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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

gugie 04-21-19 05:46 PM

Do two speed kickbacks count?

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8d19114344.jpg

clubman 04-21-19 06:53 PM


Originally Posted by gugie (Post 20894475)

Yes indeed and English to boot.

HPL 04-22-19 01:27 AM

1969/70 Raleigh Sports, DL-1, etc. Adjustments/Tuning
 
Hi, New to the website, and certainly this forum. I have a few 3 spds kicking around and need a little advice. I've not done a full review of this thread so I apologize for duplicating a query regarding the shifting of the hub. I have been having problems with the hub "free-spinning" when shifting up to 3rd gear. If I shift pedal a little (2-3 revolutions), coast, and then pedal there is rarely a problem, but if I just shift and start to pedal hard in 3rd gear it seems to disengage/slip. I've followed Sheldon Brown's advice on adjustment, but still have the problem. Making tiny adjustments merely seems to "shift" (no pun intended) the problem to another gear- 2nd!. I've partially dismantled the hub without removing any gearing, just checking the internals, which appears nearly spotless (clean grease/lubrication, no dirt or grit). The entire hub looks practically brand new (1969 date code), as does the entire bike after initial clean-up/maintenance. It had a cross threaded left crank and pedal when I got it, and that's technically the only repair I've done other than repacking the hub bearings ( clean upon start, with some minor pitting on the front cones/races, but not at all noticeable; spins great/smooth). I will get photos up soon; I've just gotten photo privileges, so I've not loaded all my photos into my album. I've also got questions on brake adjustment/play, and hub bearing adjustment/locking, and mounting wheel without affecting the adjustment. It seems to be a pain to get these items set up and kept set up. I remove my front wheel regularly (I drive a Mini Cooper) for transporting so front bearing and brake seem to lose adjustment/alignment nearly every time I remove and reinstall the wheel.

Just a note about the racing of an English 3 spd: I've done it with the bike mentioned above in a rather informal "open field criterium"(thus the bike choice); but with plenty of folks riding racers, tandems, and mtb, cross bikes. I was the only one on anything that weighed over 25 lbs (excepting tandems), my ride as outfitted weighed in at approximately 53 lbs. I beat everyone to the first check in using very good road knowledge and time saving city cycling techniques. I made only one mod. for racing- I slapped on a pair of Look pedals so I could turn some real rpms; I did approx. 25 miles on that bike by the end of the day; I should mention that there were a couple of voluntary pub stops during the race. Enjoyed riding that bike all day, had a Brooks Flyer saddle on it so made it really good for racing type of pace, not something I'd do on a B.72.

I have another Sports for parts or extreme modification, a Royal Scot (mid 70's), and a couple 1930's (?) Dl-1 style rides; all awaiting rebuilding so I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future.

PeterLYoung 04-22-19 03:59 AM


Originally Posted by HPL (Post 20894834)
Hi, New to the website, and certainly this forum. I have a few 3 spds kicking around and need a little advice. I've not done a full review of this thread so I apologize for duplicating a query regarding the shifting of the hub. I have been having problems with the hub "free-spinning" when shifting up to 3rd gear. If I shift pedal a little (2-3 revolutions), coast, and then pedal there is rarely a problem, but if I just shift and start to pedal hard in 3rd gear it seems to disengage/slip. I've followed Sheldon Brown's advice on adjustment, but still have the problem. Making tiny adjustments merely seems to "shift" (no pun intended) the problem to another gear- 2nd!. I've partially dismantled the hub without removing any gearing, just checking the internals, which appears nearly spotless (clean grease/lubrication, no dirt or grit). The entire hub looks practically brand new (1969 date code), as does the entire bike after initial clean-up/maintenance. It had a cross threaded left crank and pedal when I got it, and that's technically the only repair I've done other than repacking the hub bearings ( clean upon start, with some minor pitting on the front cones/races, but not at all noticeable; spins great/smooth). I will get photos up soon; I've just gotten photo privileges, so I've not loaded all my photos into my album. I've also got questions on brake adjustment/play, and hub bearing adjustment/locking, and mounting wheel without affecting the adjustment. It seems to be a pain to get these items set up and kept set up. I remove my front wheel regularly (I drive a Mini Cooper) for transporting so front bearing and brake seem to lose adjustment/alignment nearly every time I remove and reinstall the wheel.

Just a note about the racing of an English 3 spd: I've done it with the bike mentioned above in a rather informal "open field criterium"(thus the bike choice); but with plenty of folks riding racers, tandems, and mtb, cross bikes. I was the only one on anything that weighed over 25 lbs (excepting tandems), my ride as outfitted weighed in at approximately 53 lbs. I beat everyone to the first check in using very good road knowledge and time saving city cycling techniques. I made only one mod. for racing- I slapped on a pair of Look pedals so I could turn some real rpms; I did approx. 25 miles on that bike by the end of the day; I should mention that there were a couple of voluntary pub stops during the race. Enjoyed riding that bike all day, had a Brooks Flyer saddle on it so made it really good for racing type of pace, not something I'd do on a B.72.

I have another Sports for parts or extreme modification, a Royal Scot (mid 70's), and a couple 1930's (?) Dl-1 style rides; all awaiting rebuilding so I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future.

I am not expert so others may have a different take on this but having dismantled several hubs and seeing your description of pedal/coast/pedal to get engagement I think it could be pawls not engaging properly possibly due to wear and or weakened/broken pawl springs. Easy to fix if that's the case, Parts easily available for most models.

PeterLYoung 04-22-19 04:04 AM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 20892735)
I also recall reading BITD that the Triumph 4's had under-square cylinders - back then it was believed that a narrower cylinder bore and a longer piston stroke (longer throws on the crankshaft, equivalent to longer crank arms) resulted in higher torque at lower RPM, relative to a larger cylinder bore and shorter stroke, at constant displacement (cubic inches). Makes sense that it was a tractor engine. I assume the same was true for the 6 cylinder.

I believe they based the Vitesse 6 cylinder on the Standard 8/10 4 cylinder engine block adding two cyclinders.

thumpism 04-22-19 05:32 AM

Aside from the complete description of a classic English 3-speed missing its fenders, when was the last time you saw a fenderless bike still with its fender stays intact?

https://richmond.craigslist.org/bik/...871762297.html

Vintage Phillips 3 speed English bicycle - $75 (Petersburg)

https://images.craigslist.org/00D0D_...hK_600x450.jpg

bicycle frame material: steel
bicycle type: cruiser
brake type: other/unknown
condition: fair
frame size: Unknown
make / manufacturer: Phillips
wheel size: 26 in

Phillips English bicycle. 26" 3sp. Bike is complete, needs restoration. Serious inquiries only.

gster 04-22-19 05:53 AM


Originally Posted by HPL (Post 20894834)
Hi, New to the website, and certainly this forum. I have a few 3 spds kicking around and need a little advice. I've not done a full review of this thread so I apologize for duplicating a query regarding the shifting of the hub. I have been having problems with the hub "free-spinning" when shifting up to 3rd gear. If I shift pedal a little (2-3 revolutions), coast, and then pedal there is rarely a problem, but if I just shift and start to pedal hard in 3rd gear it seems to disengage/slip. I've followed Sheldon Brown's advice on adjustment, but still have the problem. Making tiny adjustments merely seems to "shift" (no pun intended) the problem to another gear- 2nd!. I've partially dismantled the hub without removing any gearing, just checking the internals, which appears nearly spotless (clean grease/lubrication, no dirt or grit). The entire hub looks practically brand new (1969 date code), as does the entire bike after initial clean-up/maintenance. It had a cross threaded left crank and pedal when I got it, and that's technically the only repair I've done other than repacking the hub bearings ( clean upon start, with some minor pitting on the front cones/races, but not at all noticeable; spins great/smooth). I will get photos up soon; I've just gotten photo privileges, so I've not loaded all my photos into my album. I've also got questions on brake adjustment/play, and hub bearing adjustment/locking, and mounting wheel without affecting the adjustment. It seems to be a pain to get these items set up and kept set up. I remove my front wheel regularly (I drive a Mini Cooper) for transporting so front bearing and brake seem to lose adjustment/alignment nearly every time I remove and reinstall the wheel.

Just a note about the racing of an English 3 spd: I've done it with the bike mentioned above in a rather informal "open field criterium"(thus the bike choice); but with plenty of folks riding racers, tandems, and mtb, cross bikes. I was the only one on anything that weighed over 25 lbs (excepting tandems), my ride as outfitted weighed in at approximately 53 lbs. I beat everyone to the first check in using very good road knowledge and time saving city cycling techniques. I made only one mod. for racing- I slapped on a pair of Look pedals so I could turn some real rpms; I did approx. 25 miles on that bike by the end of the day; I should mention that there were a couple of voluntary pub stops during the race. Enjoyed riding that bike all day, had a Brooks Flyer saddle on it so made it really good for racing type of pace, not something I'd do on a B.72.

I have another Sports for parts or extreme modification, a Royal Scot (mid 70's), and a couple 1930's (?) Dl-1 style rides; all awaiting rebuilding so I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future.

Hard to diagnose without seeing it.
Generally they're quite bullet proof
I would make sure that:
-the cable is fully seated in the trigger
-the fulcrum stop is tight
-the carrier wheel is tight
-hub is secure in dropouts
-the hub is not too tight (a little play is required)
Sometimes the indicator chain has been swapped
and the standard adjustment guidelines don't work.
Failing that you may have to open the hub.
I had a similar problem on a bike a while back.
On inspection I found a mangled sun gear...
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...715131fdeb.jpg
This was caused by an inexperienced mechanic
over tightening the hub.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...aa1e5c714c.jpg
healthy sun gear.

You never know who's messed around with this
bike over the last 50 years
Good luck

gster 04-22-19 06:15 AM


Originally Posted by gugie (Post 20894475)

I like 'em.
I've got a '73 Raleigh/Glider with a
'67 Torpedo kick back hub.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...618686b323.jpg
The bars have since been swapped for uprights.
Caliper brake up front for safety.

gster 04-22-19 08:25 AM

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7a707625f9.jpg
Confiscated bike really is a piece of junk..
Late 80's Raleigh Montage.
A sticker reveals it was sold here
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6670a521a4.jpg
Wilf's Cycle and Sports
19 John Street, Weston (Toronto).
Great sign...
This house stood on the same site.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d900a153c3.jpg

Oldsledz 04-22-19 04:53 PM

I am trying to lube the head tube bearings on a 1972 Raleigh Sports, some of the bearing dropped, can anyone tell me how many I should have? Thanks

rickpaulos 04-22-19 04:55 PM

24 and 24 balls in the standard raleigh headset.

Oldsledz 04-22-19 05:54 PM


Originally Posted by rickpaulos (Post 20896011)
24 and 24 balls in the standard raleigh headset.

Will it be ok with 23? are they a common size that a bike shop would stock? I am all set now, I found some the same size in a parts bike.

BigChief 04-23-19 05:53 AM


Originally Posted by HPL (Post 20894834)
Hi, New to the website, and certainly this forum. I have a few 3 spds kicking around and need a little advice. I've not done a full review of this thread so I apologize for duplicating a query regarding the shifting of the hub. I have been having problems with the hub "free-spinning" when shifting up to 3rd gear. If I shift pedal a little (2-3 revolutions), coast, and then pedal there is rarely a problem, but if I just shift and start to pedal hard in 3rd gear it seems to disengage/slip. I've followed Sheldon Brown's advice on adjustment, but still have the problem. Making tiny adjustments merely seems to "shift" (no pun intended) the problem to another gear- 2nd!. I've partially dismantled the hub without removing any gearing, just checking the internals, which appears nearly spotless (clean grease/lubrication, no dirt or grit). The entire hub looks practically brand new (1969 date code), as does the entire bike after initial clean-up/maintenance. It had a cross threaded left crank and pedal when I got it, and that's technically the only repair I've done other than repacking the hub bearings ( clean upon start, with some minor pitting on the front cones/races, but not at all noticeable; spins great/smooth). I will get photos up soon; I've just gotten photo privileges, so I've not loaded all my photos into my album. I've also got questions on brake adjustment/play, and hub bearing adjustment/locking, and mounting wheel without affecting the adjustment. It seems to be a pain to get these items set up and kept set up. I remove my front wheel regularly (I drive a Mini Cooper) for transporting so front bearing and brake seem to lose adjustment/alignment nearly every time I remove and reinstall the wheel.

Just a note about the racing of an English 3 spd: I've done it with the bike mentioned above in a rather informal "open field criterium"(thus the bike choice); but with plenty of folks riding racers, tandems, and mtb, cross bikes. I was the only one on anything that weighed over 25 lbs (excepting tandems), my ride as outfitted weighed in at approximately 53 lbs. I beat everyone to the first check in using very good road knowledge and time saving city cycling techniques. I made only one mod. for racing- I slapped on a pair of Look pedals so I could turn some real rpms; I did approx. 25 miles on that bike by the end of the day; I should mention that there were a couple of voluntary pub stops during the race. Enjoyed riding that bike all day, had a Brooks Flyer saddle on it so made it really good for racing type of pace, not something I'd do on a B.72.

I have another Sports for parts or extreme modification, a Royal Scot (mid 70's), and a couple 1930's (?) Dl-1 style rides; all awaiting rebuilding so I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future.

It seems to me that if slipping into that neutral spot actually changes from 2nd to 3rd with cable adjustment, that would rule out sticky pawls or broken gears. Sounds to me like a cable adjustment or a problem with the adjustment remaining consistent. Normally, all the adjustment needs to be is slack enough to allow 3rd to engage, tight enough for 1st to engage and still avoid that neutral spot between 2nd and 3rd. So, if 2nd slips, tighten the barrel adjuster 1/2 turn at a time. If 3rd slips, loosen 1/2 turn at a time. If that doesn't work, go through gster's list. I'll add replace the indicator pin/chain assembly if the chain is bent or rusty.

clubman 04-23-19 06:18 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20895119)

That's my first bike shop (at 6 years old). Skates, hockey stick and first CCM bike were all purchased there. Thanks.

gster 04-23-19 06:25 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20896702)
It seems to me that if slipping into that neutral spot actually changes from 2nd to 3rd with cable adjustment, that would rule out sticky pawls or broken gears. Sounds to me like a cable adjustment or a problem with the adjustment remaining consistent. Normally, all the adjustment needs to be is slack enough to allow 3rd to engage, tight enough for 1st to engage and still avoid that neutral spot between 2nd and 3rd. So, if 2nd slips, tighten the barrel adjuster 1/2 turn at a time. If 3rd slips, loosen 1/2 turn at a time. If that doesn't work, go through gster's list. I'll add replace the indicator pin/chain assembly if the chain is bent or rusty.

I had a similar problem on a bike a while back.
No matter how well I adjusted the indicator, it would work then slip....
In my case it was the fulcrum stop. It was loose and was slowly moving along the top tube....

gster 04-23-19 06:29 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20896735)
That's my first bike shop (at 6 years old). Skates, hockey stick and first CCM bike were all purchased there. Thanks.

Glad you liked it. I know there was another shop further south on Weston Road
near the old Dairy Queen (both gone).
The bar I frequent in Parkdale, (the) Mezz was
an old bike shop.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0886a3457b.jpg

HPL 04-23-19 07:08 AM

Hub intermittent disengagement
 
Thanks for the input BigChief, hater, Peter; I checked all all points mentioned and just by paying a little more attention afterwards I believe I have found the issue and it makes sense for the symptoms. It would seem that the indicator chain is not entering/exiting the hub cleanly. Thus, hanging up for a brief moment (the pedal/coast mode allowed it to properly settle after a slight delay. This has been visually verified, but I've not done a test drive yet. It's fine shifting on the stand without any load other than the wheel itself. This is probably my fault since I've been experimenting with the installation of a boot to keep dirt and grime from building up on the indicator and possibly introducing contaminants into the transmission. Boot is gone, and I'll test drive and make micro adjustments. The hub gears show no signs of wear or damage. Lubrication is clean. I'll take it on the road Friday and see how it does. Also, I'll get some photos with it out of the house.

BigChief 04-23-19 07:15 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20896741)
I had a similar problem on a bike a while back.
No matter how well I adjusted the indicator, it would work then slip....
In my case it was the fulcrum stop. It was loose and was slowly moving along the top tube....

Also, sometime in the 70s, somebody had the bright idea of eliminating the nut that held the guide wheel on the seat tube. They made the strap longer, folded it over, drilled and tapped a hole in the strap. These threads strip easily. If they are, it won't allow the band to be tightened enough to keep the wheel from slipping. Too bad SA abandoned the steel wheel with the two piece strap. A perfect example of penny wise pound foolish.

HPL 04-23-19 07:17 AM

gster is not a "hater"!
 

Originally Posted by gster (Post 20896741)
I had a similar problem on a bike a while back.
No matter how well I adjusted the indicator, it would work then slip....
In my case it was the fulcrum stop. It was loose and was slowly moving along the top tube....

​​​​Sorry gster, my "smart" device is calling you names not me. I have to train it to take your name; should be okay now. Thanks again for your advice. Test ride upcoming, with resultant feedback to the thread. Hope I found the problem.

gster 04-23-19 07:22 AM


Originally Posted by HPL (Post 20896794)
Thanks for the input BigChief, hater (Gster), Peter; I checked all all points mentioned and just by paying a little more attention afterwards I believe I have found the issue and it makes sense for the symptoms. It would seem that the indicator chain is not entering/exiting the hub cleanly. Thus, hanging up for a brief moment (the pedal/coast mode allowed it to properly settle after a slight delay. This has been visually verified, but I've not done a test drive yet. It's fine shifting on the stand without any load other than the wheel itself. This is probably my fault since I've been experimenting with the installation of a boot to keep dirt and grime from building up on the indicator and possibly introducing contaminants into the transmission. Boot is gone, and I'll test drive and make micro adjustments. The hub gears show no signs of wear or damage. Lubrication is clean. I'll take it on the road Friday and see how it does. Also, I'll get some photos with it out of the house.

I've changed my "handle" from hater to Gster.

Ged117 04-23-19 07:53 AM

I received the pulley mount, steel pulley wheel, metal fulcrum and associated clips the other day from Jon@Gentlemancycles for my Sturmey FW four-speed commuter Peugeot project.

Just another reminder of how great this thread is for fans of these machines, and how often the ingenuity and resourcefulness of individual members really can add value to each project.

gster 04-23-19 10:31 AM


Originally Posted by Oldsledz (Post 20896114)
Will it be ok with 23? are they a common size that a bike shop would stock? I am all set now, I found some the same size in a parts bike.

best to stick with the factory design.
Sheldon Brown says:
  • The headset uses 25 5/32 inch loose bearing balls in each race.

BigChief 04-23-19 11:49 AM


Originally Posted by HPL (Post 20896794)
Thanks for the input BigChief, hater, Peter; I checked all all points mentioned and just by paying a little more attention afterwards I believe I have found the issue and it makes sense for the symptoms. It would seem that the indicator chain is not entering/exiting the hub cleanly. Thus, hanging up for a brief moment (the pedal/coast mode allowed it to properly settle after a slight delay. This has been visually verified, but I've not done a test drive yet. It's fine shifting on the stand without any load other than the wheel itself. This is probably my fault since I've been experimenting with the installation of a boot to keep dirt and grime from building up on the indicator and possibly introducing contaminants into the transmission. Boot is gone, and I'll test drive and make micro adjustments. The hub gears show no signs of wear or damage. Lubrication is clean. I'll take it on the road Friday and see how it does. Also, I'll get some photos with it out of the house.

One other tip: The indicator pin chain should be supple and not bent. A stuck link or twist can make a precise adjustment difficult. You want both sides of the chain to ride smoothly and evenly over the radius on the axle nut tower. It helps to not tighten the indicator pin completely. There's no advantage to screwing it all the way in. Back it off just enough so the links will self level against the axle nut radius.

browngw 04-23-19 12:36 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20897152)
best to stick with the factory design.
Sheldon Brown says:
  • The headset uses 25 5/32 inch loose bearing balls in each race.

Always have used 25 although have found older bikes with less. They do often try to escape and make a run for it! Just bought 100 5/32" from the LBS for $4.98. Also got 100 1/4" for $4.98, seems like a better deal.

gster 04-23-19 01:08 PM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 20897399)
Always have used 25 although have found older bikes with less. They do often try to escape and make a run for it! Just bought 100 5/32" from the LBS for $4.98. Also got 100 1/4" for $4.98, seems like a better deal.

You can't blame them. They've been cooped up for a long time.


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