Hey I set my aw hubs up with a max of 54 in 2nd. Sometimes significantly lower. I feel your pain brother!

gster 10-16-18 05:44 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20618744)
Cool map. Riding to uptown TO from the lake was always a good workout. The Don Valley ravine was my fave ride north. All parkland. You just had to stand and go hard to get out of the valley at Eglinton and Leslie for about 15 minutes.

It sits in the old lake bed with Davenport Road being the old shoreline.

gster 10-16-18 05:46 PM


Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 20619179)
There is a difference between steady incline and short, steep hills. Portland's got both. I appreciate a low of around 40" when I hit those hills at 5-8% grade.

In any case (and without arguing further), the point I'm trying to make is that we're all different. We may have different fitness abilities and the terrain of our respective homes isn't the same as everyone else's. You may think going lower than 20T in the rear cog is overkill, whereas I tried that here and moved on to 23T which I am much happier with.

Agreed.

gster 10-16-18 08:38 PM


Originally Posted by tigervw78 (Post 20615565)
Thanks for the info everyone. I've got a 22T on the 72 Sports with flipped bars and a B17 narrow. I mainly use 2nd on that one. I also recently got a 74 Sports with B66 that I plan to leave original and riding upright with the 18T is tough. I was considering the 24T because I traverse this steep harbor bridge quite a bit and Memphis humidity is a killer. Ironically, we can get pretty strong winds as well. I'll be 48 in a few days and the knees aren't as strong as they used to be....

If I find that riding upright with 24T is too low, I ordered a 22T as well, so I'll swap them. Will let you know how it goes.

At least if you switch back to a smaller cog, you can just shorten the chain and not buy a new one...
P.S. I'm proposing a new PBS segment on local TV.
Cog Talk
15 minutes a week
Phone in show
w /special guests.
Hopefully prizes (cogs)

agmetal 10-16-18 10:52 PM

Just a picture of my 1937 Raleigh Tourist taken with a 1940s camera (and a tiny bit of tweaking on a computer)
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...10e96c57f7.jpg

BigChief 10-17-18 04:36 AM

Cool photo!. The boots give it away as modern though. Do you have the lights working yet? I just recently joined the Dynohub club with my last project. It's a nice feature, I'm having fun with it. Oops...I meant to say fitment!

Dan Burkhart 10-17-18 05:11 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20610251)
I believe they are Sturmey Archer KB and LB hubs. Either made under license or simply stamped with the BSA logo. Here's a 1934 SA catalog page. Spares for these are a machine shop proposition unless you're exceptionally lucky. Great bike!!!

I have a 1950 BSA hub disassembled on the bench right now, and it looks exactly like a Sturmey Archer X model. http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.co...os/pic-8.1.jpg
And the BSA https://hadland.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/bsa.pdf

Dan Burkhart 10-17-18 05:18 AM


Originally Posted by PeterLYoung (Post 20616795)
Just arrived in post today a BSA 3 Speed Hub plus a NOS BSA Hub Drive Piece, still has some greaseproof paper on it.

Now I can experiment with dismantling the hub plus have spare parts in case of repair or loss of components:-

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2f0ba0a4e9.png

Managed to unscrew the Gear Change Spindle OK so thats a good sign!!!

I'm trouble shooting a hub of that model right now. Pretty sure I've identified the issues with it and will be posting a youtube video when I'm done, likely in a day or two.

BigChief 10-17-18 06:10 AM


Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart (Post 20620374)
I'm trouble shooting a hub of that model right now. Pretty sure I've identified the issues with it and will be posting a youtube video when I'm done, likely in a day or two.

That's great! Videos are wonderful. I just serviced my first Dyno Hub and it so nice to be able to watch one on YouTube before I started. My days of servicing AW hubs goes way back before the internet, but I had to do an S5 without one and it was a pest to sit there with a pad and pencil making notes of every detail as it came apart. I would have liked to have a video to refer to. The chances of me servicing an X hub are pretty slim, but I would enjoy watching anyway. You never know.

PeterLYoung 10-17-18 06:29 AM


Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart (Post 20620374)
I'm trouble shooting a hub of that model right now. Pretty sure I've identified the issues with it and will be posting a youtube video when I'm done, likely in a day or two.

Hi Dan: Will look forward to your video, got mine 90% dismantled without breaking anything, found out why it did not work well, somebody tried undoing Left side adjuster cone and dropped a ball bearing from the cage into the inside of the hub, probably without realising and did it all up again, it was a bit grindy to say the least!!!

JaccoW 10-17-18 07:17 AM


Originally Posted by PeterLYoung (Post 20616795)
Just arrived in post today a BSA 3 Speed Hub plus a NOS BSA Hub Drive Piece, still has some greaseproof paper on it.

Now I can experiment with dismantling the hub plus have spare parts in case of repair or loss of components:-
[image]
Managed to unscrew the Gear Change Spindle OK so thats a good sign!!!

If you want the matching BSA dynohub, there is one for sale here: Sturmey Archer Vintage (BSA Front Hub Dino In Full Working Order Approx 1955 - Ebay.co.uk

Just ask the seller if he is willing to ship to the US

EDIT: Nevermind I see the bike has a front brake hub.

noglider 10-17-18 07:48 AM

youtube is amazing. On youtube, I learned how to braid round challah bread, how to snake out a clogged sewer line, and how to make a heat tolerant gasket. I've watched Dan's videos on IGHs, and I haven't needed them, but I just plain enjoy them.

OMG I just saw that Dan has his videos in French, too! Quelle vrai Canadien!

There was a series of IGH videos by a British guy named Graham, but I can't find them now!

agmetal 10-17-18 08:18 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20620355)
Cool photo!. The boots give it away as modern though. Do you have the lights working yet? I just recently joined the Dynohub club with my last project. It's a nice feature, I'm having fun with it. Oops...I meant to say fitment!

I have the headlamp working with an LED bulb (I got one with a 3000K "warm white" color, so it actually looks similar to an incandescent when lit up), but haven't been able to find a suitable bulb for the rear yet. A friend and I are discussing how to reduce the flicker, and whether the smoothing/standlight(?) circuit can be built into a form small enough to fit inside the housing of the light.

52telecaster 10-17-18 08:29 AM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 20620502)
youtube is amazing. On youtube, I learned how to braid round challah bread, how to snake out a clogged sewer line, and how to make a heat tolerant gasket. I've watched Dan's videos on IGHs, and I haven't needed them, but I just plain enjoy them.

OMG I just saw that Dan has his videos in French, too! Quelle vrai Canadien!

There was a series of IGH videos by a British guy named Graham, but I can't find them now!

any task I am unfamiliar with now gets a YouTube view first. Chilton's? No thanks!

tigervw78 10-17-18 08:40 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20620121)
At least if you switch back to a smaller cog, you can just shorten the chain and not buy a new one...
P.S. I'm proposing a new PBS segment on local TV.
Cog Talk
15 minutes a week
Phone in show
w /special guests.
Hopefully prizes (cogs)

I"d listen to that...

Dan Burkhart 10-17-18 08:50 AM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 20620502)
youtube is amazing. On youtube, I learned how to braid round challah bread, how to snake out a clogged sewer line, and how to make a heat tolerant gasket. I've watched Dan's videos on IGHs, and I haven't needed them, but I just plain enjoy them.

OMG I just saw that Dan has his videos in French, too! Quelle vrai Canadien!

Thanks Tom. My wife is fluently bilingual, that's her doing the voiceover. Hopefully some day, we will get around to doing more of them.

PeterLYoung 10-17-18 09:48 AM


Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart (Post 20620374)
I'm trouble shooting a hub of that model right now. Pretty sure I've identified the issues with it and will be posting a youtube video when I'm done, likely in a day or two.

Dan: Here is my 'Spare' BSA 3 Speed Hub Stripped, had hell of a job getting L/H End Plate (left hand thread) undone, used WD 40 + heating it up, eventually it gave in and came undone. I have stripped it as far as I needed to ascertain condition of parts so it is 90% dismantled. L/H Hub Cone is badly pitted, must have been run for some time in dry condition, also one of its ball bearings had escaped the cage and was inside the body of the hub. Rest of it looks OK after I cleaned all the dirt out (there was a lot). Although you cannot see them in this picture all the Pawls & Springs are working OK.
Look forward to your video.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...902417123b.jpg

BSA 3 Speed 'X' Type Hub 90% Stripped

Dan Burkhart 10-17-18 09:57 AM


Originally Posted by PeterLYoung (Post 20620744)
Dan: Here is my 'Spare' BSA 3 Speed Hub Stripped, had hell of a job getting L/H End Plate (left hand thread) undone, used WD 40 + heating it up, eventually it gave in and came undone. I have stripped it as far as I needed to ascertain condition of parts so it is 90% dismantled. L/H Hub Cone is badly pitted, must have been run for some time in dry condition, also one of its ball bearings had escaped the cage and was inside the body of the hub. Rest of it looks OK after I cleaned all the dirt out (there was a lot).
Look forward to your video.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...902417123b.jpg

BSA 3 Speed 'X' Type Hub 90% Stripped

You may be able to fit a new cone if you can find one of a similar radius profile. The axle is a 3/8 x 26, so your chances are pretty good. Unlikely that the shield that presses on to the cone would fit though, so you would have to figure out another way to shield the bearing.

PeterLYoung 10-17-18 10:45 AM


Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart (Post 20620766)
You may be able to fit a new cone if you can find one of a similar radius profile. The axle is a 3/8 x 26, so your chances are pretty good. Unlikely that the shield that presses on to the cone would fit though, so you would have to figure out another way to shield the bearing.

Dan: I am not planning to use use this hub other than for spare parts for my BSA Roaster 3 Speed Hub when I get to overhaul it so the worn cone will not be an issue but thanks for the suggestion.


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