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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

Drillium Dude 03-04-23 04:58 PM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22819253)

Well, I mounted my first set of tubular tires. I did not get them as straight-as-an-arrow...

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b1e9fb965c.jpg

Were it me, I'd tear the rear off and re-center it - seriously. If you make a decently-committed hard left turn, I fear you're gonna be cornering on the sidewall - not good. For your own sake, center that tread!

The front looks pretty much okey-dokey.

DD

Classtime 03-04-23 05:17 PM

:lol: You canít be serious. 😇 Do over. You can do much much better. You have 4 months.

1989Pre 03-04-23 07:12 PM


Originally Posted by Drillium Dude (Post 22819310)
Were it me, I'd tear the rear off and re-center it - seriously. If you make a decently-committed hard left turn, I fear you're gonna be cornering on the sidewall - not good. For your own sake, center that tread!

The front looks pretty much okey-dokey.

DD

Okay, I will. Thank you very much.

1989Pre 03-04-23 07:13 PM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 22819328)
:lol: You canít be serious. 😇 Do over. You can do much much better. You have 4 months.

I struggled just to do this, and it was my second try. You have any tips on technique?

SJX426 03-04-23 07:25 PM

Minimize pressure, then lift and adjust evey 6 inches or less. Check for uniform exposure of the base tape side to side.

Classtime 03-04-23 07:31 PM

Yep. Go round and round, spin to check, make some adjustments, repeat til your satisfied.

1989Pre 03-04-23 07:55 PM


Originally Posted by SJX426 (Post 22819437)
Minimize pressure, then lift and adjust evey 6 inches or less. Check for uniform exposure of the base tape side to side.

I'll give it a shot, but this tire is so tight, I don't think it is going to budge at all. Lift with what?

1989Pre 03-04-23 07:56 PM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 22819443)
Yep. Go round and round, spin to check, make some adjustments, repeat til your satisfied.

Yeah, if there was no glue on the rim and tire, maybe I could do that! You seem to have no idea how adhesive this glue is. Nothing will budge, once the tire is on the rim. I am going to strip all the glue off the rim and going to tape. I've heard I can strip them with a hair-dryer and a rag. These results are entirely unacceptable. Now I see why my mechanic refused to do this job. Maybe I should have just used tape, instead of three coats of glue. It took me three (3) tire levers to get these tires on, because the glue I put on them seems to have prevented the tires from stretching onto the rim.

Classtime 03-05-23 12:54 AM

Don’t give up so easily. I’ve only used Continental and Vittoria glues. What are you using? And I don’t think tire irons can be used to good effect. You want to stretch as you go and if you run out of tire, start over and stretch more forcefully. Watch some Videos. I think Continentals are the tightest and yours don’t look like them.

Aardwolf 03-05-23 03:31 AM

I'm just going to mention tape:
  1. Put the tape on the rim with backing still on
  2. Put the tyre on and centre it (it's not stuck yet)
  3. Pull the backing tape off (from underneath the tyre, at the side).
  4. Inflate to hard and leave
Then again I haven't tried glue (yet).

1989Pre 03-05-23 04:55 AM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 22819618)
Donít give up so easily. Iíve only used Continental and Vittoria glues. What are you using? And I donít think tire irons can be used to good effect. You want to stretch as you go and if you run out of tire, start over and stretch more forcefully. Watch some Videos. I think Continentals are the tightest and yours donít look like them.

Thanks for the good word (it appears you've stopped laughing). I am using Continental glue. In videos I have seen, the tire fits almost effortlessly onto the rim. That's about how these Bontrager R4's were before I put glue on them (3 coats), letting the first two cure for 24 hours each, then the final coat just before mounting. I see what you are saying about centering as I go, but I anticipate a wrestling match. if I have to do this 5 or 6 times, will the glue remain effective?

Classtime 03-05-23 07:57 AM


The Continental guy is a monster and he needs to put his weight into it. You canít see they all are really leaning into it. I may have already mentioned that I have watched guys change a taped tubular and I would sooner go tubeless.

jingy2 03-05-23 08:29 AM

If I use fresh glue when ready to mount I end up with a big mess.
If let it sit for a while (30-45mins?) until it's just a little tacky I have better luck.
Some tires are just really tight, especially if they haven't been prestretched, and have to be wrestled on.
Jim in Mpls

MooneyBloke 03-05-23 08:57 AM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22819669)
Thanks for the good word (it appears you've stopped laughing). I am using Continental glue. In videos I have seen, the tire fits almost effortlessly onto the rim.

If you're watching a team mechanic glue up tires for professional races, I believe that apparent effortlessness is merely a side effect of many years of tire mounting and working with high quality cotton or silk tires previously dry-mounted on spare rims. There is always a bit of struggle, but placing the rim valve-side up against a clean hard surface on the floor or ground helps much. You can then use your weight to stretch the tire evenly from both sides, and the last bit should go over with less effort. The nice thing is that the valve shouldn't wind up crooked assuming you put it in straight to begin with. If you're mounting tires with tough casings such as Conti Sprinters, it will always be a bear to get them on.

After mounting, I tend to blow my tires to about 20psi/1.5bar and put the wheels in a stand and straighten the mount out before I inflate to full pressure. At this low pressure, it's fairly easy to lift the tire where the position is unsatisfactory and nudge to the necessary side.

Based on what has been written here about tape, I think I'll give that a pass. My only rolled tires were from Tubasti (never again), and Conti where the tire was underinflated; words from painful experience: if riding unsupported, always take your own pump to a meet, any you borrow will be less-than-functional. The two major glues (Conti, and Viit Mastik 1) work very well, and are not that hard to use.

1989Pre 03-05-23 11:27 AM

"If you're mounting tires with tough casings such as Conti Sprinters, it will always be a bear to get them on."

These have "hard-case lite", so maybe that is a factor.

"At this low pressure, it's fairly easy to lift the tire where the position is unsatisfactory and nudge to the necessary side."

This is not what I am experiencing. What I am seeing is basically a tire riveted into position by the glue and the tight fit.

I did attempt to pre-stretch them on dry rims for a few days. I really think the glue made the tires less-pliable.

I'll give it another shot tomorrow (today has already been busy). If I can't get them straight, I'll go to tape.

1989Pre 03-05-23 11:33 AM


Originally Posted by jingy2 (Post 22819774)
If I use fresh glue when ready to mount I end up with a big mess.
If let it sit for a while (30-45mins?) until it's just a little tacky I have better luck.
Some tires are just really tight, especially if they haven't been prestretched, and have to be wrestled on.
Jim in Mpls

Yep, this sounds like just the kind of tip I needed.., yesterday.;) I did pre-stretch, but I think the glue shrunk or hardened the tire.

DiabloScott 03-05-23 11:34 AM


Originally Posted by Aardwolf (Post 22819644)
I'm just going to mention tape:).

Tape people like that it's easy to install a new tire on a new rim, and that there's no glue mess, and that it's easy to get a tire on there really straight, and pretty hard to screw up.

Glue people don't like tape because it's harder to install a spare on the road, messier to remove, and it's not traditional. They also enjoy having the experience and skills to glue it right.

Classtime 03-05-23 11:40 AM

That team mechanic is mounting Continental Comps which in my experience are as tight as Sprinters and maybe more delicate in the base tape dept. Notice the guy off to the left pre-stretching😧

1989Pre 03-05-23 12:23 PM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 22819965)
That team mechanic is mounting Continental Comps which in my experience are as tight as Sprinters and maybe more delicate in the base tape dept. Notice the guy off to the left pre-stretching😧

Thanks for "sticking" with me on this. What the Conti guy is illustrating at 6:30, when he installs the final 1/5 of the tire onto the rim, is nothing like what I am going through. I promise to remain relatively-sane through this, though. :) I'll try to take a video tomorrow, to show you what I am talking about. I do not know how the Team Katusha mechanic at 2:11 is able to get the tire to budge on the rim. This installation might take until the year 2000, but I'll get it.

1989Pre 03-05-23 12:29 PM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 22819955)
Tape people like that it's easy to install a new tire on a new rim, and that there's no glue mess, and that it's easy to get a tire on there really straight, and pretty hard to screw up.

Glue people don't like tape because it's harder to install a spare on the road, messier to remove, and it's not traditional. They also enjoy having the experience and skills to glue it right.

I entered this project to gain experience and just to live what so many cyclists have gone through since the (1930's?). Little-by-little, I am learning small but consequential tips that together, could have eased my operation. I am hoping that I do not have to "start from scratch", and that after I tear the tire off tomorrow (after having installed it three days prior), that the glue remains effective. I do not think there is a way to get this tire centered, given the circumstances.

Drillium Dude 03-05-23 12:39 PM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22819465)

Maybe I should have just used tape, instead of three coats of glue. It took me three (3) tire levers to get these tires on, because the glue I put on them seems to have prevented the tires from stretching onto the rim.

Exactly the reason I use tape; no mess, no undue stress!

DD

Drillium Dude 03-05-23 12:42 PM


Originally Posted by Aardwolf (Post 22819644)

I'm just going to mention tape:
  1. Put the tape on the rim with backing still on
  2. Put the tyre on and centre it (it's not stuck yet)
  3. Pull the backing tape off (from underneath the tyre, at the side).
  4. Inflate to hard and leave
Then again I haven't tried glue (yet).

Agreed. @1989Pre - see post 2527 for some commentary (with visual aids) on the taping process.

Good luck!

DD

MooneyBloke 03-05-23 01:34 PM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 22819955)
Glue people don't like tape because... it's not traditional. They also enjoy having the experience and skills to glue it right.

No. I like gluing because I can mess around for a while. With tape, once the backing is removed, I'm stuck. Also, gluing's not brain science or rocket surgery; just choose a good glue like Conti aluminum or Vitt Mastik One and work carefully.

MooneyBloke 03-05-23 01:38 PM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22819937)
"At this low pressure, it's fairly easy to lift the tire where the position is unsatisfactory and nudge to the necessary side."

This is not what I am experiencing. What I am seeing is basically a tire riveted into position by the glue and the tight fit.

Please don't take this as ageism, but are you dealing with arthritis, injuries, or other strength issues in your hands? I've been mounting sew-ups for forty years or so, and despite not having extraordinary strong hands, I can reposition my tires right after mounting. I do leave the last glue somewhat wet when I mount the tire, and once I'm happy with the placement, I leave the wheel over-night for the bond to establish.

1989Pre 03-05-23 01:40 PM


Originally Posted by MooneyBloke (Post 22819802)
...if riding unsupported, always take your own pump to a meet, any you borrow will be less-than-functional. The two major glues (Conti, and Viit Mastik 1) work very well, and are not that hard to use.

Do you mean a floor pump? Why would other presta pumps (frame or mini) be any different from mine?

1989Pre 03-05-23 01:44 PM


Originally Posted by MooneyBloke (Post 22820086)
Please don't take this as ageism, but are you dealing with arthritis, injuries, or other strength issues in your hands? I've been mounting sew-ups for forty years or so, and despite not having extraordinary strong hands, I can reposition my tires right after mounting. I do leave the last glue somewhat wet when I mount the tire, and once I'm happy with the placement, I leave the wheel over-night for the bond to establish.

No, I am not Charles Atlas, or even Jack LaLane, but you will see what I am talking about from my video tomorrow. You mentioned letting the final coat of glue dry. Once I get this tire off tomorrow, should I let it sit, to dry the glue some, before trying a better re-install??

MooneyBloke 03-05-23 01:46 PM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22820093)
You mentioned letting the final coat of glue dry.

No. I mention leaving the last glue somewhat wet when I mount the tire. If it's nearly dry when you mount, you will have issues. Also, with the glue somewhat more soft, it can flow into the irregularities in the base tape.

MooneyBloke 03-05-23 01:52 PM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22820088)
Do you mean a floor pump? Why would other presta pumps (frame or mini) be any different from mine?

I believe I rolled a tire in a criterium long ago more because I needed a pump, and someone in my group gave me a barely functional one. I think I was maybe 25psi below an acceptable pressure, so the casing didn't constrict on the rim very well regardless of glue quality. Hard corner crits at speed do thoroughly test your wheel's qualities. So a good rule is don't count on someone else's tools being any good.

Happily, I don't ride crashateriums these days, but I still would rather not rely on anyone else's pump to save my bacon.

Classtime 03-05-23 02:15 PM

No more glue!
Get your tire on straight. Pump it up to 100psi and try to roll it off. If you can’t then leave it til Summer.

Drillium Dude 03-05-23 02:54 PM

Other than the reported issue with replacing a flat on the road, I don't understand the aversion to tape - a process I learned from Monty Young, patron saint of Condor Cycles, back in the mid-90s. I've always used tape, ride my bikes hard, and have never had a tire roll or creep on me. If it's indeed easier to remove a glued tubular on the side of the road, then why wouldn't it be more likely to roll when in use compared to a taped tire?

I noted up there a few posts ago the concern of the tires rolling because tape is assumed inferior to glue - yet in the same post, there's talk of two glued tires rolling. Hmmm....interesting. Also, if it's a fact that taped tires are hard to remove after a flat during a ride, well, why worry your cornering is going to roll it off? Tape's been around for a long, long time. If it didn't work as advertised, it wouldn't still be available today. Personally, I don't mind what people prefer, but to give anecdotal advice supporting a preference without having been down both roads reads more like "I use glue, so glue is best - anything else is dangerous". That's simply not true.

Lastly, for those having issues getting the tire straight before the glue takes a set, tape will cure that, pronto. There's no stick until you remove the protective film, so you can adjust to your heart's content without fear of the tire sticking in place before you've got it oriented to your satisfaction.

Having said all that, I don't consider my using tape the only way to do it; it's obvious glue gets the job done just as well (since I've never glued, I can't say from my own perspective - but the results don't lie: glue works - but so does tape). But tape is superior in ensuring a dead-straight mounting without having to wrestle with drying glue - a godsend for older folk (I'm one of them) who are experiencing pain and/or loss of strength from a lifetime of using and abusing les mains.

DD


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