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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

pastorbobnlnh 11-16-22 09:51 PM


Originally Posted by alexihnen (Post 22712543)
Does anyone have a source for narrow (14mm) tubular gluing tape? Everything I see is wider, but I think for vintage rims it needs to be no wider than 14mm. I’m looking for a shop size roll - for maybe 12 wheelsets.

I've been using Effetto Mariposa Carogna tape in the small 16mm wide shop rolls on my vintage rims with no issues. I love this product.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...86bea53bd1.jpg
24mm Vittoria mounted to Faimme Yellow Label rim with 16mm gluing tape.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c7da4bbf6e.jpg
Ditto

alexihnen 11-17-22 09:54 AM

Thanks. Do you know your rim measurement? When I checked quickly with calipers it seemed that 16mm would be too wide but it looks like it works just fine for you.

SwimmerMike 11-17-22 11:10 AM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 22712946)
I've been using Effetto Mariposa Carogna tape in the small 16mm wide shop rolls on my vintage rims with no issues. I love this product.

I use the same tape on my bikes using a wide assortment of rims and tire sizes. Never had an issue.

Drillium Dude 11-21-22 02:20 PM

An argument against vintage tubulars:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...33e5586c19.png

Total lifetime miles: 3

The more I look at the tread and tube, and think about what had occurred just a minute before, I believe the casing failed due to age after passing over a small piece of gravel. It shot out from the back wheel to my right. Less than a minute later: bang! There is a small nick in the rubber in the center of the blown-out portion, just to the right of the tread's center, and - tellingly - there's also a small dent in the tube at the same location, from which the tube itself then split in three directions.

Pretty sure a modern casing wouldn't have done this over a small piece of gravel. Just ordered a pair of Challenge Stradas that are 330tpi casings and will accept up to 175psi (just in case). Too bad I won't have them in time for Thursday's Turkey Ride up South Mountain :(

Oh, well, I'll give the 42/26 combo a go, anyway...

DD

Fredo76 11-21-22 06:20 PM


Originally Posted by Drillium Dude (Post 22717336)
An argument against vintage tubulars:
...
Pretty sure a modern casing wouldn't have done this over a small piece of gravel.

When I removed the 40+year-old sew-ups from my two old sets of wheels, I just tossed them. I did put a couple hundred miles on my 35-year-old clinchers (Specialized Turbo R) with no incidents before retiring them for wider ones, but they have a Kevlar casing. All tubular wheels have new sew-ups now - Continental Giro 25mm and Vittoria Corsa Control in 28mm and 30mm. They only go to 115psi or so

I'd be pretty leery of decades-old cottons or silks. Glad you weren't damaged aside from the tire.

Drillium Dude 11-29-22 09:52 PM

PSA:

If you are considering purchasing either Challenge Elites or Stradas from online retailers (either tire suppliers or Ebay sellers), don't rely on the ad copy or stock photos regarding pressure ratings. Three times now I've ordered Elites and Stradas which claimed 115 to 175psi ratings, and three times I've received tires with a range of 75 to 105psi. What a silly-low maximum pressure - my open tubulars go up to 145psi.

Ask the seller to give the pressure rating off the actual item, or you may be sorry. My latest pair of Stradas had a tread separation in addition to having the much lower pressure range, and when I went looking for replacements, I queried a different seller: advertised as 115 to 175, but he just reported to me today the sidewall markings actually read 75 to 105. Makes me wonder if the high pressure range actually ever existed!

For transparency: the first pair I got with this disparity came from Pro Bike Kit. The next two sets have come from two separate sellers on Ebay. Because of this issue, and the tread separation concern, I can no longer consider Challenge tires for use.

As soon as my money is refunded, a couple Veloflex Pro Tours will be on the way.

DD

smontanaro 11-30-22 04:57 AM

Drillium Dude I saw the picture of the separated tread. Was that sad received or after inflation? Challenge tubulars have been off my list for several years because if tread separation. The Veloflex Pro Tour is a good choice.

pastorbobnlnh 11-30-22 06:45 AM

Drillium Dude , I don't mean to question your need, desire, or preference for high PSIs, but please enlighten me.

I ask because I'm currently running on the road bikes I'm riding regularly:
  1. 24mm Tufo tubular-clinchers at 80-85 psi rear and 70-75 psi front.
  2. 25mm Vittoria Rally tubulars at 75-80 psi rear and 65-70 psi front.
  3. 24mm Vittoria Corsa tubulars at 80-85 psi rear and 70-75 psi front.
  4. 28mm Schwalbe One tubulars at 70-80 psi rear and 60-70 psi front.
Currently I'm tipping the scales at about 220lbs and I find the ride more comfortable and the difference in overall average speed on the same routes even if I inflate to approximately 100 psi.

Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

smontanaro 11-30-22 09:27 AM

Not sure about Drillium Dude but when stretching or gluing tubulars I tend to pump them up pretty high, at least 100psi. When riding, my pressures are similar to pastorbobnlnh's.

squirtdad 11-30-22 12:56 PM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 22725081)
Drillium Dude , I don't mean to question your need, desire, or preference for high PSIs, but please enlighten me.

I ask because I'm currently running on the road bikes I'm riding regularly:
  1. 24mm Tufo tubular-clinchers at 80-85 psi rear and 70-75 psi front.
  2. 25mm Vittoria Rally tubulars at 75-80 psi rear and 65-70 psi front.
  3. 24mm Vittoria Corsa tubulars at 80-85 psi rear and 70-75 psi front.
  4. 28mm Schwalbe One tubulars at 70-80 psi rear and 60-70 psi front.
Currently I'm tipping the scales at about 220lbs and I find the ride more comfortable and the difference in overall average speed on the same routes even if I inflate to approximately 100 psi.

Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

FWIW my experience is way less than Drillium Dude or others here, but I tend to higher pressures. in general. I am at 220 or so down from 245

the best ride, feel hands down ever were on Challenge Elite 25 mm at 130 psi on mavic gel 330 rims

I road my 30mm Vittoria Corsa Control at 105 or so

SJX426 11-30-22 01:44 PM

I am with @Drillium Dude on tire pressures. The favorite tires are the Vittoria Corsa G+ with 125F/135R Lower pressures have been tried but the ride is not as good IME. This is true for both clinchers and tubulars. There is an improved ride at the higher pressures.
Unfortunately, I am at about 205, but this was true when at 185.

My go to pressures when using clinchers was 100F/115R. Oh and these are 23-25 tires. Hard to fit much bigger on older Italian race steeds.

A Challege Elite with a puncture is waiting for me to patch. The performance of these tires does not compare to the Corsa G+. It may something to do with TPI of 220 vs 320, the lower pressure range of 75-105 vs 100-175, and/or the single vs multiple rubber compounds on the tread. This whole perspective may be skewed by the fact the front wheel with the Challenge tire is radial spoked vs 3x supporting the Corsa G+. Not completely a fair comparison. Need to fix that! Different rims too. Campy Strada with semi aero profile vs Nemesis.

My impression is the Challenge is not as robust and not in the same performance range.

Between speed and comfort, I will take both. During 2017 nearly 4k miles was done commuting on a variety of bikes from the Pinarello to the MTB (with/ithout air fork and 2.1 inch tires) and fixed. Avg speed didn't' really very much over 11 one-way miles.

Drillium Dude 11-30-22 01:50 PM


Originally Posted by smontanaro (Post 22725046)

I saw the picture of the separated tread. Was that sad received or after inflation?

Interesting question, because it was there before inflation - but when I put the tires on the rims to see if there were any leaks, the tread laid down to the point I couldn't peel it up without getting a nail underneath it. Still wouldn't trust it but for a spare; may get some liquid latex along with some rubber cement if the seller tells me to keep 'em (so far, no word back on that).

Hoping I can source the Pro Tour Race version, with gumwalls, without registering on a site. I did that once, with Pro Bike Kit, and 2 years later I still get daily alerts. Irritating :mad:

DD

Drillium Dude 11-30-22 02:02 PM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 22725081)
Drillium Dude , I don't mean to question your need, desire, or preference for high PSIs, but please enlighten me.

I ask because I'm currently running on the road bikes I'm riding regularly:
  1. 24mm Tufo tubular-clinchers at 80-85 psi rear and 70-75 psi front.
  2. 25mm Vittoria Rally tubulars at 75-80 psi rear and 65-70 psi front.
  3. 24mm Vittoria Corsa tubulars at 80-85 psi rear and 70-75 psi front.
  4. 28mm Schwalbe One tubulars at 70-80 psi rear and 60-70 psi front.
Currently I'm tipping the scales at about 220lbs and I find the ride more comfortable and the difference in overall average speed on the same routes even if I inflate to approximately 100 psi.

Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

My weight fluctuates between 180 and 195, but I don't know that it has any bearing on my 'ride requirements'. My riding style demands a planted rear end, and a front end I can lean on, plus I take a lot of feedback from the road surface into consideration when I make moves. All of this requires a hard-blown set of tires with which to transfer the info to my hands, feet, and butt. Sounds funny, but it's true. Low pressures induce a feeling like being on a pogo stick, and the feedback is mushy and inconsistent; I cant plant the rear end, much less do anything with precision regarding the front end, with tires performing with too much bounce/rebound.

High pressures do allow the occasional skipping of the rear or front tire, but again, feedback is such that I know when it's going to happen, and reflexes compensate. Like catching a moment of oversteer in a car.

The Alpina was fitted (unknowingly) with the aforementioned Elites, and taken up to 115psi, which was still squishy and ponderous-feeling, when someone here noted the sidewalls said the pressure was limited to 105psi. First time I noticed the rating didn't match the ad copy, and I couldn't imagine the feeling if I were to let out 10psi.

Anyway, those are still on the bike, but I didn't bring it with me and it won't see much use (now a zero bike in WA), for good reason. The 'cushy ride' many describe when running tubulars at lower pressures simply translates into 'bouncing' for me and my sensitive contact points. I know I'm an outlier :)

DD

pastorbobnlnh 11-30-22 09:03 PM

SJX426 426 and Drillium Dude thank you for your replies. :thumb: I need to pump up my tires harder and check out the difference in the ride quality.

SJX426 12-01-22 06:50 AM

@Drillium Dude - great articulation of the mechanics of the ride characteristics! I concucr. @pastorbobnlnh - I have gone as high as 140F/145R when it started getting too rough for me. I really like my Silca floor pump and since fixing the check valve it is easier to use, however, getting to 145 is a challenge at my age. I usually use my air compressor to get me to 100+ and take it from there.

Drillium Dude 12-01-22 07:09 PM

Since I don't want the hassle of more messages in my inbox from retailers I'll likely only buy from once or twice, I stuck with Ebay and chose a pair of Vittoria Corsa Control G 2.0s. I note a lot of members seem to like the Corsa series in clinchers, and probably some are using the tubulars, too. After watching a review video by a real person, I think a pair of these is just the ticket for the high pressure and durability I seek.

Hopefully these arrive quickly, and I can get them on early next week - the Davidson is in serious need of the final check-ride to determine if all is indeed 100% back to normal after the 'love tap'.

DD

Drillium Dude 12-05-22 09:16 PM

Tires arrived today! Just shy of $200 for three Corsa Control G 2.0s. Originally that was the cost of two, shipped, but a rep at Maine Cycles (the Ebay retailer I got them from) told me they had 3 left, two had 'discolored sidewalls', and the third was perfect. After all the issues lately in trying to procure just a single pair of good, modern tubulars, I asked if I could get a pic or two, just in case. He obliged. I really couldn't make out any difference in the pics, and said so, but he held to his original offer: because two were discolored, and only one was unmarked, he tossed in the third free of charge.

These tires feel quality, for real. Nice, thick tread, sidewalls supple, and liberally coated with latex or whatever syn stuff they use today. And, best of all, the embossed tire pressure info (on the rubber tread) and the label both state the 25mm version can take pressures all the way up to 175 psi. Whoo-hoo!

A couple pics - not taped yet, just stretching:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...42501b0e_h.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...16cfca3f_h.jpg

DD

gkamieneski 12-05-22 09:34 PM

Guess Iím surprised you use tape and not old school Mastic, especially with those pressures.

79pmooney 12-05-22 09:46 PM


Originally Posted by Drillium Dude (Post 22730761)
Tires arrived today! Just shy of $200 for three Corsa Control G 2.0s. Originally that was the cost of two, shipped, but a rep at Maine Cycles (the Ebay retailer I got them from) told me they had 3 left, two had 'discolored sidewalls', and the third was perfect. After all the issues lately in trying to procure just a single pair of good, modern tubulars, I asked if I could get a pic or two, just in case. He obliged. I really couldn't make out any difference in the pics, and said so, but he held to his original offer: because two were discolored, and only one was unmarked, he tossed in the third free of charge.

These tires feel quality, for real. Nice, thick tread, sidewalls supple, and liberally coated with latex or whatever syn stuff they use today. And, best of all, the embossed tire pressure info (on the rubber tread) and the label both state the 25mm version can take pressures all the way up to 175 psi. Whoo-hoo!

A couple pics - not taped yet, just stretching:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...42501b0e_h.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...16cfca3f_h.jpg

DD

I rode Cycle Oregon on the 28c Corsa G+ tubs. What a ride! And yes, quality tires! Haven't felt that level of confidence downhill on roads I'd never seen before in many years! No 25 yo testosterone levels needed. I found two goatheads at rest stops. First was a pump and ride 3+ miles slow leak. Second I saw before I took off. I had the mechanics put an ounce of their Bontranger sealant in and both tires have been issue free since.

I love that ribbed thread. I rode many ribbed thread training/club race ribbed treads back in my racing days and the decade after. Took that tread completely for granted. Then it disappeared for decades. Vittoria brought it back on the Corsas. First ribbed tread ride back, I had to ride off the pavement edge on a two lane county road to allow a 70 mph passing Camaro to go by. Got handed the choice of riding into a ditch or climbing back onto the pavement in sand. I choose the pavement, The tires just climbed up through the sand, no big deal. Thank you, thank you, thank you! (and "oh yeah,that ribbed tread always was the best for climbing out of cracks, ruts ... They went a long ways to making those skinny tires ride-able on not very good New England roads.)

Drillium Dude 12-06-22 12:59 AM


Originally Posted by gkamieneski (Post 22730774)
Guess Iím surprised you use tape and not old school Mastic, especially with those pressures.

Even back in the mid-90s, when I first rode tubulars, I went with the tape method. Good enough for Monty Young of Condor Cycles, good enough for me. Plus, I'd have to think the higher pressure would help ensure the bond betwixt tire and rim.

Never had one roll or creep yet. Pretty sure I can keep that record going, since I'll be using the same tried-and-true materials and methods.

DD

Drillium Dude 12-06-22 01:09 AM


Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 22730782)
I rode Cycle Oregon on the 28c Corsa G+ tubs. What a ride! And yes, quality tires! Haven't felt that level of confidence downhill on roads I'd never seen before in many years! No 25 yo testosterone levels needed. I found two goatheads at rest stops. First was a pump and ride 3+ miles slow leak. Second I saw before I took off. I had the mechanics put an ounce of their Bontranger sealant in and both tires have been issue free since.

I love that ribbed thread. I rode many ribbed thread training/club race ribbed treads back in my racing days and the decade after. Took that tread completely for granted. Then it disappeared for decades. Vittoria brought it back on the Corsas. First ribbed tread ride back, I had to ride off the pavement edge on a two lane county road to allow a 70 mph passing Camaro to go by. Got handed the choice of riding into a ditch or climbing back onto the pavement in sand. I choose the pavement, The tires just climbed up through the sand, no big deal. Thank you, thank you, thank you! (and "oh yeah,that ribbed tread always was the best for climbing out of cracks, ruts ... They went a long ways to making those skinny tires ride-able on not very good New England roads.)

This is good news - in particular, the praises sung regarding the ribbed portion of the tread. Hand on heart, I was never a fan of the look, particularly the straight-up Corsas with grooves across the entire width. But this one, with the herringbone tread edges, is a nice mixture of the two. The channels have me wondering if they'll be magnets for little pieces to get stuck in, so at the conclusion of each ride I'll religiously look closely at this feature. Hearing your experience with the tread has me looking forward to the ride, and I'm going to run without sealant until the same happens to me, then give it a go since you've proved that to be an option. Plus, I have a free spare to pop on in any case :)

But, really, the main takeaway in handling/mounting them was that they are very well-made, and although they don't seem to weigh all that much, they feel substantial. Does that make sense?

DD

Robvolz 12-06-22 02:27 AM

OK, vittoria cement is much sloppier than Clement cement.

I made a mess. All over the sidewalls. What I don't want to do is use some chemical that will weaken the structural element and cause them to blow out earlier than normal.

What would you use to clean off too much cement? Thinner? Goo-Gone? Steel Wool? or just live with it?

Thanks
Robert

pastorbobnlnh 12-06-22 12:58 PM


Originally Posted by Robvolz (Post 22730889)
OK, vittoria cement is much sloppier than Clement cement.

I made a mess. All over the sidewalls. What I don't want to do is use some chemical that will weaken the structural element and cause them to blow out earlier than normal.

What would you use to clean off too much cement? Thinner? Goo-Gone? Steel Wool? or just live with it?

Thanks
Robert

You're back from your hacienda.

Such a great argument to use tape instead of glue.

I'd worry that anything which can remove the glue can also compromise and the integrity of the sidewall. I believe you will need to live with it.

Drillium Dude , great deal on great looking Vittorias which can withstand your deep-sea pressures. Such a submariner! ;)

smontanaro 12-06-22 02:28 PM


Originally Posted by Robvolz (Post 22730889)
OK, vittoria cement is much sloppier than Clement cement.

I made a mess. All over the sidewalls. What I don't want to do is use some chemical that will weaken the structural element and cause them to blow out earlier than normal.

What would you use to clean off too much cement?

I've no comment on the clean-up. I try not to get too messy. I don't recall if you said how you applied glue, but I'll summarize how I do it without any mess.
  • It goes without saying that the tires must already be stretched.
  • I use effectively disposable acid/welding/paste brushes ó available at your local big box home center (or Amazon)
  • I load up the brush reasonably well. On the rim (mounted in my truing stand), I tend to attack four or five spaces at once (never in the eyelets! ó a pox on people who do that). Dab, dab, dab, dab, then work back over the four spots with the brush to cover edge-to-edge. A bit of light pressure and the brush fans out perfectly.
  • I inflate the tire a bit, just enough to hold its shape, stand it on the workbench and lean it against the pegboard. Again, load the brush up, then drag down the center of the base tape and feather out to the edges at an angle (like a chevron). The first coat soaks up a bunch more glue than the second.
I won't comment much on how many coats of glue to use or the spacing between coats. I generally apply two to new tires (that first coat pretty much disappears). Beyond that, I've tried any number of possible glue coats and set times. It's all good as far as I can tell. While you wait for the glue job to dry after mounting the tire, pump it well up (100psi minimum). The base tape must dip all the way down into the depression in the rim to get full contact from edge to edge. I'm never in much of a hurry, so I generally let it sit like that for a day or two before lowering the inflation to riding pressure.

Robvolz 12-06-22 02:53 PM

Thank you kindly for the tips.

Start with a stand! beats fumbling like I do. Hell, and old fork set in a bucket of sand would work.

I did watch the YouTube videos and did the 2 day process. but, instead of ruining a quality paint brush, and it was too late to hit dollar tree for sponge brushes, I placed a rubber glove on my hand and basically finger painted.

Excess on the rim wasn't an issue, a dab of paint remover took it off. The tire, even though mostly inflated was a different scenario. It got sloppy.

I will take your words to heed and start properly prepared.


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