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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

Road Fan 11-28-19 09:01 PM


Originally Posted by Miele Man (Post 21226756)
I have a number of tubular wheelsets with Shimano Uniglide freehubs. A couple of them are Dura Ace 6 or 7-speed ones. I also have a set that's Campagnolo Triomphe with a freewheel. Plus I have one orphan rear wheel that's a MICHE 8-speed cassette. I don't recall whether it's a MICHE hub or a Campagnolo one.

I recently mounted Hutchinson tubular tires on my Triomphe hub tubulars. I'm still trying to get a bit of a high spot out of the rear wheel.
What I'd really like to do is get a couple of pairs of rims that i could simply swap with the tubular rims on two of those wheelsets. I mean by taping the clincher rim to to the existing tubular rim and then transferring the spokes to the new rims.

Btw, one day due to absolute necessity I discovered that you CAN use a tubular tire on a clincher rim in an emergency. Just pump the tubular tire up until it's hard. I rode it to a bike shop the day after I did that and the guys there were astounded.

Cheers

I did this! I had a set of wheels, 32 hole Shimano 6207 freewheel low flange hubs with Mavic MA-40 14 mm clincher rims. I needed to make a set of wheels with 18 mm rims to better support a set of 32 mm tires for a long tour. I wanted to use Sun CR-18 rims. Some research into the makers data showed the two rims had the same ERD and the same spoke length. After confirming my conclusions from several commercial wheel builders, I went ahead to swap the rims over and tension up the spokes. It all worked out very well - after 9 years I'm still using the same CR18 wheels with 32 mm Paselas on my Trek.

Miele Man 11-28-19 09:01 PM


Originally Posted by 63rickert (Post 21226828)
Flat rims are pretty much all interchangeable. Flat means flat. Vintage clincher rims used to be just as flat as tubular rims. Spend some time looking up ERD of the rims you're thinking of. Then calculate spoke length and see how little difference 2mm of ERD makes. Finally check how the existing spokes thread into existing rims. Newer clincher rims are taller than vintage tubulars, meaning they take shorter spokes. But if the spoke is 2mm below the top of nipple it will make no difference.

Be careful with the tubular on a clincher rim. Use high pressure to keep it on. Don't expect it to last long. The tubular will squirm a lot and the sidewalls wear against edge of rim. Base tape is all inside well of rim and load is sidewall of tire to lip of rim.

Thanks for all that. I wouldn't run the tubular on the clincher rim for long. I only used it as an emergency tire until I could get home and from there to the bike shop the next day.

Cheers

Miele Man 11-28-19 09:04 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 21226847)
I did this! I had a set of wheels, 32 hole Shimano 6207 freewheel low flange hubs with Mavic MA-40 14 mm clincher rims. I needed to make a set of wheels with 18 mm rims to better support a set of 32 mm tires for a long tour. I wanted to use Sun CR-18 rims. Some research into the makers data showed the two rims had the same ERD and the same spoke length. After confirming my conclusions from several commercial wheel builders, I went ahead to swap the rims over and tension up the spokes. It all worked out very well - after 9 years I'm still using the same CR18 wheels with 32 mm Paselas on my Trek.

I thank you very much for that information. I'll look and see if I can get a pair of those Sun CR-18 rims.

Cheers

crank_addict 11-29-19 02:14 AM

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...21d506de60.png
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ab8010e066.png
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d1de54c274.png

jimmuller 11-29-19 07:15 AM

I've posted this story before. On my commute home one day I came upon a poor soul with a flat and neither repair stuff nor knowledge of what to do about it. He said was hoping a car would stop but he was waiting in a very bad place for that, no one would see him and couldn't stop there anyway. I was riding sewups so put one of my spares on his rear wheel, pumped it up to a reasonable pressure, instructed him not to take the turns too hard, and then followed him the two or three miles or so to a bike shop where I reclaimed my tire. It worked out well.

bgross 11-29-19 10:17 AM

Reminds me of another “stranded flat” story.
A few years ago I was working support at a century event in San Diego. Mid afternoon John Howard rode In after a training ride. He had a flat (and somewhat ugly) rear tire. Seems he’d punctured about five miles out... and rode in without air. Pretty hilly area, too.
What an animal.

Miele Man 11-29-19 10:55 AM

Might as well ask here.

I have a couple of tubulars I took off of older wheels. A problem was that some of the base/rim tape separated from the tire. There's still a lot of tape on the tire and the base/rim tape did not break. Can it be safely glued on with a good quality contact cement?

Thanks and cheers

Salamandrine 11-29-19 11:00 AM


Originally Posted by obuckler (Post 21226494)

Can anyone tell me what the mysterious wire thingamajig is, and what it does? I vaguely recollect something like this, but have no idea what it's supposed to do. Dunlop kits were before my time. I always used Velox. Stumped. I've patched a gazillion and one sew ups, but never used a tool like that. WAG. Maybe you're supposed to heat it up with the Zippo you keep in the jersey pocket along with the pack of Gitanes, and it's used to vulcanize cuts??

Road Fan 11-29-19 12:14 PM


Originally Posted by Miele Man (Post 21226851)
I thank you very much for that information. I'll look and see if I can get a pair of those Sun CR-18 rims.

Cheers

Another one that I believe would match is the tubular Mavic GP-4, FWIW.

63rickert 11-29-19 01:00 PM


Originally Posted by bgross (Post 21227137)
Reminds me of another “stranded flat” story.
A few years ago I was working support at a century event in San Diego. Mid afternoon John Howard rode In after a training ride. He had a flat (and somewhat ugly) rear tire. Seems he’d punctured about five miles out... and rode in without air. Pretty hilly area, too.
What an animal.

John Howard stories!
OK. John Howard and tubulars.
Think it was '67 Cross Nationals. Could of been '68 or '69 too. Whichever one was at Palos Forest Preserve just west of Chicago. Tiger Johnson created course. Howard shows up on his road bike. No cross tubulars available so use lightest anything. He raced on #1 reds, 195gram time trial tires. Two flat tires most of the race. Of course he won. Watching him find traction on steep gullies, either up or down, was a lesson. Especially uphill with a low gear of 42x24 in leaf litter and dirt. Still don't know how it was possible, it was possible because it was Howard.

obuckler 11-29-19 01:21 PM


Originally Posted by Salamandrine (Post 21227182)
Can anyone tell me what the mysterious wire thingamajig is, and what it does? I vaguely recollect something like this, but have no idea what it's supposed to do. Dunlop kits were before my time. I always used Velox. Stumped. I've patched a gazillion and one sew ups, but never used a tool like that. WAG. Maybe you're supposed to heat it up with the Zippo you keep in the jersey pocket along with the pack of Gitanes, and it's used to vulcanize cuts??

next week I’ll have time to look at the instructions and will share what that wire thing is for (if no one else answers earlier). There is also what looks like a small stubby yellow candle and have no idea what needs to be heated. My limited patching experience did not involve heat.

Salamandrine 11-29-19 02:48 PM


Originally Posted by obuckler (Post 21227286)
next week I’ll have time to look at the instructions and will share what that wire thing is for (if no one else answers earlier). There is also what looks like a small stubby yellow candle and have no idea what needs to be heated. My limited patching experience did not involve heat.

I'd appreciate that. :thumb: Whatever other mysterious vintage patching instructions you discover I'd also be interested in. I'm just totally speculating about heating. Maybe it is to be used with the mysterious yellow tube of "TREAD STOPPING COMPOUND" hiding below it.

I can help with the yellow candle thing. It's a crayon for marking where the puncture is. Makes things a lot easier to see, especially if it's a pinhole puncture.

63rickert 11-29-19 03:53 PM


Originally Posted by Salamandrine (Post 21227345)
I'd appreciate that. :thumb: Whatever other mysterious vintage patching instructions you discover I'd also be interested in. I'm just totally speculating about heating. Maybe it is to be used with the mysterious yellow tube of "TREAD STOPPING COMPOUND" hiding below it.

I can help with the yellow candle thing. It's a crayon for marking where the puncture is. Makes things a lot easier to see, especially if it's a pinhole puncture.

Tread Stopping Compound is no mystery. Black goo to fill cuts in tread. It stuck, it stayed stuck. Dried fast enough in tread and remained fresh in tube a very long time.

The one I never was able to do was refilling the talc puffer. Tremendously handy and kinda fun. Friends could get fresh talc into the little hole, I could only get it out.

Clueless about that piece of wire then and now.

Salamandrine 11-29-19 04:17 PM


Originally Posted by 63rickert (Post 21227388)
Tread Stopping Compound is no mystery. Black goo to fill cuts in tread. It stuck, it stayed stuck. Dried fast enough in tread and remained fresh in tube a very long time.

Oh, right. Makes sense. I never used the stuff in a tube, but I do recollect some sort of little sheet of tar like substance that was used for the same purpose. Haven't seen it in decades. Maybe that was melted in. It's been so long I can't remember. Shoe goo works reasonably well - for modern times.

Miele Man 11-29-19 05:09 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 21227237)
Another one that I believe would match is the tubular Mavic GP-4, FWIW.

Ah, but I want to repalce a few tubular rims with clincher rims.

Cheers

ThermionicScott 11-29-19 05:52 PM


Originally Posted by Miele Man (Post 21227460)
Ah, but I want to repalce a few tubular rims with clincher rims.

Cheers

CR18s aren't bad rims for the price, but I could think of better options if you want to keep the lightweight feel of your tubular wheels. Pacenti Brevets, for one, would be just as wide, but much lighter and a better visual match to classic tubular rims.

Road Fan 11-30-19 06:15 AM


Originally Posted by Miele Man (Post 21227460)
Ah, but I want to replace a few tubular rims with clincher rims.

Cheers

Just sharing info, bud! Do what you want.

What it all means is, if you want to replace a Mavic GP-4 or tubular rim with the same ERD with a clincher using the same spoke pattern, you can use either a Sun CR-18 or a Mavic MA-40; the same set of spokes in the same pattern will work. Other Mavic clinchers may also work, but you have to either measure the ERDs or check the available data carefully.

Road Fan 11-30-19 06:16 AM


Originally Posted by ThermionicScott (Post 21227496)
CR18s aren't bad rims for the price, but I could think of better options if you want to keep the lightweight feel of your tubular wheels. Pacenti Brevets, for one, would be just as wide, but much lighter and a better visual match to classic tubular rims.

I haven't tried Pacenti, but sounds worth it on my next build.

At the time of this touring build, I was out of work and at the bottom of the budget. The rim change was just about the only new part on the whole bike. As delivered, the wheels dented easily. I went through the spokes, loosening, retensioning, and stress-relieving, and they have been stable for about 9 years now. So for moderate load (I weighed about 180 and it was a SAGGED tour), I think the durability of the Sun rims is fine. Lighter would be better, however!

Road Fan 11-30-19 06:49 AM


Originally Posted by 63rickert (Post 21227388)
Tread Stopping Compound is no mystery. Black goo to fill cuts in tread. It stuck, it stayed stuck. Dried fast enough in tread and remained fresh in tube a very long time.

The one I never was able to do was refilling the talc puffer. Tremendously handy and kinda fun. Friends could get fresh talc into the little hole, I could only get it out.

Clueless about that piece of wire then and now.

Recently (past 10 years) I've used Shoe Goo as a filler for tread blemishes.

I think the little wire dingus is for pushing the innertube into the tire carcass as you finish the sewing. I use an X-acto knife to cut the seam open, and use the handle of the X-acto to push the tube back from the point of the needle. If I always sew the new thread into the holes that the old thread used, I get a repaired tire that does not look like a snake is living inside it.

The Effeto company has some compounds for gluing on the base tape. Anybody tried it? Saw it on Nashbar's site. I also saw two levels of Velox tape: standard but modernized Jantex, and new much more $$ Belgian tape. The new Jantex is now stated to require glue to be used as well. Anybody know what this process is, and how well it works?

I've used the old-fashioned Jantex a few times in the past few years, but without any added tubular cement. I think it worked well, so I'm a bit confused ATMO.

jcb3 11-30-19 07:51 AM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 21227852)
Recently (past 10 years) I've used Shoe Goo as a filler for tread blemishes.

I think the little wire dingus is for pushing the innertube into the tire carcass as you finish the sewing. I use an X-acto knife to cut the seam open, and use the handle of the X-acto to push the tube back from the point of the needle. If I always sew the new thread into the holes that the old thread used, I get a repaired tire that does not look like a snake is living inside it.

The Effeto company has some compounds for gluing on the base tape. Anybody tried it? Saw it on Nashbar's site. I also saw two levels of Velox tape: standard but modernized Jantex, and new much more $$ Belgian tape. The new Jantex is now stated to require glue to be used as well. Anybody know what this process is, and how well it works?

I've used the old-fashioned Jantex a few times in the past few years, but without any added tubular cement. I think it worked well, so I'm a bit confused ATMO.

from what I’ve read, glue & “Belgian” tape is a cyclocross gluing method

jcb3 11-30-19 08:00 AM


Originally Posted by Miele Man (Post 21227176)
Might as well ask here.

I have a couple of tubulars I took off of older wheels. A problem was that some of the base/rim tape separated from the tire. There's still a lot of tape on the tire and the base/rim tape did not break. Can it be safely glued on with a good quality contact cement?

Thanks and cheers

can be glued - how safe it will be is hard to judge, but I say try it and be careful for a while. Remainder of base glue could be weak also. Same approach I use for testing new glue or tape jobs.

traditionally base tape glue was latex, aka carpet cement. These days “barge cement” brand contact adhesive gets high marks, including by me.

let us know how it goes. My struggle is always how to get the curved portion not to pucker when inflated, as I usually use a flat clamp.

ThermionicScott 11-30-19 02:14 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 21227841)
I haven't tried Pacenti, but sounds worth it on my next build.

At the time of this touring build, I was out of work and at the bottom of the budget. The rim change was just about the only new part on the whole bike. As delivered, the wheels dented easily. I went through the spokes, loosening, retensioning, and stress-relieving, and they have been stable for about 9 years now. So for moderate load (I weighed about 180 and it was a SAGGED tour), I think the durability of the Sun rims is fine. Lighter would be better, however!

Yeah, it probably comes off like a diss when I suggest alternatives to CR18s, but that's honestly not my intent! They are quality rims, and were a definite upgrade on my English 3-speed. :thumb:

Road Fan 11-30-19 05:07 PM

Re the 3-speed: careful of the drillings! I had trouble finding a 40/32 pair for my Rudge. I could still go for 36 on the front with a more modern hub if I cold-set the fork, but I found a 40/32 alloy set with hookless beads. I plan to use 27 x 1 ¼ Paselas with steel beads. they will also work well on my original steel rims. They also don't require replacing the original GB brake calipers.

Also thanks for the consideration, but the touring bike project I was talking about was put on the road 9 years ago. The consequences of all my mistakes have been discovered by now.

Classtime 11-30-19 07:02 PM


Originally Posted by Miele Man (Post 21227176)
Might as well ask here.

I have a couple of tubulars I took off of older wheels. A problem was that some of the base/rim tape separated from the tire. There's still a lot of tape on the tire and the base/rim tape did not break. Can it be safely glued on with a good quality contact cement?

Thanks and cheers

Look up to post #1341 to see my method and the glue found at ACE HW. The painters tape gets all those curves to match up and/or creates new curves and removes old ones.

jcb3 12-01-19 07:59 AM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 21228558)
Look up to post #1341 to see my method and the glue found at ACE HW. The painters tape gets all those curves to match up and/or creates new curves and removes old ones.

sweet - good idea with the painters tape


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