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-   -   Realistic max watt increase for Masters sprinter (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=1184647)

ChrisRob01 09-28-19 04:47 PM

Realistic max watt increase for Masters sprinter
 
Hi Guys,

Im about a year in to track cycling, previously raced bmx.

Im mid 40ís having fun, losing weight and getting better.

Im hitting about 1600 watts of peak power at 90kg

What in your experience is a realistic max watt goal?

I know the most watts donít always win

But just interested at my age if there is still scope to get near 2000?

Thanks

Chris

colnago62 09-28-19 10:26 PM


Originally Posted by ChrisRob01 (Post 21142245)
Hi Guys,

Im about a year in to track cycling, previously raced bmx.

Im mid 40ís having fun, losing weight and getting better.

Im hitting about 1600 watts of peak power at 90kg

What in your experience is a realistic max watt goal?

I know the most watts donít always win

But just interested at my age if there is still scope to get near 2000?

Thanks

Chris

I think there are a few around here doing those numbers. I will say that the guys that are doing those numbers on this forum are very serious about racing. They are not the average guy you might go up against at your local sprint night. At my local velodrome, many of the guys that show up are not really match sprinters. They like the hang and sprinting is relatively safe compared to other forms of racing.

carleton 09-29-19 03:36 AM


Originally Posted by ChrisRob01 (Post 21142245)
Hi Guys,

Im about a year in to track cycling, previously raced bmx.

Im mid 40ís having fun, losing weight and getting better.

Im hitting about 1600 watts of peak power at 90kg

What in your experience is a realistic max watt goal?

I know the most watts donít always win

But just interested at my age if there is still scope to get near 2000?

Thanks

Chris

Yeah. If you were in a max wattage contest, I could teach you how to game the system and get max watts for a given effort.

If you are using watts as a proxy to know if you are getting stronger, then there are better ways to do that, too. Pay attention to your lifts in the gym. Very few people get close to their max possible based on the card genetics has dealt them.

People get stronger the longer they are in track racing. I started in 2009, and in 2017 I was still hitting PBs in the gym and on track to hit PBs on the bike, but I didn't complete my season. Early season numbers were close to previous season bests.

So, yes, it's very possible

queerpunk 09-29-19 04:46 PM

worth noting that the amount of watts you make from 10-15 seconds of an effort (or from 15 to 20 seconds into the effort) is a lot lower than your peak power, but determines your max speed a whole lot more.

which is to say if i had to choose between a 2000w max with a 1000w 15-second average, and a 1400w max but a 1250w 15-second average - guess which i'd choose? guess which would give me a higher top speed?

you have headroom to increase your max wattage, but if you wanna go faster, focus on *drawing out* your max wattage - doing it for longer.

brawlo 09-29-19 07:06 PM


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 21143430)
worth noting that the amount of watts you make from 10-15 seconds of an effort (or from 15 to 20 seconds into the effort) is a lot lower than your peak power, but determines your max speed a whole lot more.

which is to say if i had to choose between a 2000w max with a 1000w 15-second average, and a 1400w max but a 1250w 15-second average - guess which i'd choose? guess which would give me a higher top speed?

you have headroom to increase your max wattage, but if you wanna go faster, focus on *drawing out* your max wattage - doing it for longer.

This is right on the money. There's lots of guys waving their things around with high peak wattages that just can't deliver with F200 times. The big boppers that I know don't give a damn about a peak wattage, they're much more preoccupied with 20s power and technique to enhance the repeatability of their efforts.

For me, I busted out a sceptical, but still recorded 2500W on my kickr. My best was 11.8 F200 but to be fair that 2500W was after a kick ass off season where my metrics were all going up. Then life went to poo for my personal sports goals and now I just have to dream of what could have been as I play doting father to my sporting daughter for a while

ruudlaff 09-30-19 01:24 AM


Originally Posted by brawlo (Post 21143619)
This is right on the money. There's lots of guys waving their things around with high peak wattages that just can't deliver with F200 times. The big boppers that I know don't give a damn about a peak wattage, they're much more preoccupied with 20s power and technique to enhance the repeatability of their efforts.

For me, I busted out a sceptical, but still recorded 2500W on my kickr. My best was 11.8 F200 but to be fair that 2500W was after a kick ass off season where my metrics were all going up. Then life went to poo for my personal sports goals and now I just have to dream of what could have been as I play doting father to my sporting daughter for a while

I'm starting to agree, I think max wattages are a bit of a misnomer.

Our track club have been doing training weekends recently with some benchmarking and it started to open my eyes a little.

There's guys that are low 11/high 10 that are only hitting 1700(?). There's a masters racer who is putting in >2000 who is mid 11s. Even myself, I'm sitting 1600 or so at 80kg and I'm only sitting about 12.

One feedback that did come out of the benchmarking is that the cadence you hit your peak is as important as the peak itself (especially for gearing)

Morelock 09-30-19 04:55 AM

Using times in an f200 (trying to compare wattage to expected performance) can also lead you down false rabbit holes. Rolling Resistance, Power meter accuracy/lag, Track surface/steepness, Weather/Heat, Aerodynamics, and of course line through the 200 all have large impacts on finishing time that most people don't account for when comparing times to others. I'm in low 12's, but never peak hit 1k watts on the track.

carleton 09-30-19 08:31 AM


Originally Posted by ruudlaff (Post 21143870)
I'm starting to agree, I think max wattages are a bit of a misnomer.

Our track club have been doing training weekends recently with some benchmarking and it started to open my eyes a little.

There's guys that are low 11/high 10 that are only hitting 1700(?). There's a masters racer who is putting in >2000 who is mid 11s. Even myself, I'm sitting 1600 or so at 80kg and I'm only sitting about 12.

One feedback that did come out of the benchmarking is that the cadence you hit your peak is as important as the peak itself (especially for gearing)

"Cadence" you say?

Hmmm...I'd swear that there was some chap preaching for years around here that cadence is the metric to watch (not power) :innocent:

ruudlaff 09-30-19 08:46 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 21144157)
"Cadence" you say?

Hmmm...I'd swear that there was some chap preaching for years around here that cadence is the metric to watch (not power) :innocent:

You don't say... :)

acslater55 09-30-19 05:49 PM


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 21143430)
worth noting that the amount of watts you make from 10-15 seconds of an effort (or from 15 to 20 seconds into the effort) is a lot lower than your peak power, but determines your max speed a whole lot more.

which is to say if i had to choose between a 2000w max with a 1000w 15-second average, and a 1400w max but a 1250w 15-second average - guess which i'd choose? guess which would give me a higher top speed?

you have headroom to increase your max wattage, but if you wanna go faster, focus on *drawing out* your max wattage - doing it for longer.

That being said, what is a good wattage for 15 seconds?

queerpunk 09-30-19 08:09 PM


Originally Posted by acslater55 (Post 21144988)
That being said, what is a good wattage for 15 seconds?

you know, a bunch of years ago, when i was starting to travel around and race on the national circuit, i said to my old track director, "Hey - what kind of a flying 200 should an enduro like me be capable of?"

he responded, "twelve oh is good. eleven five is better."

anyway, the answer is "it depends" because brawlo can pop off 2500 watts on a kickr and has a 11.8 PR, and my best is right around there but I barely cracked 1100w during that effort.

besides... eleven five is better.

brawlo 09-30-19 10:13 PM


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 21145149)
you know, a bunch of years ago, when i was starting to travel around and race on the national circuit, i said to my old track director, "Hey - what kind of a flying 200 should an enduro like me be capable of?"

he responded, "twelve oh is good. eleven five is better."

anyway, the answer is "it depends" because brawlo can pop off 2500 watts on a kickr and has a 11.8 PR, and my best is right around there but I barely cracked 1100w during that effort.

besides... eleven five is better.

Because as a friend put it to me, I'm like a piano with a parachute. As a 6'5" rig that sees aero as some fairytale story, that "2500" watts still won't get me terribly fast. That is a peaky short accel whereas what gets you your time is sustained speed for the full effort. That is where bigger gears are coming into play. Small gears are great for accelerations, but the truth is that there are only a very small handful of gifted individuals that are able to churn out power for any meaningful distance/time with them. Most mere mortals get far better results from larger gears with lower peak power but for longer durations.

Power is intensely personal. You can likely talk ballpark figures for a comparison, but the figures that a 60kg whippet in full aero kit are going to be wildly different from someone that is 6'5" on spoked box rims and wearing non-aero club kit

Baby Puke 09-30-19 10:46 PM

Over the last couple of seasons I have been making a conscious effort to improve my position. and I think it's paying off. I'm going faster than ever despite being older and having my gym numbers decline over the past few seasons. I used to pshaw those who said to get low, get narrow, get elbows in-- my heroes have been the monsters of the late 90's early 00's like Arnauld Tournant; that guy was about as aero as a bus, but so powerful. But now I think I'm seeing the dividends of paying some effort there.

queerpunk 10-01-19 08:26 AM


Originally Posted by brawlo (Post 21145265)
a 60kg whippet in full aero kit ...

heh. you read me to a T. although somebody with WC stripes and some records did tell me that i have a big ol' pursuiter's butt.


Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 21145302)
Over the last couple of seasons I have been making a conscious effort to improve my position. and I think it's paying off. I'm going faster than ever despite being older and having my gym numbers decline over the past few seasons. I used to pshaw those who said to get low, get narrow, get elbows in-- my heroes have been the monsters of the late 90's early 00's like Arnauld Tournant; that guy was about as aero as a bus, but so powerful. But now I think I'm seeing the dividends of paying some effort there.

yup. jon frahley used to be quite vocal about how the older he got, the faster he got, even though he wasn't putting out any more power. he focused on longer power and refining his position - he rode short cranks and with a long, narrow position and wound up getting fast enough to beat njisane phillip at the lagp.

ChrisRob01 10-04-19 01:22 PM


Originally Posted by ChrisRob01 (Post 21142245)
Hi Guys,

Im about a year in to track cycling, previously raced bmx.

Im mid 40ís having fun, losing weight and getting better.

Im hitting about 1600 watts of peak power at 90kg

What in your experience is a realistic max watt goal?

I know the most watts donít always win

But just interested at my age if there is still scope to get near 2000?

Thanks

Chris

Thanks all

Really appreciate the guidance and feedback and all that messages

loving this journey, got a long way to go, but getting fitter, lighter and in a better aero position.

Ive noticed dropping body weight has helped a lot, lost a little on the squat but feeler quicker overall

One difference from being a bmx racer is the amount of pedalling and being constant!

itís hard work but great at the same time and pleased i can hit 210rpm on the watt bike which is better than when i was in my 20ís

Still playing with the gearings, i do naturally feel better at a higher rpm on a smaller gearing (perhaps itís bmx influence) and now iím fitter i feel i can maintain it better

I probably will need to get used to a bigger gearing in time

Thanks

Chris

carleton 10-04-19 11:08 PM

Glad to see you stoked on this.

A few comments:

First 3 rules to being successful in Masters track racing:
- Don't be fat.
- Don't be fat.
- Don't be fat.

I know it sounds stupid, but being heavy (even strong as hell and heavy) isn't as good as being on the average or lean side. Yes, larger leads to better gym numbers and better wattage numbers, but winning races takes more than strength. Being bigger hinders recovery on the bike and in the infield as well as hindering aerodynamics.

With gears that are common these days, you'll never touch 150RPM. So, touching 200 is great...but doesn't really help much. Focus on being smooth at 90, 100, 110, 120, 130, and 140RPM. Like holding those cadences for a several seconds at a time. You'll probably find one that creates an odd resonance that results in butt-bounce. Learn to smooth that out. Chances are you'll have to invoke some different muscles than normal.

ChrisRob01 10-05-19 10:03 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 21150793)
Glad to see you stoked on this.

A few comments:

First 3 rules to being successful in Masters track racing:
- Don't be fat.
- Don't be fat.
- Don't be fat.

I know it sounds stupid, but being heavy (even strong as hell and heavy) isn't as good as being on the average or lean side. Yes, larger leads to better gym numbers and better wattage numbers, but winning races takes more than strength. Being bigger hinders recovery on the bike and in the infield as well as hindering aerodynamics.

With gears that are common these days, you'll never touch 150RPM. So, touching 200 is great...but doesn't really help much. Focus on being smooth at 90, 100, 110, 120, 130, and 140RPM. Like holding those cadences for a several seconds at a time. You'll probably find one that creates an odd resonance that results in butt-bounce. Learn to smooth that out. Chances are you'll have to invoke some different muscles than normal.


ha ha yes working on that, seems to be diet mainly for me

Might be a daft question, but is there a target body fat percentage thatís optimal or is it ďjust donít be fatĒ ?

Yeah that makes a lot of sense, I can see the gearings have got a lot bigger.

Is it as simple as squat, power work and bike sprints and bigger gearings and I will transfer the squat to the bike as long as my efficiency is good?

Thanks again

Chris

carleton 10-07-19 03:56 PM

You donít have to watch your weight like hill climbers. Just be generally fit in terms of body fat. Itís not uncommon for cyclists to develop an unhealthy obsession with weight.

Regarding big gears, even smaller riders and juniors are able to do it with training. But you canít just slap on a 12t cog and expect success. The adaptation period can be a while.


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