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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

Fredo76 04-01-23 01:19 PM

I used glue in the '70s. In the '20s, I'm using tape.

In the '70s, before YouTube videos and the elaborate, 3-day Continental process (which no doubt works superbly), I just figured out gluing for myself, like most everybody else, and it worked fine. Never left a gap in the glue for removal, never had removal problems, always rode with a spare, and used it a few times without hassle. My spare was always a used tire, often one I had just repaired, which most everybody also did themselves.

Having mastered the old-school way, I see no need to continue it, and welcome tape for the supreme hassle-saver that it is. Haven't had to deal with any flat that sealant wouldn't fix, yet. One flat is on a tire without a removable valve core, however. If it ever gets fixed, it will become my spare. ;)

MooneyBloke 04-02-23 03:09 AM

Guys! Read that method on the back of the Vittoria Mastik One can shown earlier. It's not rocket science, and if you use an acid brush, it's really not that messy, and you get plenty of glue where you need it. I'd say the main issue is not dripping glue down the eyelet holes. Unless you're doing Alpine descents, criteriums, or going into TT corners around 50kph (see below), you'll do fine. I suspect the main audience in C&V is not writing off to their national governing body for a race license, and I just don't see tape as anything but additional expense for not that much labor saving.

Step to 2:46 please. Why doesn't BF append the t=166s parameter? Why why why!?!?!

Fredo76 04-02-23 01:57 PM

^^^
That's a mechanic's error, alright, and a pretty big one, too. I wonder what the error was? No glue at all? Done 15 minutes earlier and still wet? Cleaned the rims with gasoline? :rolleyes:

georges1 04-08-23 02:23 PM


Originally Posted by MooneyBloke (Post 22847681)
Guys! Read that method on the back of the Vittoria Mastik One can shown earlier. It's not rocket science, and if you use an acid brush, it's really not that messy, and you get plenty of glue where you need it. I'd say the main issue is not dripping glue down the eyelet holes. Unless you're doing Alpine descents, criteriums, or going into TT corners around 50kph (see below), you'll do fine. I suspect the main audience in C&V is not writing off to their national governing body for a race license, and I just don't see tape as anything but additional expense for not that much labor saving.

Step to 2:46 please. Why doesn't BF append the t=166s parameter? Why why why!?!?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4ufHfCZGN4&t=166s

Very interessing vid thanks for sharing:thumb: , a lot of bikes had campy delta brakes, some teams were already having shimano dura ace sti like 7-eleven and panasonic.A lot of steel frames seen in this vid

MooneyBloke 04-08-23 05:07 PM


Originally Posted by georges1 (Post 22853965)
A lot of steel frames seen in this vid

I definitely like watching the old races a bit more than the current ones. The only drawback is that most are from fuzzy VHS tapes. These days, it seems it's more about how many watts can you mash at, and the finesse seems to have evaporated. "Bring back the elegance!" ATMO. ;)

P.S. the professional race bikes were nicer looking too.

majmt 04-10-23 02:11 AM

squirtdad
Hey Jim, I think these wheels (FMB Roubaix on Nemesis rims) are similar to what youíre building. Used Mariposa Carogna tape but I donít recall the width. If youíd like, I could check and provide a detailed shot. Used that tape on two sets of wheels with no issues but havenít had to pull them off - so no help there.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c052c8551.jpeg

squirtdad 04-10-23 01:06 PM

Mark,

thanks if you get a chance that would be be great. before put tires on i have to

1) finish builiding my new kirk
2) get the hop out and fine tune the rear wheel, front is good

SJX426 04-11-23 05:24 PM


Originally Posted by squirtdad (Post 22855896)
2) get the hop out and fine tune the rear wheel, front is good

I found to focus on roundness first at low tension.
As soon as the needle moves on the park tension tool, I focus primarily on roundness.next is lateral. Repeat until true. Ignore dish until you get to higher tension, like 10 or 15.then work on the side needing to move out. Focus on DS tension afterwards.

squirtdad 04-13-23 11:47 AM


Originally Posted by SJX426 (Post 22857168)
I found to focus on roundness first at low tension.
As soon as the needle moves on the park tension tool, I focus primarily on roundness.next is lateral. Repeat until true. Ignore dish until you get to higher tension, like 10 or 15.then work on the side needing to move out. Focus on DS tension afterwards.

I have been all over with this wheel, I am getting better an wheelbuilding..... but still very much in learning, vs doing it well intuitively

thanks for ideas

SJX426 04-13-23 12:39 PM

@squirtdad - after nearly if not completely 40 years, it took several attempts to get a wheel straight as I wanted it. What I described worked well for me on the two wheels for the Bianchi.
I found the higher the tension, the more sensitive the adjustment of fractions of a turn. For me, getting it nearly "true" without regard to dish, worked out well because dish is easy to adjust. Reduce the variables. It is hard enough to get the rim round, especially at the seam. Adding uniform tension and lateral uniformity just makes it harder.
Have fun with those Nemisis rims. I have a pair on the De Rosa, of which you are familiar.

EVlove 04-16-23 09:50 AM

With the weather finally warm enough to work outside (and then some--we had two 90 degree days already!), I finally mounted those bargain Contis on my track-bike-to-be, and put about 15 miles or so on them by now.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8fb079b48a.jpg

While the Mavic front rim was fairly easy to de-gunk with carb cleaner and a round scraper, the residue on the much older Araya rear managed to be both brittle and very stubborn. Not knowing what exactly it was composed of, I did want it all gone, which took some doing. I'm probably known to the neighborhood kids as the weirdo in the driveway wearing black rubber gloves and an old apron now :twitchy:

These wheels will never see any serious descents and only emergency braking (training runs on the local rail trail) so I didn't see a need to sand or otherwise roughen up the cleaned gluing surfaces. I followed the Mastik One instructions, i.e. thin layer on both tire and rim, followed by thin layer on rim only the next day, mount, center, inflate hard, leave to cure for 24 hours. The tires had been stretching without interruption for months, and were fairly easy to dry mount by now, but the 24 hour wait off the rim pretty much undid all that. Took several attempts and a lot of sweat and grunt, the rear in particular. Not totally happy with the roundness but overall satisfied with my first glue job (I rode tubulars for a while back in the 90s but they were taped). I used up 28 grams of glue in total between the two wheels which appears to be in line with amounts reported here.

You may recall that the Ksyrium front is a well-worn copy previously ridden in competitive cyclocross, and that we got into a bit of a debate about whether the rim was still safe. The brake track is worn just a tiny bit past flat, hard to get it to show in a photo:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4a32458863.jpg

But I measured the remaining wall thickness at just a hair under 1mm and I'm confident it's still safe for the use it will see. Yes, that's a front brake on it right now, but it's strictly for emergencies and for steadying the bike as I get on and off. The wheel won't see continuous braking at all. The whole point of this build is to get me used to fixie riding for my local track, and to unlearn the braking and freewheeling habits of 50+ years.

So how do they ride? At 25mm width, clearly softer than the 23mm Michelin Dynamic clinchers on my other set, even though inflated to 125 psi, versus 95. But it's still an aluminum frame, of course, so quite a bit harsher than my more C&V appropriate steel rides.

Road Fan 05-02-23 07:48 PM


Originally Posted by Positron400 (Post 22844204)
I am sure there can be some scientific values such as bonding force/removal force/bonding strength derived, if one was inclined to go that route. Even more so, i am 100 % confident the leading glue manufacturers (Conti, etc.) have had to do their own studies to have this product on the shelf and approved by the authorities, esp. if it is used by the pros. It's not like they would be sharing their results with us plebs, but still otherwise there would be WAAAAY too much liability.

Several folks in this thread have asked for some technical data pertaining to the quality of tubular tire installation adhesives and their methods. This link,

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...WgVNnGVNMJ_MdP

takes you to some work done by Calvin Jones of Park Tool and a broader team. It's worth a look!

Road Fan 05-02-23 09:00 PM

Want recommendation for a 27-30 mm supple, butyl handmade tubular tire
 
My silver Mondonico needs a new pair of shoes and I want to go with 27 to 30 mm wide, butyl tubed, hand-assembled, high thread count tire. I'm not looking for the absllute greatest seta selle main, but I want tires which will feel good. My fitter recommended a Vittoria clincher with the statement that it is the ballet slipper of road clinchers. Closest tubies I've had have been the Challenge Paris-Roubaix 27 mm tubulars, cotton, high 300-ish thread count, butyl tubes. I bought two pairs a number of years ago and one of them is getting pretty bald-pated. So, time for some more tires!

It's been wearing my 21 mm Gommitalia latexes. They are also hand made with a very supple carcass, but they seem to have stiff sidewalls. I don't have the explanation for that. Plus the ones I've ridden on are also getting sorta bald - 110 psi supporting 110 pop (pounds of pork) each, on only 21 mm wide contact patches. A truly lovely tire, but I think I'll be better-off going wide and with butyl.

Any recommendations or suggestions? Basic idea, again, is to replace cotton super skinny latex Gommitalia Espressos (originally bought based on a tip from Lotek) with decently plump hand made cotton butyl which is supple, efficient, and durable.

Road Fan 05-03-23 05:55 AM


Originally Posted by MooneyBloke (Post 22841062)
I tend to think there is a "must" if you want to take hard corners with a more than a small measure of confidence. I don't particularly like the taste of pavement.

Also, I'm not sure I'd call a glue job that destroys a tire on removal a ten. I'd consider a perfect glue job something I can remove by hand (thumbs to insert a round bladed tool and pull tool to lift off glue) but would never roll off in cornering.

The real question is how good a bond is tire:basetape:dry <--> wet:dry:rim?

I tend to think that the wet application will soften the dry glue and bond very strongly with it. I'd like an understanding to the contrary if I am wrong.

FWIW: if I'm in reasonable shape, I weigh about 142lbs hydrated, and I run 22mm (veloflex crits) front and back at 100psi/110psi respectively.

In a normal smooth curve for which the bike is leaned and in constant curvature the physics of the force vectors says the force on the tire from the road is in plane with the wheel, not tending to push the tire off the rim. When the bike changes direction in the curve and hence changes lean angles, there will be a sidewards force until the lean angle stops changing.

I personally have ridden my bike home from a ride with a flatted tire replaced with minimum glueing (probably DS2 or 3) since I had old glue on the old tire and I had not pre-glued nearly no glue on the new tire), at full hand-pump tire pressure maybe 70 psi, with no sign of the tire falling off the rim or the valve being stressed. The roll-off problem is IMHO not a problem if you do not ride aggressively. This is in flat Chicago, city of Denver, and flat-ish Michigan. If you live in the Rockies where there may be no such thing as gentle braking down the hill into town to get home I guess it could be worse. If you are in a race I think you need installation with a high DS index.

So consider the riding environment.

MooneyBloke 05-03-23 07:16 AM

I'm no engineer, but I think your analysis works only with a banked velodrome where the surface is near perpendicular to the plane of the wheel. I think the vector component of the centripetal force perpendicular to the plane of the wheel brings about the tendency to roll when cornering.

Road Fan 05-06-23 09:19 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 22878384)
My silver Mondonico needs a new pair of shoes and I want to go with 27 to 30 mm wide, butyl tubed, hand-assembled, high thread count tire. I'm not looking for the absllute greatest seta selle main, but I want tires which will feel good. My fitter recommended a Vittoria clincher with the statement that it is the ballet slipper of road clinchers. Closest tubies I've had have been the Challenge Paris-Roubaix 27 mm tubulars, cotton, high 300-ish thread count, butyl tubes. I bought two pairs a number of years ago and one of them is getting pretty bald-pated. So, time for some more tires!

It's been wearing my 21 mm Gommitalia latexes. They are also hand made with a very supple carcass, but they seem to have stiff sidewalls. I don't have the explanation for that. Plus the ones I've ridden on are also getting sorta bald - 110 psi supporting 110 pop (pounds of pork) each, on only 21 mm wide contact patches. A truly lovely tire, but I think I'll be better-off going wide and with butyl.

Any recommendations or suggestions? Basic idea, again, is to replace cotton super skinny latex Gommitalia Espressos (originally bought based on a tip from Lotek) with decently plump hand made cotton butyl which is supple, efficient, and durable.

So, does anyone have any recommendations for a tubular road tire?

DiabloScott 05-06-23 09:32 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 22882446)
So, does anyone have any recommendations for a tubular road tire?

I recommend you re-consider your butyl tube criterion. These are very nice, with latex tubes. May be discontinued but still available.


S-Works Turbo Hell Of The North Tubular Black/Transparent Sidewall Size: 28 x 28
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...05b975dc27.jpg

MooneyBloke 05-07-23 06:27 AM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 22882452)
I recommend you re-consider your butyl tube criterion.

Having spent quality time with the insides of sew-ups I have to agree here. Not only have butyl tubed sew-ups been unpleasant to ride by comparison, but evidently, latex tubes work better with sealant, and they seem easier to patch. Basically you cut a small chunk from an old latex tube, and stick it on with rubber cement. (Jobst Brandt trick).

CV-6 05-12-23 12:23 PM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 22882452)
I recommend you re-consider your butyl tube criterion. These are very nice, with latex tubes. May be discontinued but still available.


S-Works Turbo Hell Of The North Tubular Black/Transparent Sidewall Size: 28 x 28

I will second this recommendation. Both tubular and open models are excellent.

Positron400 05-14-23 02:47 PM

In terms of tubular puncture repair - After my first 200 km i had my first puncture, which was quite the bummer :/ . However, stan's sealant did the job splendidly and still keeps air at 6 bars. Those were on Challenge 700x25C tubulars.

1989Pre 05-14-23 03:22 PM


Originally Posted by Positron400 (Post 22889719)
In terms of tubular puncture repair - After my first 200 km i had my first puncture, which was quite the bummer :/ . However, stan's sealant did the job splendidly and still keeps air at 6 bars. Those were on Challenge 700x25C tubulars.

So you had both good and bad luck! I have not gotten to 200km on my tubulars, and have not blown a flat yet. I'm really glad to hear that the Stan's worked, because I have not purchased a spare tire to bring with me, and have only the Stan's in my saddle-bag. What do you think you hit, and did it go flat instantly? Front or rear?

Positron400 05-14-23 03:38 PM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22889744)
So you had both good and bad luck! I have not gotten to 200km on my tubulars, and have not blown a flat yet. I'm really glad to hear that the Stan's worked, because I have not purchased a spare tire to bring with me, and have only the Stan's in my saddle-bag. What do you think you hit, and did it go flat instantly? Front or rear?

I had both, sealant and a spare tubuluar with me (albeit a skinner one at 22 mm). I think it might've been a splinter or something else sharp which resulted in a puncture. I did not go flat immediately but only thought i had a slow leak due to the valve core coming loose or something like it. the flat was in the rear (because ofc it was :D). Removed the valve core and added ~50 mL sealant. pumped it up and rode back home.
Before I had a spare bottle of sealant in my EDC i didn't venture too far from the nearest train station. Now I feel i can venutre out further :)

1989Pre 05-14-23 05:53 PM


Originally Posted by Positron400 (Post 22889763)
I had both, sealant and a spare tubuluar with me (albeit a skinner one at 22 mm). I think it might've been a splinter or something else sharp which resulted in a puncture. I did not go flat immediately but only thought i had a slow leak due to the valve core coming loose or something like it. the flat was in the rear (because ofc it was :D). Removed the valve core and added ~50 mL sealant. pumped it up and rode back home.
Before I had a spare bottle of sealant in my EDC i didn't venture too far from the nearest train station. Now I feel i can venutre out further :)

I have to make sure I have my valve core remover. Thanks for mentioning it.

79pmooney 05-14-23 06:37 PM

Edit: I meant to quote 1989Pre, not Positron! Sorry guys.


Originally Posted by Positron400 (Post 22889763)
I had both, sealant and a spare tubuluar with me (albeit a skinner one at 22 mm). I think it might've been a splinter or something else sharp which resulted in a puncture. I did not go flat immediately but only thought i had a slow leak due to the valve core coming loose or something like it. the flat was in the rear (because ofc it was :D). Removed the valve core and added ~50 mL sealant. pumped it up and rode back home.
Before I had a spare bottle of sealant in my EDC i didn't venture too far from the nearest train station. Now I feel i can venutre out further :)

Get the spare or have a backup plan. (Cell phone + wife with car, shoes you are wiling to walk home in, etc. Not all flats seal. You are tempting the famous Murphy. (I rode decades on tubulars as my only tires. Carried one spare and a patch kit - and knew how to use it. The one spare worked always got me home except the day I rode to Fitchburg from Boston to watch the race. Half way home i got my second flat. I remember sitting on a hillside above the road in long grass patching that tire. It got me home just fine. That could have been a very long day. I am just now back on tubulars after 20 years away. The game has changed. I am riding now with Orange Seal in my tool bag plus 2 new Rally tubulars. Too old to risk the old days of "epic" rides.)

1989Pre 05-14-23 08:02 PM


Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 22889930)
Get the spare or have a backup plan. (Cell phone + wife with car, shoes you are wiling to walk home in, etc. Not all flats seal. You are tempting the famous Murphy.

Thanks for mentioning that. I had read in some post that not all punctures seal. The roads up here are clean, but I'll get my hands on a spare tire. Boston to Fitchburg is a long ride.

Positron400 05-15-23 12:24 AM


Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 22889930)
Edit: I meant to quote 1989Pre, not Positron! Sorry guys.



Get the spare or have a backup plan. (Cell phone + wife with car, shoes you are wiling to walk home in, etc. Not all flats seal. You are tempting the famous Murphy. (I rode decades on tubulars as my only tires. Carried one spare and a patch kit - and knew how to use it. The one spare worked always got me home except the day I rode to Fitchburg from Boston to watch the race. Half way home i got my second flat. I remember sitting on a hillside above the road in long grass patching that tire. It got me home just fine. That could have been a very long day. I am just now back on tubulars after 20 years away. The game has changed. I am riding now with Orange Seal in my tool bag plus 2 new Rally tubulars. Too old to risk the old days of "epic" rides.)

What patch kit would you use for a tubular? I want to add an extra layer of protection for my tub-rides :) Thanks!

MooneyBloke 05-15-23 08:42 AM


Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 22889930)
Carried one spare and a patch kit - and knew how to use it.

While I've repaired tires plenty of times (sometimes well, sometimes not), the idea of tearing into a tire on the side of the road is more of an adventure than I'd like. My patching kit takes up a good part of a small metal army surplus box; I'd rather not carry that along.

N.B. Cruddy spoke wrench is just for valve stems (blue marked section); I have much better for wheel building.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4f5a038c44.jpg

79pmooney 05-15-23 09:05 AM

I'm just now back in the tubular game. I still have my old Velox patch kit. The small metal orange box that just barely contains the essentials. I used waxed nylon (now polyester) twine (and a Speedy Stitcher at home but carried just the rather good Velox needle).

I won't even consider bringing any patch kit now until I've successfully patched a few of the new tubbies and brought my skills back. (Do I still have the hand strength to pull the base tape and get a needle through? Not a given with the injuries they've seen.) And it's entirely possible that I will simply be sending those tires off to whoever and paying to have them fixed in which case, those skill will stay un-acquired. I am no longer a poor, bike racing 24 yo whose second budget item after food was tires.

And now, the sealants are good. They weren't even a dream yet when I started. (But sealant plus injector is a lot bigger and less elegant to carry than that svelte little patch kit. Messy liquid.) Those little boxes were handy for other stuff too. Perfect jersey pocket size. And not takes-the-whole-pocket. It went in the pocket with other tools or you bike wallet.

MooneyBloke 05-15-23 11:53 AM

Yes, there's a sewing awl buried in my kit. Trying to shove a needle through four plies of latex saturated cotton would just about do my hands in, and that device makes doing the Veloflex/Vittoria zig-zag much easier. Somehow I don't think my late mother's old Husqvarna is quite up to the job. The only bare needle stitch I do is a short run to tack the chafing strip back in place.

The naphtha is to prep the patch and tire surface before applying the rubber cement. I have some TruFlate rubber cement and talc. I think the only thing not in the kit is scissors and soap for washing off the talc initially on the patch after cutting it from a length of old tube. (I've used this with butyl tubes on my commuter too but with two layers as there's no chafing protection there.) The Velox box has abrasives for removing seams from butyl tubes. The TearMender is for sticking the base tape back in place. BTW: this doesn't work very well with Conti Sprinters, and I've not yet found an adhesive that does. (Grumble pout!)

Sadly, I wish I was flush enough to think nothing of laying in a good stash of spares, but a very bad situation with a startup (we're happy to have you work, but actually paying you... not so much.) and the pandemic has made things a bit rough for me.

N.B. save a 2oz Stan's bottle and a valve tool. They aren't too big, and won't need much space in your jersey pocket. I've saved a couple of the small bottles and I fill them with a given weight of sealant, and stick the nozzle in the de-cored stem. Works a treat.

79pmooney 05-15-23 01:11 PM

MooneyBloke, I didn't look art your photo when I posted. Was trying to remember if those Velox boxes had rounded corners and was pretty sure they did. I certainly never snagged a jersey with one. Your photo - my memory's right!


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