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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

SJX426 03-27-18 08:39 AM

@Lazyass - You may want to consider spending slightly more and getting significantly more performance. https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...g-tubular-2016

Lazyass 03-27-18 08:58 AM


Originally Posted by SJX426 (Post 20247788)
@Lazyass - You may want to consider spending slightly more and getting significantly more performance. https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...g-tubular-2016

I kind of set a price limit on myself at $60-some odd per tire because I ride up to 800 miles a month. I go through those super soft tires fast and with tubulars it gets expensive. Not to mention I prefer butyl tubes and the high end ones come with latex. I don't really like the Conti Sprinters. The Tufo's might be be an option but I have no experience with that brand, I don't know why but they've never interested me.

SJX426 03-27-18 09:18 AM


Originally Posted by Lazyass (Post 20247829)
I kind of set a price limit on myself at $60-some odd per tire because I ride up to 800 miles a month. I go through those super soft tires fast and with tubulars it gets expensive. Not to mention I prefer butyl tubes and the high end ones come with latex. I don't really like the Conti Sprinters. The Tufo's might be be an option but I have no experience with that brand, I don't know why but they've never interested me.

I have the same limitations placed on myself. I have the clincher version and just felt they were significantly different from the Michelin Pro 2's and Specialized high end tires. They were on sale at the time and now I plan on getting tubular versions next. In the process of slowly moving my "race" bikes to tubulars with clincher back ups.

DiabloScott 03-27-18 09:47 AM


Originally Posted by Lazyass (Post 20247829)
I kind of set a price limit on myself at $60-some odd per tire because I ride up to 800 miles a month. I go through those super soft tires fast and with tubulars it gets expensive.


I've been really lucky with flats on my Pave tubulars so I decided it was OK to buy up a whole bunch of them when I noticed they were being discontinued... and will probably spring for Tire Alert repairs when the inevitable happens.

The Yellow Jersey tires aren't bad but they don't really give that tubular road feel.


I ride up to 800 miles a month
Wow... kudos.

Lazyass 03-28-18 05:14 PM

I have a question to throw out. I'm switching my modern bike to tubulars and the rims are 22mm wide. Does anyone foresee a problem with 22mm tires? I can buy Conti Sprinter 22's for less than $40.

The last time I ran 22mm tubulars I had narrower rims, 20mm I think, maybe 19. Hard to remember, that was like the early 90's. But I know they weren't 22mm wide.

FYI these are the rims. They're actually pretty nice. I bought a wheelset with 6700 hubs and DT Comp spokes on clearance from them for less than $200.

Pure Tubular 23x22mm 380g

crank_addict 03-28-18 08:34 PM


Originally Posted by Lazyass (Post 20247829)
I kind of set a price limit on myself at $60-some odd per tire because I ride up to 800 miles a month. I go through those super soft tires fast and with tubulars it gets expensive. Not to mention I prefer butyl tubes and the high end ones come with latex. I don't really like the Conti Sprinters. The Tufo's might be be an option but I have no experience with that brand, I don't know why but they've never interested me.

Agree on the budget Cont. Sprinters. Hit or miss, base tapes are slapped on whippy look, etc.. Becomes very much justifiable to skip two lunch outings and spend the extra for better quality.

As for Tufo, the S33 Pro tubular in both available width are consistent in quality, always seem as if they were spin tested and machined by lathe. Pretty hard sidewall, bit lacking on comfort and roll resistance. There's definitely faster rubber out there but for longevity and smooth rollers out of the wrapper, they're worth it for budget minded / trainers. I've acquired them low as $14 each - sale.

Then for clincher's only, I've also found the S33 Pro 'tubular' for CLINCHER exceptional in longevity. This thread is not really for the subject of tubulars, but this product is on their own island.

neg for the nascar / billboard Tufo sidewall logo's

Ghrumpy 03-29-18 12:09 AM


Originally Posted by crank_addict (Post 20247124)
You know when Taiwan Vittoria has gone down the tubes when they still label as 28"

Um, nope. 28" is still the correct and traditional size callout for standard road/track tubulars. Tufo, Challenge, Dugast, Continental and Veloflex use that designation as well. Granted, it might seem a little crazy to talk about a 28" tire these days that uses a smaller rim than a 27", but bigger than a 27.5", and is actually the same diameter as a 29", but you can blame society for that. The 28" designation has been around longer than all the others combined.
The current callout follows the ETRTO tire size designation standard format. It avoids using the BSD found in clincher sizes, because tubulars have no beads. And calling it 28 instead of 622 makes clear that there is a distinction between clincher and tubular tires in case you couldn't tell. The ETRTO is all about reducing confusion in tire size callouts.

Not only it it correct to call tubulars 28", it is, in fact, entirely incorrect to call a tubular "700C." That's always and only been correctly a clincher size callout. That said, French tire makes have in the past and still occasionally refer to their tubulars as "700" (without the C,) which is a reasonable metric approximation to 28".

Wileyone 03-29-18 06:06 AM

Schwalbe 1's might be an option for some. They have Butyl liners and can be found on Sale. They don't ride as nice as the Vitoria Corsa's I have but you don't have to pump them up "Daily".
I have been checking the UK sites lately and prices seemed to have risen lately.

Lazyass 03-29-18 07:13 AM

What do you all think about this option? Vredestein FRECCIA Pro TriComp 23c. I can get them for $42.

https://www.vredestein.co.uk/bicycle...t/0/race/20823

DiabloScott 03-29-18 07:33 AM


Originally Posted by Ghrumpy (Post 20251462)
Um, nope. 28" is still the correct and traditional size callout for standard road/track tubulars. Tufo, Challenge, Dugast, Continental and Veloflex use that designation as well. Granted, it might seem a little crazy to talk about a 28" tire these days that uses a smaller rim than a 27", but bigger than a 27.5", and is actually the same diameter as a 29", but you can blame society for that. The 28" designation has been around longer than all the others combined.
The current callout follows the ETRTO tire size designation standard format. It avoids using the BSD found in clincher sizes, because tubulars have no beads. And calling it 28 instead of 622 makes clear that there is a distinction between clincher and tubular tires in case you couldn't tell. The ETRTO is all about reducing confusion in tire size callouts.

Not only it it correct to call tubulars 28", it is, in fact, entirely incorrect to call a tubular "700C." That's always and only been correctly a clincher size callout. That said, French tire makes have in the past and still occasionally refer to their tubulars as "700" (without the C,) which is a reasonable metric approximation to 28".

Yup. Crazy and confusing, not wrong. But no one is confused if I say "700c tubulars"


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/YV...=w1046-h588-no

28" diameter, 27mm wide... get used to it.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Ta...=w1046-h588-no

Ghrumpy 03-29-18 11:57 AM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 20251763)
Yup. Crazy and confusing, not wrong. But no one is confused if I say "700c tubulars"

Depends entirely on your definition of "wrong."
Your definition is functional. If you can walk into a store and get what you need by calling it a "round rubber thingy that holds air" then good for you. Nothing "wrong" with that. Language is flexible and adaptable that way. @crank_addict is of the opinion that calling a tubular 28" is "wrong," perhaps because if you walk into a bike shop and ask for a 28" tubular tire they might not know what you mean (even though it's printed right on the box and/or the tire in almost every case.)

My definition of "wrong" is technical. It's based on the origins of the terms, their historical use, and what appears to be current ETRTO usage. Historically, it's "wrong" because the original British clincher tire size system did not include tubular tire sizes. Tubulars and single-tube tires were indeed 28" diameter, but the industry fairly quickly settled on one standard 28" tubular rim size, not four.

That was the case by the time the French adopted the British tire sizing system and overlaid it with metric system measurements. As I said before, 700mm is a reasonably close approximation of the 28" British size (28"=711mm.) Tubular tires were never part of that scheme either; there was no such thing as a 700A or 700B tubular rim or tire. There was one "700" tubular size, just as there was one 28" tubular size*. It's illogical to call a tubular 700C unless there is also an A and a B to choose from.

I understand the desire to simplify the obsolete and complicated tire size schemes. If that's what you want to do, calling a tubular 700C is not helping. It sounds technically accurate, but it's actually not. Better just to forgo using the obsolete French callouts altogether and use the ETRTO sizes. For clinchers, it's xx-622. For tubulars, it's xx-28".



*There have been some oddball tubular sizes over the years. I've got two different size nominal 24" tubular rims, and Cinelli made frames around what they called their "ridotto" wheel size that was in between 28" and 26". But the original sizes have been standard since the 1890s. These oddballs are much later additions to the mix.
There have also been attempts to "correct" tubular tire size callouts. Schwinn Paramount catalogs of the '60s list "27 inch" tubulars as the stock tire size, but that's because that's closer to the actual mounted wheel and tire diameter. It's the same size rim and tire as what had previously been called 28". Probably led to more confusion when a rider tried to install his 27" clincher wheelset only to find the brakes had to be adjusted to the different rim diameter.

DiabloScott 03-29-18 01:18 PM


Originally Posted by Ghrumpy (Post 20252240)
Depends entirely on your definition of "wrong."
Your definition is functional.

Dude, I was agreeing with you, mostly. And I appreciate your sharing your knowledge of the history here.

28" is not wrong but is confusing.
700c Tubular is wrong but not confusing.
And by "confusing" I mean people come in here and ask because they think they have something other than a "normal" tubular.


https://www.euroasiaimports.com/prod...175_detail.jpg

And the labeling is more confusing than even being discussed here. Continental has 700/28/622 tubular tires (same size) labeled differently.

https://static.biketiresdirect.com/p...0/costr4-1.jpg

https://static.biketiresdirect.com/p...0/costs3-1.jpg

squirtdad 03-30-18 10:31 AM


Originally Posted by Lazyass (Post 20250915)
I have a question to throw out. I'm switching my modern bike to tubulars and the rims are 22mm wide. Does anyone foresee a problem with 22mm tires? I can buy Conti Sprinter 22's for less than $40.

The last time I ran 22mm tubulars I had narrower rims, 20mm I think, maybe 19. Hard to remember, that was like the early 90's. But I know they weren't 22mm wide.

FYI these are the rims. They're actually pretty nice. I bought a wheelset with 6700 hubs and DT Comp spokes on clearance from them for less than $200.

Pure Tubular 23x22mm 380g

thanks for that link....am seeing another wheelset in my future

Lazyass 03-30-18 10:36 AM


Originally Posted by squirtdad (Post 20254125)
thanks for that link....am seeing another wheelset in my future

Here's a link for their discount codes. I had the wheels on my doorstep three days after I ordered them.

http://bicyclewheelwarehouse.com/Coupons.html

DiabloScott 03-30-18 11:07 AM


Originally Posted by Lazyass (Post 20250915)
I have a question to throw out. I'm switching my modern bike to tubulars and the rims are 22mm wide. Does anyone foresee a problem with 22mm tires? I can buy Conti Sprinter 22's for less than $40.

The last time I ran 22mm tubulars I had narrower rims, 20mm I think, maybe 19. Hard to remember, that was like the early 90's. But I know they weren't 22mm wide.

The concern of course would be if the tire doesn't bond all the way to the edge of the rim.

HED offers this guideline:


23mm C2 tubular rim recommended tire width: 20mm+
- so it seems 22 on 22 wouldn't be a problem (at least for HED's rim shape)

Lazyass 03-30-18 01:24 PM

Ended up ordering the Vredestein Freccia Tricomp 23's. Bought three for $125. They have latex tubes but should be pretty supple and durable. Seems like a good everyday tire that isn't too heavy.

Lazyass 04-02-18 10:19 AM

Already received my Vredestein's and, holy cow, they must be the easiest tubulars in history to mount. Need no prestretching at all.

79pmooney 04-02-18 10:37 AM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 20251763)
Yup. Crazy and confusing, not wrong. But no one is confused if I say "700c tubulars"


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/YV...=w1046-h588-no

28" diameter, 27mm wide... get used to it.

I probably will always think "700c" as in the rim braking diameter and stressing that these wheels are interchangeable with 700c clinchers. I can live with being corrected for the next 20 years.

Scott, those orange tires remind me of one of my big racing scares. My first "real" race, the 1976 Maine International. 105 miles, 110 starters, pouring rain. My tires were orange treaded Vittoria ribbed tread cotton training tires. Fun tires. Fast for their weight and cost. So the race was rather uneventful for the first 4 hours outside of being the wettest experience this body (and any bike I have ever ridden) has ever seen. Final miles, hills are done and the pace is picking up. We are using all of the right lanes of a divided road; the median being gently cobbles and about an inch below the pavement surface. I am on the left side of the road, next to that median. Somebody gets his rear wheel too close to me and I ride off onto the median. I'm immediately on a mild jackhammer. Look to get back onto the roadway and remember I am riding those orange tread tires. Slippery when wet! And I am going to have to climb that inch or so back on the pavement on those tires. Pushing off from slippery cobbles!

I waited until there was a little room up on the road and went for it. Tires climbed up, no problem. Took much longer to get my heart out of my mouth.

Ben

DiabloScott 04-02-18 11:05 AM


Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 20259329)
Scott, those orange tires remind me of one of my big racing scares. My first "real" race, the 1976 Maine International. 105 miles, 110 starters, pouring rain. My tires were orange treaded Vittoria ribbed tread cotton training tires. Fun tires. Fast for their weight and cost. Slippery when wet!

Those orange Michelins came on a used wheelset I bought on eBay - I only ever used them as spares - makes it easy to remember you're riding a spare when it's orange... easy to remember you need to glue on a replacement and tuck the spare back under the saddle.

I remember some old sewups we used to call RedHeads... I think they were Clement - and they had the reputation of ... not being good on wet surfaces. I don't know why it is, but Continental Sprinters used to come in orange and they were fine in the rain. Not as good as my Pave's though... I just love those 27mm green guys.

Ghrumpy 04-02-18 03:53 PM


Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 20259329)
I probably will always think "700c" as in the rim braking diameter and stressing that these wheels are interchangeable with 700c clinchers. I can live with being corrected for the next 20 years.

If all you want to remember is that it interchanges with a tubular, then sure, that works. But you could call it anything ("Eddy size" for example) and it would still work. The term "700C" gives you no absolute or even particularly meaningful numbers to work from or towards. Of course it is also true that 28" means nothing more in terms of modern tubular sizing. It's just that, as I said, that's been the nominal size since the 1890s.

When you understand where the 700C term and dimensions come from, then you realize that that designation has no particular connection with the rim size. And you can't work backwards from that number to get to the rim's size even if you know what C means. (OTOH, if you know the British system it's based on, you can derive the rim size easily.)

It seems no more difficult to me to remember that road/track 28" is equivalent to 700C than it is to remember that 24" = 622mm, or even that 29er is the same mountain bike size (and frankly closer to the original tire size than current road tires are.) So why not be correct?

RobbieTunes 04-02-18 07:05 PM

Um.....
 
Vise the drill. Works better.


Originally Posted by Peugeotlover (Post 20244041)
When you start thinking about it, there is a very quick way to get the old glue off.
If the have a vice to hold the wheel, it is even quicker (place wheel between cushioning agents- like rags or styrofoam or wood strips, etc).
Wear heavy gloves so you don't rip apart your hands.
You can get the wheel looking like new in 10 minutes.


crank_addict 04-02-18 09:23 PM

Panaracer Practice / width 22's tan-black

I'll find out soon as already have a bulk qty. inbound but whats the real experience one can expect?

Got them so absurd cheap with the goal to use on very limited use bikes. Though I feel might be short changing the tubular 'greatness' of ride and performance. Tufo S33 pro / butyl's get the job done for consistency and budget ride. Hoping the Panaracer Practice is a step towards a better rider than stiff sidewalled Tufo. Being they were so low cost, I really don't care if they are less puncture prone.

Lazyass 04-03-18 03:24 AM

I was going to buy some Tufo sealant to carry in my jersey pocket because I liked that it came with a valve core remover. Then I somehow came across a link where I learned that a chain tool will remove it. So I tried it with chainbreaker on my Crankbros multi tool and it fits perfect. 30 years on the road and I never knew that. So I bought a little bottle of Stan's way cheaper.

smontanaro 04-03-18 03:31 AM

4.5mm ignition wrench always worked for me. I have a huge stash of ignition wrenches (inch sizes inherited from my dad, metric stuff accumulated over the years) and no longer work on cars, so that particular wrench has been highlighted with a fuscia magic marker so I can readily find it when I need to top up the Stans. (Hmmm... I no longer work on cars. Still, if we're putting this stuff in our tires and tubes, shouldn't valve cores have built-in dipsticks so we can measure the fluid level?)

bentaxle 04-03-18 12:29 PM


Originally Posted by Lazyass (Post 20260966)
I was going to buy some Tufo sealant to carry in my jersey pocket because I liked that it came with a valve core remover. Then I somehow came across a link where I learned that a chain tool will remove it. So I tried it with chainbreaker on my Crankbros multi tool and it fits perfect. 30 years on the road and I never knew that. So I bought a little bottle of Stan's way cheaper.

I think Stan's is better sealant as well. It seems to handle punctures better and lasts longer, too.

On a separate but related note, there are those punctures that are just a bit too big for the sealant to work. Of course, sealant won't work with a true gash. But a slightly too big hole will pump up most of the way, and then blow out sealant when you finally get to the pressure you want. I've tried "plugging" such a hole by using a thin rubber band, stuffing the cut end of the rubber band through the puncture with a tooth pick. With a few millimeters of rubber band inside and outside of the tire, the plug can now allow the tire to be pumped up to pressure.

Of course, I've also pushed my luck and have had the "plug" blown out when I get up to full pressure. But it's something I try before throwing away a Tufo tire that still has a lot of tread, but happened to get a small puncture that is just a bit too big for Stan's sealant.

Lazyass 04-03-18 01:50 PM


Originally Posted by bentaxle (Post 20261941)
I think Stan's is better sealant as well. It seems to handle punctures better and lasts longer, too.

On a separate but related note, there are those punctures that are just a bit too big for the sealant to work. Of course, sealant won't work with a true gash. But a slightly too big hole will pump up most of the way, and then blow out sealant when you finally get to the pressure you want. I've tried "plugging" such a hole by using a thin rubber band, stuffing the cut end of the rubber band through the puncture with a tooth pick. With a few millimeters of rubber band inside and outside of the tire, the plug can now allow the tire to be pumped up to pressure.

Of course, I've also pushed my luck and have had the "plug" blown out when I get up to full pressure. But it's something I try before throwing away a Tufo tire that still has a lot of tread, but happened to get a small puncture that is just a bit too big for Stan's sealant.

I'm not too worried. My last flat tire was four years ago, and I ride 5-6 days a week on average. I live in the country with little traffic so my roads are pretty clean. Back home in DFW I would puncture on almost a weekly basis. I carry a spare tubular so I don't even really need the sealant. But I'll carry it along if it doesn't make my jersey sag too much in the back.

daviddavieboy 04-04-18 07:13 AM


Originally Posted by bentaxle (Post 20261941)
I think Stan's is better sealant as well. It seems to handle punctures better and lasts longer, too. On a separate but related note, there are those punctures that are just a bit too big for the sealant to work. Of course, sealant won't work with a true gash. But a slightly too big hole will pump up most of the way, and then blow out sealant when you finally get to the pressure you want. I've tried "plugging" such a hole by using a thin rubber band, stuffing the cut end of the rubber band through the puncture with a tooth pick. With a few millimeters of rubber band inside and outside of the tire, the plug can now allow the tire to be pumped up to pressure.


I did my first commute yesterday this year and I knew I was in trouble from the start. Just before I left to go home, I noticed that I forgot to bring a spare. Then when I was checking the air I must have twisted the valve extension and it came off (I must have overtightened it when installed and it cracked at the threads). Then on the way home I got a flat about 5 miles from home and had to call the missus for a lift. I ran over something that took a chunk out of the tread that I am sure no sealant would have helped. On a bad note the tire was brand new but at least they were cheap.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/890/4...c310254e_c.jpg
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/792/4...d422ef98_c.jpg

Lazyass 04-04-18 08:40 AM

Carrying no spare tubular is like riding a clincher with no spare tube or patch kit.

jimmuller 04-04-18 09:11 AM


Originally Posted by Lazyass (Post 20263754)
Carrying no spare tubular is like riding a clincher with no spare tube or patch kit.

Ayup. I like to carry two spares if I'm going any great distance. Otherwise if I'm carrying only one and get a flat I have to worry as hard as I can so as not to get another.

Ghrumpy 04-04-18 11:02 AM


Originally Posted by bentaxle (Post 20261941)
I think Stan's is better sealant as well. It seems to handle punctures better and lasts longer, too.

On a separate but related note, there are those punctures that are just a bit too big for the sealant to work. Of course, sealant won't work with a true gash. But a slightly too big hole will pump up most of the way, and then blow out sealant when you finally get to the pressure you want. I've tried "plugging" such a hole by using a thin rubber band, stuffing the cut end of the rubber band through the puncture with a tooth pick. With a few millimeters of rubber band inside and outside of the tire, the plug can now allow the tire to be pumped up to pressure.

Of course, I've also pushed my luck and have had the "plug" blown out when I get up to full pressure. But it's something I try before throwing away a Tufo tire that still has a lot of tread, but happened to get a small puncture that is just a bit too big for Stan's sealant.

This is EXACTLY how single-tube tires were repaired BITD (well, one way.) Of course they didn't have a separate inner tube. But there were little rubber-band stretching and insertion tools made for this job. A dab of rubber cement, insert rubber band, release tension and remove tool. Having the band under tension lets the part inside the tube/tire "mushroom" a little to help keep it in place. Sealant and rubber cement won't really work together. But the sealant itself will probably seal better with the plug than without.

Not as often today, but inner tubes used to come bound with a little rubber band, made from the same black butyl as the tube itself (probably recycled ends from trimming before joining them.) That would make a perfect band for such repairs. But you might have to make your own now from a non-repairable tube. (If you want to use rubber cement, remove the internal talc and external mold-release wax completely before using or it won't stick at all.)


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