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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

63rickert 08-09-19 09:39 AM

If the price of good tubulars puts you off, shop. Shop some more.

This morning I rode on 29mm silk tubulars by Vittoria. Cost $23 each. Swap meet item. Bought late in the day after everyone else had looked at them and passed. Because they have a Bontrager label on them. Customers tried to look up the label on their phones and got no hits because they are team tires and have absolute zero internet presence. Omigosh. If the internet has no reviews be afraid, be very afraid. Also the vendors were quick to inform potential buyers that the tires were wide and would only fit in frames with clearance. Basically no one has clearance except on their gravel bike, which bike uses tubeless, not tubular.

My bikes only use top end tires. Far easier to find tubulars at good prices than to find best clinchers at good prices.

ThermionicScott 08-09-19 10:25 AM


Originally Posted by tiredhands (Post 21067488)
I dunno, I like the YJ 3 pack. If I've got to use skinny tires, I'd much rather ride on cheap tubies than 21mm clinchers. They've got a removable valve core, (which I don't think the Rally's do) so with some sealant I don't have to be anxious about pinch flatting at every bump or not dodging all of the road debris. A luxurious ride they most certainly are not, but from a pragmatic standpoint I think they're a better deal than even mid-range skinny clinchers.

Does anyone even make 21mm (or narrower) clinchers anymore? ;)

79pmooney 08-09-19 10:54 AM


Originally Posted by Chombi1 (Post 21066733)
As always mentioned in this thread, Vittoria Rallys are at best. Just an "introductory" tubular tire for people that just want to try out tubs for a first time to get a sort of idea how the ride on tubs are different from the typical clincher tire. And also a good training tool for how to glue and mount tubs to rims. At this point, the good condition Rallys thst I started out with are now delegated to spare tire duty for my bikes that I take with me on the road.....
If someone would really like to know how superior the ride and handling is with tubs, one hast at least try a mid level brand model, which would provide a ride that would definitely be very different from clinchers. My current favorite tubular tire these days is the Vittoria Corsa G. Fast, light, really smooth, lively....and did I mention FAST??!!

Chombi1, are the Rallys similar to the cotton (most were ribbed tread) Vittorias (in a variety of labels) 40 years ago? Mediocre feeling casings, good construction, decently straight and even riding. Straightforward to repair. I trained on those tires (labeled Vittoria, Palo Alto, etc.) Just fine for club racing and as spare wheel s at races. Decent rain tires. Yes, the new good clinchers are better, faster ... but those cheap sewups were far better than the first and second generation clinchers as an all around tire with a primary job of keeping our skin off the pavement.

If those Rallys are that same tire (improvements in tread compound, replaceable valves, etc. permitted) I'd go back to my old practice - 2 sets of wheels, one Rally and one nice (I lust for Corsa G whatever sewups). 400 gm rims for the Rallys, 330 gm for the nice ones. (I raced 290s. Summer training/club racing were 330s. Fix gear had 400s which got cut off and rebuilt every April (after a New England winter, they were irregular polygons).

I just had my custom fix gear professionally spiffed. New paint for fork. Rode it yesterday. It's a top of the line 1980s ti race bike in a fictional world where gears were never invented. And what a ride! Now if I could just put the wheels on that bike deserves!

Ben

iab 08-09-19 04:34 PM


Originally Posted by tiredhands (Post 21067488)
I dunno, I like the YJ 3 pack. If I've got to use skinny tires, I'd much rather ride on cheap tubies than 21mm clinchers. They've got a removable valve core, (which I don't think the Rally's do) so with some sealant I don't have to be anxious about pinch flatting at every bump or not dodging all of the road debris. A luxurious ride they most certainly are not, but from a pragmatic standpoint I think they're a better deal than even mid-range skinny clinchers.

Depends on how you do the math. Don't know why anyone would use money to get 21mm clinchers, but 28mm Paselas will run you 3 for lets say $65. Plus 2 inner tubes will bring you to $70. The 3 YJ plus glue will take you to $60. So you have $10 in your pocket.

I'd take no less than $50 to ride on ****ty YJ tires for the next 18 months than on the Paselas. My prostate will thank me. My bladder will also thank me.

So why exactly would you ever consider riding 21mm clinchers? Spending all your money on weed? Not that there is anything wrong with that? :)

Chombi1 08-09-19 05:50 PM


Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 21067682)
Chombi1, are the Rallys similar to the cotton (most were ribbed tread) Vittorias (in a variety of labels) 40 years ago? Mediocre feeling casings, good construction, decently straight and even riding. Straightforward to repair. I trained on those tires (labeled Vittoria, Palo Alto, etc.) Just fine for club racing and as spare wheel s at races. Decent rain tires. Yes, the new good clinchers are better, faster ... but those cheap sewups were far better than the first and second generation clinchers as an all around tire with a primary job of keeping our skin off the pavement.

If those Rallys are that same tire (improvements in tread compound, replaceable valves, etc. permitted) I'd go back to my old practice - 2 sets of wheels, one Rally and one nice (I lust for Corsa G whatever sewups). 400 gm rims for the Rallys, 330 gm for the nice ones. (I raced 290s. Summer training/club racing were 330s. Fix gear had 400s which got cut off and rebuilt every April (after a New England winter, they were irregular polygons).

I just had my custom fix gear professionally spiffed. New paint for fork. Rode it yesterday. It's a top of the line 1980s ti race bike in a fictional world where gears were never invented. And what a ride! Now if I could just put the wheels on that bike deserves!

Ben

Not sure if the present Rallys are the same or similar to the older ones.
I'm sure they are cotton cased and IIRC, have tpi count that is not bad. They incorporate a kevlar belt for flat resistance (and they do seem to be quite resistant to flats) that adds a bit of weight to them, so on paper, at least, they sound like decent enough for use as "training" tires. But what really puts them down is the usually unacceptable build quality from the factory in Thailand. Treads on most Rally tires are usually crooked (Never saw one with perfectly straight treads on them) and they also usally have very lumpy valve stem area base tapes that do not let the tire bed down completely against the rim. Although they do feel different from a clincher, ride-wise. They pretty much could be considered as one of the worst riding tubular tires on the market these days.
Never owned/rode any of the older Rallys, but I suspect that they might have been made in Italy in the original Vittoria factories? And maybe made better?
Out of curiosity, I also tried Continental's cheapest tubular tires, the Giro, and found them to be quite similar to the Rallys in terms of quality = quite bad... the pair I bought a couple of years ago had one of the tires with a discernable hop to it when I rode it....just really bad tires....

Classtime 08-09-19 06:11 PM


Originally Posted by iab (Post 21068179)
So why exactly would you ever consider riding 21mm clinchers? Spending all your money on weed? Not that there is anything wrong with that? :)

I have 20mm clincher Michelins on my Centurion Turbo. They were on my Sachs for a while and before that, I did a century on my Iron Man with them. They look really cool. They were given to me and I am cheap--so there is that. I started riding tubulars about 9 years ago with 22mm Gatorskins. Gatorskins are not cheap but they are durable and I didn't want a flat tire experience with my first set. It worked out ok. I can understand getting two tires and a spare for 50 bucks to dip one's feet in the tubular waters and some folk use them for commuting which also makes some sense.

iab 08-09-19 06:34 PM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 21068325)
I have 20mm clincher Michelins on my Centurion Turbo. They were on my Sachs for a while and before that, I did a century on my Iron Man with them. They look really cool. They were given to me and I am cheap--so there is that. I started riding tubulars about 9 years ago with 22mm Gatorskins. Gatorskins are not cheap but they are durable and I didn't want a flat tire experience with my first set. It worked out ok. I can understand getting two tires and a spare for 50 bucks to dip one's feet in the tubular waters and some folk use them for commuting which also makes some sense.

Why pay $50 for a ****ty experience when $60 will get you a good experience?

Classtime 08-09-19 07:00 PM

For me, a tubular experience is a good experience by definition. Those high thread count Ritchey tires linked above are tempting at $16.32 each. I got snake bit on Wednesday riding on 23mm GP4000s at 100lbs. It never would have happened on my 22mm tubulars at 90lbs.

iab 08-09-19 07:54 PM

I don't know. I'd rather pay extra for a happy ending than getting a kick in the crotch. :(

jimmuller 08-10-19 06:01 AM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 21068325)
I can understand getting two tires and a spare for 50 bucks to dip one's feet in the tubular waters and some folk use them for commuting which also makes some sense.

I'm not sure if you mean some folks commute on tubulars or some folks commute on cheap tubulars. Or maybe that some commute with wet feet. :D

I like to commute on tubulars because fixing a flat on a tubular is faster than fixing a flat on a clincher. Plus tubulars ride so nice.

seedsbelize 08-12-19 12:07 PM


Originally Posted by iab (Post 21065175)
You won't like it if you use the YJ tires. I would recommend not using tubulars if that is your plan.

YJ tires are perfectly acceptable as a spare, nothing else.

That plan is off. I contacted them and found the shipping to be much more than the tires
I have since found both Challenge and Tufo available locally. And a pair of Mavic rims, if they are still available when I get home from vacation. I'm looking forward to trying something new.

seedsbelize 08-12-19 12:11 PM


Originally Posted by jcb3 (Post 21065641)
Tufo S33 Pros are great starter tires - $30 each, nearly impossible to flat, last forever, and constructed such that sealant works very well.

Ride like gator skins, and not a lot of love to be found for TUFOs, but a good gateway to get over the fear of tubulars.

I’m now riding vittoria pave and like them a lot, although they only last me 1200 miles on a rear.

I have Open Pavé on one bike-- my intro to nice tires. Very little available locally, but if I find I like them I can have them shipped to a US address.

JohnDThompson 08-12-19 05:20 PM

I had a new experience riding tubulars today. I had mounted a NOS Vittoria Mondiale tire on the rear wheel earlier this spring and have been riding it since. Went for a ride today, and after climbing the hill at High Cliff State Park noticed a regular "thump-thump-thump" from the rear wheel. Dismounted and took a look, expecting to see a casing failure causing the tire to bulge. No such thing; all I saw was the edge of the base tape looking loose in a couple places. No problem; I'll take care of it when I get home. But what was causing that "thump-thump-thump?" Looked closer and saw about a 5mm "hop" in the tire near the valve stem. Not the rim, the tire. The casing was the same width all along, so it didn't seem to be an impending casing failure. Decided to play it safe and cut my ride short, returning home with no problems. Went to pull the tire off the rim but when I deflated the tire, it literally fell off the base tape. My glue job holding the base tape to the rim held up fine, but Vittoria's glue job holding the base tape to the tire failed completely! Apparently, the loose base tape adhesive allowed the tire to slide on the base tape, piling up to form that "hop" near the valve stem, which stopped it from sliding any further. So, now I need to find replacement base tape and a decent adhesive to hold the tape to the tire.

jimmuller 08-12-19 05:47 PM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 21072369)
I had a new experience riding tubulars today... Apparently, the loose base tape adhesive allowed the tire to slide on the base tape, piling up to form that "hop" near the valve stem, which stopped it from sliding any further.

Wow. How can that even happen with the pressure of the tire holding it against the rim? Was the tire too big for the rim?

seedsbelize 08-15-19 09:56 AM

I just ordered a pair of 36 hole Mavic Monthlery rims. Which model wasn't specified. I found them in country, which is rewarding. I have another pair of rims waiting to be built as well. I guess it's time to stop procrastinating.

jcb3 08-15-19 09:59 AM


Originally Posted by seedsbelize (Post 21071900)
I have Open Pavé on one bike-- my intro to nice tires. Very little available locally, but if I find I like them I can have them shipped to a US address.

Merlin is blowing out 25mm and 27mm green sidewall Pave tubulars for $40 - I picked up a half dozen or so of the 27mm blackwalls while they were in stock.

The 27mm ones measure closer to 25mm.

jcb3 08-15-19 10:03 AM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 21072369)
Apparently, the loose base tape adhesive allowed the tire to slide on the base tape, piling up to form that "hop" near the valve stem, which stopped it from sliding any further.

I have had a hop appear as a result of a poor glue job (by me).

I've heard barge cement is the ticket for gluing the basetape back on

seedsbelize 08-15-19 10:06 AM


Originally Posted by jcb3 (Post 21076767)
Merlin is blowing out 25mm and 27mm green sidewall Pave tubulars for $40 - I picked up a half dozen or so of the 27mm blackwalls while they were in stock.

The 27mm ones measure closer to 25mm.

Thanks.

squirtdad 08-15-19 03:08 PM


Originally Posted by seedsbelize (Post 21071890)
That plan is off. I contacted them and found the shipping to be much more than the tires
I have since found both Challenge and Tufo available locally. And a pair of Mavic rims, if they are still available when I get home from vacation. I'm looking forward to trying something new.

I have posted these before .....not sure if UK bike shops are as good a deal for Mexico. Challenge elite pro, I put them on and they have a great ride, removable valve core (good for sealant), 220 tpi look well made I don't have many mile on them so can speak to durablity

$26 https://www.probikekit.com/bicycle-t...B&gclsrc=aw.ds

seedsbelize 08-15-19 06:23 PM


Originally Posted by squirtdad (Post 21077244)
I have posted these before .....not sure if UK bike shops are as good a deal for Mexico. Challenge elite pro, I put them on and they have a great ride, removable valve core (good for sealant), 220 tpi look well made I don't have many mile on them so can speak to durablity

$26 https://www.probikekit.com/bicycle-t...B&gclsrc=aw.ds

I see I can get them locally for just $6 more. I'm reading reviews that say they are butyl and reviews that say latex. What do you have?

squirtdad 08-15-19 06:31 PM


Originally Posted by seedsbelize (Post 21077485)
I see I can get them locally for just $6 more. I'm reading reviews that say they are butyl and reviews that say latex. What do you have?

based on how long they hold air, I would say butyl

seedsbelize 08-18-19 05:08 AM

Upon further research, that info has proven to be incorrect. Amazon.mx has Challenge Strada for around US$45 and Kenda Domestique Slick for $35. The next option is Tufo for somewhat less again. The Stradas are latex, 320 tpi, Kenda, butyl 220 tpi. It is unclear to me whether or not the Tufos can be repaired, since the tube is not a separate thing. Thoughts?

jcb3 08-18-19 06:12 AM


Originally Posted by seedsbelize (Post 21080410)
. It is unclear to me whether or not the Tufos can be repaired, since the tube is not a separate thing. Thoughts?

Tufo's can't be repaired in a traditional sense, because as you say, the tube and tire is a "unibody"

That said, the concept is that the "unibody" makes them more durable and "designed" to work with sealant to seal small leaks.

In both types of tire, a large slice largely makes the tire toast.

For smaller punctures, sealant can be added after or before, as a preventative measure.

Sealant in a traditional tubular has varied results, and the sealant will be squirting from the tube into the casing before it seals.

I had some luck a month or so ago on one of my Vittoria Pave with sealant, held enough to get home, but was not a permanent fix - once I pumped it back up to 80 it held until half way through the next ride, then flatted again.

With the Tufo, the sealant makes more of a permanent fix (except for large cuts).

63rickert 08-18-19 05:20 PM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 21072369)
I had a new experience riding tubulars today. I had mounted a NOS Vittoria Mondiale tire on the rear wheel earlier this spring and have been riding it since. Went for a ride today, and after climbing the hill at High Cliff State Park noticed a regular "thump-thump-thump" from the rear wheel. Dismounted and took a look, expecting to see a casing failure causing the tire to bulge. No such thing; all I saw was the edge of the base tape looking loose in a couple places. No problem; I'll take care of it when I get home. But what was causing that "thump-thump-thump?" Looked closer and saw about a 5mm "hop" in the tire near the valve stem. Not the rim, the tire. The casing was the same width all along, so it didn't seem to be an impending casing failure. Decided to play it safe and cut my ride short, returning home with no problems. Went to pull the tire off the rim but when I deflated the tire, it literally fell off the base tape. My glue job holding the base tape to the rim held up fine, but Vittoria's glue job holding the base tape to the tire failed completely! Apparently, the loose base tape adhesive allowed the tire to slide on the base tape, piling up to form that "hop" near the valve stem, which stopped it from sliding any further. So, now I need to find replacement base tape and a decent adhesive to hold the tape to the tire.

Had something similar about a year ago with a Schwalbe S-One. When I stopped for the flat there was no adhesive at all between carcass of tire and base tape. Tire had hunched up a little in front of valve and that area of tire had many small cuts. On an otherwise totally uncut tire. There was no thump thunp before the flat. Or I didn't feel it because it was a 30mm tire. Mondiale is a basic tire, mine was top of the line and two failures sound about the same.

My tire was well worn and punctured near valve so I just let it go. You could glue the carcass of tire direct to rim. All you lose is the ability to re-stitch and patch the next flat. For a while I was manic about checking that my tires were glued and glued. It could happen. We both lived to tell tale.

63rickert 08-18-19 05:35 PM

And now that I've told a horror story try not to be put off. Just a great tire. If you have the clearance for a 30mm tire worth a try. The current version (or current label) is called Schwalbe G-One. Available from Probikekit at the moment for $48.99. Free shipping over $79. They have ultralight butyl tubes that hold air for days, months if you use sealant. If you didn't know it wasn't latex you'd never know.


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