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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

obuckler 12-01-19 09:51 PM

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8ac6342ec.jpegOk I got the instructions scanned and found out what everything is. The wire thing is a tube extractor. What I thought was a little stubby yellow candle is actually a talc puffer to redust the tube before shoving it back in. My kit is missing a tube of solution which is used to clean the tube before applying a patch. Same for putting back the rim strip. They never explain what the cement is for. I guess if you make your own patch out of latex?



Attempting to post a photo or a pdf. Not sure how to do a pdf so maybe just a photo of the kit list first.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...773057a7b.jpeg

obuckler 12-01-19 09:58 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Attempt to post PDFs

reconnaissance 12-02-19 11:33 PM

Sidewall treatment
 
I used to use liquid latex to re-coat the sidewalls and to seal the edges of the tape to the sidewall. Havenít seen it around in a long time. What do you guys use?

Salamandrine 12-03-19 09:46 AM


Originally Posted by obuckler (Post 21229750)
Ok I got the instructions scanned and found out what everything is. The wire thing is a tube extractor. What I thought was a little stubby yellow candle is actually a talc puffer to redust the tube before shoving it back in. My kit is missing a tube of solution which is used to clean the tube before applying a patch. Same for putting back the rim strip. They never explain what the cement is for. I guess if you make your own patch out of latex?


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...773057a7b.jpeg

Thanks for scanning that! good history. Oh, a tube extractor. Of course! ;) Some of you guessed right, not me. :( Hmm, I guess it's so you can snip only a few threads, and then fish inside the tire casing for the tube. Less sewing back up to do. But the instructions say snip open 4 inches. With that much room fingers are the preferred extraction device.

The "solution" is the same as the vulcanizing fluid in a standard patch kit. Apply to tube, let it get tacky, apply patch. The rim cement is for gluing tire to rim.

Dean51 12-03-19 10:07 AM


Originally Posted by reconnaissance (Post 21231248)
I used to use liquid latex to re-coat the sidewalls and to seal the edges of the tape to the sidewall. Havenít seen it around in a long time. What do you guys use?

I've had success re-coating sidewalls of old tubulars with the tent seam sealer pictured below. I don't recall where the idea came from....'musta read about it somewhere. I found this product at my local outdoor store.

Dean

https://live.staticflickr.com/4871/3...5503a7b1_k.jpgIMG_3146

obuckler 12-03-19 01:56 PM


Originally Posted by Salamandrine (Post 21231568)
Thanks for scanning that! good history. Oh, a tube extractor. Of course! ;) Some of you guessed right, not me. :( Hmm, I guess it's so you can snip only a few threads, and then fish inside the tire casing for the tube. Less sewing back up to do. But the instructions say snip open 4 inches. With that much room fingers are the preferred extraction device.

The "solution" is the same as the vulcanizing fluid in a standard patch kit. Apply to tube, let it get tacky, apply patch. The rim cement is for gluing tire to rim.

i figured the same for the wire thingóit could help make the opening smaller. I totally missed the list description for ďrimĒ cement and the tube is just labeled cement.

I donít plan on using any of this (maybe the wire thing) but is is way cool to have.

Salamandrine 12-03-19 02:08 PM

It is cool to have. I'd just keep it as is too.

FWIW, it's generally a good idea to open up the traditional 3-4 inches because it gives you enough room to inspect the inside of the casing for damage and glass shard remnants sticking in. Not at all unusual to pull them out of the inside when repairing a flat.

I suppose though if you pulled a thumbtack or the like out of your tire, you could just snip enough threads to get at the tube with that thingamajig 'extractor', and save yourself some sewing.

I was taught to use a blanket stitch to sew back up. Anyone else do it this way? It's only slightly slower than a basic overhand stitch, but more secure.

obuckler 12-03-19 05:50 PM


Originally Posted by Salamandrine (Post 21231929)
I was taught to use a blanket stitch to sew back up. Anyone else do it this way? It's only slightly slower than a basic overhand stitch, but more secure.

well Iíve only done a couple and Iíve been able to mimic the stitch that already was there successfully.

crank_addict 12-04-19 02:38 PM

The late Jobst Brandt on tubulars should be your sticky of Mastik knowledge.

crank_addict 01-29-20 01:58 PM

//// 1979 ////

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...71ad63d1f4.jpg

pastorbobnlnh 01-31-20 01:07 PM

If you like Schwalbe One HT 28mm tubulars in all black, they are at this moment $26.30 (plus shipping) on Amazon. They are back ordered from Amazon UK and my total for two with shipping was $68. I won't be charged until they ship.

Wileyone 01-31-20 01:38 PM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 21307806)
If you like Schwalbe One HT 28mm tubulars in all black, they are at this moment $26.30 (plus shipping) on Amazon. They are back ordered from Amazon UK and my total for two with shipping was $68. I won't be charged until they ship.

Those are really nice tires. It's too bad they dropped the gumwall version.

pastorbobnlnh 01-31-20 01:47 PM


Originally Posted by Wileyone (Post 21307834)
Those are really nice tires. It's too bad they dropped the gumwall version.

I absolutely agree! They look great on my '71 Paramount.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3102e16167.jpg

RobbieTunes 02-03-20 08:15 PM

Can't win, and timing is everything
 
OK, so I like tubulars lately. A nice clean taped tubular is just nice to ride, looks good, and is generally very reliable.
The wheels are generally very good bargains, because, "tubular" is almost a 4-letter word.

I have them on several older bikes, in skinwall:
Teledyne Titan on polished box sections. Built by speedevil
Centurion Comp TA on polished slightly aeros. Builit by Otto Rax
Raleigh Competition on anodized box sections (8/9/10 DA 7403, from a BF member)
Guerciotti on anodized box section (NOS Ultegra 6700/Mavix Reflix, $100 on CL)
Cinelli Equipe Centurion (Clean DA 7800/Ambrosio Montreals, from a BF member).
Classy and C&V. And very reasonably priced because you say "tubular" and people run.

I had them on two "newer bikes," in blackwall:
Trek Y-Foil on DA C35 carbon wheels, bought brand new, with tires mounted, from a shop for about 1/4 the original price.
Cadex CFR-1 on Zipp 404/303 wheels, a one-season set, with tires, about 1/3 MSRP.
They are light, fast wheels on light fast bikes. Same deal with the pricing, used. "Tubular" seems to kill a wheel sale.

The only flat I've ever had on a tubular was a bad valve, a Tufo Carbon Composite tire. $130 tires should not have flats, but I forgave it. It was old.
I discussed this with a friend, and he said "put 2 oz of sealant in your tubulars, and just ride." I did. Seemed OK.

So, this brings me to posting on "Totally Tubular."

I keep my Y-Foil in St. Louis, where I visit every weekend, thereabouts. it's geared for the hills we often ride, and comfortable enough for the indoor sessions during the winter, in a shop "studio" with other cyclists. The pre-ordained rpm, wattage, and ascent/descent settings are designed, I'm sure, to kill me. It runs carbon DA C35 wheels, tubulars. The cycling simulator uses a tension setting calibrated by pressure at the rear wheel, more or less based on your weight and performance levels.

My first flat in this studio was on a different bike, on clinchers mounted to tubeless-ready wheels. Of course, I pinched the tube getting the tire back on. In front of 10 other riders. So, I dropped the clinchers and put tubeless tires on those wheels, which are hard to wrap my head around, so I changed to the Y-Foil for my "go-to" bike at my home away from home. I figured the tubular tires on the Y-Foil would also end the problem with flats.

It didn't. The tubular messing with me saga begins. Two Saturdays ago, I flatted my rear tubular, on the carbon rim, in the studio. You only have an hour on the bike, so I jumped off, inserted Tufo sealant, and pumped it back up. Voila! I'm a genius. The class is impressed. Hell, I'm impressed. The next day, it was down a bit, but I pumped it up, and rode indoors for 3 hours, about 55 miles. I figured the sealant (added to the 2 oz already there) was doing it's job. And it sort of was.

I'm back in St. Louis this past Saturday morning, the 1 hour ride is at 8:30, and at 7 am I'm in the basement, cussing. The rear tubular will not hold air. I can't get sealant into it. Worse, there is a hard ball of something, in the tubular, right at the valve. I surmise it's sealant, trying to fill some hole in/at the valve. I pull the core, and the valve extension, and dislodge it with a coat hangar, then re-insert all pieces and re-inflate: Nope. Won't hold air. Then I also notice the tread separating, peeling right off the casing, likely from the heat and pressure of the tensioned trainer. For emergency purposes, I swap in a 10-sp wheel from my friend's backup bike onto my 11-sp bike and go ride the 1-hour session (hill repeats!) in the studio. Shower up, and begin the search for a tubular tire and tape. It's going to be in the 60's the next day, and we're going outdoors, and I need a freaking tire. I notice one in the shop, but it's $123.95, and I'm kind of hoping to do better. It's a big city, I should find one. Right? Right?

I call my friend's "go-to" shop, a truly great bike shop filled with C&V racing classics and at least 2 excellent mechanics. They know tubulars. They have none in stock. In an era of low margins and just-in-time supply chains, this is not uncommon, since they can usually get stuff in a couple of days. This reflects their market. I leave and call 4 other shops, none of whom know what I'm talking about. Almost all think I'm talking about tubeless. The first guy would hand the phone to an older guy and he'd know what a tubular tire was, then would say "we don't have any."

As I was running up against a deadline, I was actually thinking of buying an orphan clincher rear wheel, throwing a tire on it,and putting that into play the next day (a real bike fashion faux pas). I check CL and leave a couple of texts/emails/messages. I call back to the shop that has the studio, and man, it's $123.95, but I needed a tire, ASAP. I tell them I'm on the way. I get there and ask about tape. Here we go again. They search through their supply of stuff and find a double roll of tubular tape, $39.95. Shout out to Big Shark Bikes, because while the tire and tape were expensive, it's not like these are discounted volume items, and they did have them. With tax, I'm now $178 into being able to ride the next day IF I can get the flat off. The original installer went heavy on the glue, so it didn't look like fun, but I had a few hours.

While in the shop, a couple of my CL hits respond. A guy with Bontrager Aeolus 5's responds, and he wants to meet me at the shop I was actually in. I weighed the afternoon of trying to remove a stuck tire and mount a new tubular, vs. just swapping in a set of wheels. We meet, and the Aeolus wheels have tires mounted, Gatorskins. I buy the wheels, relay my story, and he tells me how much he hates tubulars, having had 3 flats in his last half-Ironman. Now, I realize I'd just spent $178 on a tire and tape, and another $350 on a set of swap-in wheels. Returning the tire and tape would be wrong, and the shop found it for me, stores my bike between Sat/Sun studio sessions, and with my luck, I'd need that tire and tape eventually.

My girlfriend still wants to go to her go-to shop, and it's always a nice visit, so we head to Billy Goat Bikes and they swap my cassette over, free, and I buy a small tube of Mastik, because I figure if I need a tube of cement, some time, somewhere, in the area, better have it on hand. The Y-Foil now wears the Aeolus wheels, Gatorskin 25's, and rides a bit ponderously, but there's air in them there tires. I put the Dura Ace wheels, the new tire, the tape, and the Mastic in the back of the car, in time out to consider the error of their ways.

A great ride ensues the next day, a metric century in St. Louis in February, who'da thunk it? The Gatorskins make the bike feel like it's wearing combat boots, but hey, no flats.

I get home, finally get the tubular (Vittoria Corsa CX) off the rim, ripping the cloth, of course. The valve extender had broken, down in the valve body. The sealant attacked the leak, and tried to plug it up, causing the "ball" of sealant inside the tire. Whenever I tried to pump it up, this dislodged the sealant, so there was no hope of filling it with air. $900 MSRP wheel, $130 MSRP tire, and the $3.50 MSRP valve extension was the culprit. Too much glue at the onset of the mounting ended up being an issue, as well. Can't save the tire, anyway. Face tread peeling off, bungled valve, and ripped cloth liner. Better in a studio than the side of the road.

My new $123.95 tubular? I get home, and it doesn't match any of my other tubular tires. The weekend cost me $528, but I come away with a 1-year old set of Bontrager Aeolus 5's (Gatorskins mounted), a new Vittoria Graphene tubular, a double roll of tubular rim tape, and a small tube of Mastic. I did find a new Tufo Carbon Composite in my box, so the Dura Ace C35 tubular set is once again full of air and ready to go.

I'm not putting sealant in any tubulars any more, unless it's "on the spot" with a flat.
I'm also double-checking my tubulars the day before a ride. I shouldn't have to, but need it, for a while.

Give me a nice C&V set of tubular rims, a new set of nice tubular skinwalls, tape, and a clean rim any way, and I think I'll be OK.
Just not on a tensioned trainer, and no sealant. And probably no more modern tubular wheels. Until I see the next smokin' deal, ha!

There, rambling done.

79pmooney 02-03-20 08:25 PM

I use a speedy stitcher to sew up tubulars. That waxed twine is really strong and the stitching is easy. (I say "use". Haven't repaired a sewup in more than 20 years, but I do have 25 years on them and rode nothing else those years.)

Ben

Wileyone 02-03-20 10:49 PM


Originally Posted by Dean51 (Post 21231598)
I've had success re-coating sidewalls of old tubulars with the tent seam sealer pictured below. I don't recall where the idea came from....'musta read about it somewhere. I found this product at my local outdoor store.

Dean

https://live.staticflickr.com/4871/3...5503a7b1_k.jpgIMG_3146

Not sure how I would feel going down a steep downhill knowing that my Tire was held together by Tent Glue...

Dean51 02-03-20 11:20 PM


Originally Posted by Wileyone (Post 21312621)
Not sure how I would feel going down a steep downhill knowing that my Tire was held together by Tent Glue...

Is there another product that you would suggest or are you just against rehabbing old tubulars? In my view, "tent" is just a word.

Dean

Wileyone 02-03-20 11:38 PM


Originally Posted by Dean51 (Post 21312641)
Is there another product that you would suggest or are you just against rehabbing old tubulars? In my view, "tent" is just a word.

Dean

When it comes to tires "Old" just does not enter into my mindset. Sure if you are hanging it on a wall have at it. But a tire held toghether with tent glue. Isn't going to be my first pick for a Saturday Morning ride.

RobbieTunes 02-04-20 06:49 AM

Whatever works. Tent seam sealer may = tubular tire cement once you flip the package over and read the ingredients. I've seen seam sealer in so many different configurations, from spray on, brush on, to thick gooey. Almost all the tubular cement I've used has been the same, messy and slow compared to tape. Now, something to put between that loose cloth and the tire casing? seam sealer may be the trick.

RobbieTunes 02-04-20 06:56 AM

Young man, explain yourself.....
 

Originally Posted by crank_addict (Post 21304885)
//// 1979 ////

Ahem... :) Might this be the famous Pirelli calendar?

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1c53f633a5.jpg

San Rensho 02-04-20 07:09 AM

I will say it again, fixing a flat on a tubular is like doing surgery on a snake. And usually the patient dies oh, because the surgical site either bulges or is constricted and the tire never runs true again. Thump Thump Thump Thump Thump as you go down the road.

xbit05 02-04-20 09:36 AM

nice

HPL 02-05-20 03:04 AM

Ridden, but never mounted/repaired
 

Originally Posted by xbit05 (Post 21313073)
nice

Welcome to BF xbit05!

Folks, for all the riding I've done I have never actually mounted and/or repaired a tubular. I have them on multiple bikes, but being that I swap rides regularly I haven't worn out the tires. Even my clinchers get spread out use from riding many different frames; last tire fix was due to a tire blow out from age; not wear. Never used glue, or needle before. Now I want to use my vintage tubular rims that, like mentioned earlier, are readily available and more than reasonably priced, and would be the more appropriate build for my classic projects ('50s-'80s or so). I hear about tape, glue, sealer, and whatnot; but really have no idea about what is required when utilizing a tubular set up. When I have ridden on them I have always been pleased with the ride, and luckily I have not had any flats because I carried no means of repair other than having a pump onboard. Is the tape a substitute for the glue, or does it act the same as the rim tape/liner for a clincher set up? Do I need both "regular" rim tape for protection and "tubular tape" for mounting (plus glue!)? Right now I'm flipping wheelsets back and forth from other frames due to lack of completed wheels for all bikes; both on present rides and for future builds. I have plenty of rims and new tires w/tubes "sewn up" (not by myself), but not mounted. I assume this has been covered much earlier in this thread, but I figured that with the changing times and materials the means of performing this task may have changed in the past couple of decades.

Thanks again for any help; and PLEASE make me feel like an idiot, the learning process will be more ingrained afterwards!

RobbieTunes 02-05-20 05:20 AM


Originally Posted by HPL (Post 21314483)
I hear about tape, glue, sealer, and whatnot; but really have no idea about what is required when utilizing a tubular set up.

Tape or glue, to hold the tire to the rim. Sealer is sometime used when the inner cloth part of the tire starts to separate from the casing, as far as I know. I've not heard of sealer being used to glue a tubular tire to a rim, but "sealer" and "glue" are just terms. The main thing is that the tire needs to be adhered to the rim.


Originally Posted by HPL (Post 21314483)
Is the tape a substitute for the glue, or does it act the same as the rim tape/liner for a clincher set up?

Tape and glue do the same thing. There is no rim tape needed for tubulars.


Originally Posted by HPL (Post 21314483)
Do I need both "regular" rim tape for protection and "tubular tape" for mounting (plus glue!)?

Not at all.


Originally Posted by HPL (Post 21314483)
Thanks again for any help; and PLEASE make me feel like an idiot, the learning process will be more ingrained afterwards!

Not an idiot. Lucky, though, to not have flats.

HPL 02-05-20 07:50 AM


Originally Posted by RobbieTunes (Post 21314520)
Tape or glue, to hold the tire to the rim. Sealer is sometime used when the inner cloth part of the tire starts to separate from the casing, as far as I know. I've not heard of sealer being used to glue a tubular tire to a rim, but "sealer" and "glue" are just terms. The main thing is that the tire needs to be adhered to the rim.

Tape and glue do the same thing. There is no rim tape needed for tubulars.

Thanks Robbie,
I had somewhat surmised what you have iterated in reading other posts, but good to have verification. I've not purchased any of the needed supplies (may be something in my Misc. box) and was curious if the tape was the preferred option over glue other than being less messy. Any preference as to brand? I assume the tape would be more expensive, but I have not done any comparative shopping yet, and I doubt my collective has any of either product on hand.
Yes, a fairly charmed flat free life; but I seem to do a good job of tearing up rims; and never the "cheap" ones.


Thanks again,
HPL


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