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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

FBOATSB 08-24-17 03:30 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19815514)

That stem really looks like the English stem they used on drop bar 10 speeds or upright Raleigh Sprites.

Nice stem but hard to get drop bars through, even if they are the right clamp diameter

Thanks. The last English three speed I ever rode was back in the early sixties. Raleigh Superbe. We called it a "Super Bee".

gster 08-24-17 04:12 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 19815366)
Your bike looks like it has the wide bars of the later Sports. I have a pristine root beer Sports that has 66cm wide bars. I find them too wide for comfort, so my daily rider is a beat up Sports with 55cm bars.

Could be the wider bars....
Hard to tell what's been done to a bike over the last 40 years or so. This one lost it's Dyno hub at some point before it reached me.
As originally found...
Attachment 577740
And yes, I do have the key,

BigChief 08-24-17 04:31 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19815748)
@BigChief does it matter which pin you drive out first? Got the punch but now looking for a suitable work surface. Maybe a piece if hardwood with a hole drilled through it?

Thanks! Found the tutorial, now trying to get my head around the sequence.

No. But when you reassemble, it is far easier to replace the pawl pin first because this leaves you with the long trigger to hold onto while you maneuver the cam/trigger around under spring pressure to line up the second pin. Sure, wood would work. Especially something hard like maple or oak

thumpism 08-24-17 05:01 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19815514)
@FBOATSB

That stem really looks like the English stem they used on drop bar 10 speeds or upright Raleigh Sprites.

Nice stem but hard to get drop bars through, even if they are the right clamp diameter

I have carefully ground away the sides of the clamp down by the pinch bolt in order to get stems like this to accept drop bars. I would not do this for someone else's bike but would and have done so on my own bikes.

3speedslow 08-24-17 06:01 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19815967)
No. But when you reassemble, it is far easier to replace the pawl pin first because this leaves you with the long trigger to hold onto while you maneuver the cam/trigger around under spring pressure to line up the second pin. Sure, wood would work. Especially something hard like maple or oak


Okay so this is how I think it it should be labeled...

plympton 08-24-17 06:51 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19814824)
Yes, the bracket shapes at the steering tube and seat tube along with the button type oiler in the bottom bracket are the features that date the frame to before 1955. The guide wheel lug on the top tube is the feature that dates the frame after 1950. We know the bike was fixed up sometime after the later 60s by the rear fender and pedals, so it's hard to say if it was originally a Dawn or Dawn Tourist. The tourist was supposed to have both the enclosed chaincase and 3 speed hub as standard. I think it would be correct to restore it to either model.

The more I examine images and compare them with mine and then get input from Bikeforum. I'm leaning toward 1950 to 54 also. The chart that I found on the "HeadBadge" called Raleigh Sports Evolution:... intro...."Applies specifically to the Raleigh "Sports Light Roadster" Model 22 prior to 1958, and..." [isn't this a light roadster model 22?] it shows a single speed available on a model 22SG whatever that is, unless SG means single gear.

BigChief 08-24-17 09:00 PM

I don't know much about the older, pre war Raleighs, but except for the high end club type bikes, 28" wheeled roadsters and kids bikes, all the different post war models shared the same "light roadster" frame. They just had different components, names and model numbers.

BigChief 08-25-17 05:24 AM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19816111)
Okay so this is how I think it it should be labeled...

Yup, and be careful as you slide the unit apart after the body pins are out. There's two small pins that connect the chrome lever to the hardened plate. They're loose in their holes and fall right out. You don't want to loose them.

plympton 08-25-17 07:37 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19816411)
I don't know much about the older, pre war Raleighs, but except for the high end club type bikes, 28" wheeled roadsters and kids bikes, all the different post war models shared the same "light roadster" frame. They just had different components, names and model numbers.

Robert Edwards on a blog call Classic 3 Speeds shows the detail of his 1953 Sports Tourist front fork ends. The serial number varifies 1953. His fork dropout is brazed and he says later models are stamped. Everything else about the bike is the same. A look at the 1950 catalog shows solid [stamped] drop outs. I think he confused earlier with later.
Anyway the 50 catalog shows the Dawn Tourist with the little seat bag which my bike has. A small detail but a good detective leave no stone unturned.

Salubrious 08-25-17 09:36 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19816411)
I don't know much about the older, pre war Raleighs, but except for the high end club type bikes, 28" wheeled roadsters and kids bikes, all the different post war models shared the same "light roadster" frame. They just had different components, names and model numbers.

One way to spot a pre-war frame is the top tube is a different diameter from the seat tube. The headset, stem and headlight bracket are different too.

plympton 08-25-17 02:27 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 19817193)
One way to spot a pre-war frame is the top tube is a different diameter from the seat tube. The headset, stem and headlight bracket are different too.

Just looked. Using my tape the top tube is 1" whereas the seat tube and down tube are 1 1/8. I will search headset and light bracket. This light bracket have Raleigh engraved.

arty dave 08-26-17 02:37 AM

>dramatic music<...There will be no frankenABS5 hub...unless someone else can figure it out :)
The reason I thought it might work is that I read somewhere that the gear holding portion of the AB shell was the same size as an AW shell; alas 'tis not so.
The S5 shell is 60mm deep, the AB only 45mm deep
The S5 planet cage is 40mm high, the AB only 25mm
The driver, ball ring, and gear ring are the same for both, and also for the AW hub (they have the same part no's).
I suspect that the planet cage of an AW will also be 40mm high (although different part).

The AB insides were coming apart quite clean, and showing little signs of wear, until I got to the planet pinions - one of the little gears is missing 3 teeth. So weird coz it's such a clean, wholesome looking hub with just tiny tips of shiny on the ends of the pawls. Also it ran through the gears well when I first got the bike, with no strange noises. I did find the missing teeth when I wiped out the inside of the hub shell.

soooo I guess I'll be pulling apart the spare AW hub tomorrow to harvest a planet pinion gear. I'll measure the planet cage for interested SA nerds (like me). Lucky I like playing with these little guys.

thumpism 08-26-17 06:18 AM

Nice camelback from the local CL. Not mine.

https://richmond.craigslist.org/bik/...278512864.html

1959 Hercules men's 3 speed - $67 (chester)

https://images.craigslist.org/00N0N_...zE_600x450.jpg

Good shape

gster 08-26-17 07:15 AM


Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 19818859)
>dramatic music<...There will be no frankenABS5 hub...unless someone else can figure it out :)
The reason I thought it might work is that I read somewhere that the gear holding portion of the AB shell was the same size as an AW shell; alas 'tis not so.
The S5 shell is 60mm deep, the AB only 45mm deep
The S5 planet cage is 40mm high, the AB only 25mm
The driver, ball ring, and gear ring are the same for both, and also for the AW hub (they have the same part no's).
I suspect that the planet cage of an AW will also be 40mm high (although different part).

The AB insides were coming apart quite clean, and showing little signs of wear, until I got to the planet pinions - one of the little gears is missing 3 teeth. So weird coz it's such a clean, wholesome looking hub with just tiny tips of shiny on the ends of the pawls. Also it ran through the gears well when I first got the bike, with no strange noises. I did find the missing teeth when I wiped out the inside of the hub shell.

soooo I guess I'll be pulling apart the spare AW hub tomorrow to harvest a planet pinion gear. I'll measure the planet cage for interested SA nerds (like me). Lucky I like playing with these little guys.

Please post some photos of the "guts".

JohnDThompson 08-26-17 07:16 AM


Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 19818859)
I guess I'll be pulling apart the spare AW hub tomorrow to harvest a planet pinion gear.

I have a good supply of AW pinion gears if you're interested. Also some SW pinions and other parts, if anyone is a glutton for punishment.

3speedslow 08-26-17 07:28 AM


Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 19818859)
>dramatic music<...There will be no frankenABS5 hub...unless someone else can figure it out :)
The reason I thought it might work is that I read somewhere that the gear holding portion of the AB shell was the same size as an AW shell; alas 'tis not so.
The S5 shell is 60mm deep, the AB only 45mm deep
The S5 planet cage is 40mm high, the AB only 25mm
The driver, ball ring, and gear ring are the same for both, and also for the AW hub (they have the same part no's).
I suspect that the planet cage of an AW will also be 40mm high (although different part).

The AB insides were coming apart quite clean, and showing little signs of wear, until I got to the planet pinions - one of the little gears is missing 3 teeth. So weird coz it's such a clean, wholesome looking hub with just tiny tips of shiny on the ends of the pawls. Also it ran through the gears well when I first got the bike, with no strange noises. I did find the missing teeth when I wiped out the inside of the hub shell.

soooo I guess I'll be pulling apart the spare AW hub tomorrow to harvest a planet pinion gear. I'll measure the planet cage for interested SA nerds (like me). Lucky I like playing with these little guys.

I wish I was as comfy with the hub bits as you seem to be! Gonna take some time.

BigChief 08-26-17 08:10 AM

Never worked on a AB hub, but I've always been impressed with how clean and unworn the gears have been in the AW hubs I've had apart. Even from bikes that obviously had tons of use. In my old job I sometimes had to rebuild electric motor gear reduction boxes. The gear teeth never broke off until after they were worn thin. Maybe these gears weren't hardened properly. I'd replace all of them just in case.

Salubrious 08-26-17 10:34 AM


Originally Posted by plympton (Post 19817942)
Just looked. Using my tape the top tube is 1" whereas the seat tube and down tube are 1 1/8. I will search headset and light bracket. This light bracket have Raleigh engraved.

I can't say how the frames worked on the rod brake machines.

BigChief 08-26-17 12:27 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 19819459)
I can't say how the frames worked on the rod brake machines.

The frames were the same. They just drilled two holes through the brackets at the downtube joints to mount the rod brake linkage to the rear wheel.

arty dave 08-26-17 08:25 PM

Thanks for the offer John but I'm in Australia. I'll use the pinions from my spare AW if they're in good condition; and I can order some replacements, 4 for $4 from a bike store in Australia.
3speedslow I was reluctant to crack my 1st hub open, but the insides only have so many parts - and the parts all form 4 main sections plus the axle. I followed the SA disassembly/assembly instructions and watched the youtube clips.
gster I'll put up some photos later, I'd like to get one of them all together once I've opened the AW.
BC I'm impressed that the hub kept working normally without the teeth bits destroying anything inside the hub! - and for how many years? it's a '63 hub! I guess they just stayed stuck to the shell wall out of the way of the internals.

3speedslow 08-26-17 08:45 PM

For the SA hubs, once you have the cog off there is a cap with 2 notches up against he hub shell. What does the tool look like to remove that cap? My friends LBS has an even darker corner where all the old tools of 40+ yrs are thrown. I want to go dig in there and see if he has some internal hubs gems.

Thanks!

PS. Still looking for a work surface to put the punch to the shifters. I want to do a good job!

PSS. The owners of that Raleigh Twenty on CL never returned any of my emails after I told them the machine was in a sad state.

SirMike1983 08-26-17 08:49 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19804537)
@SirMike1983 I'd like to ask a favor. On your 1958 Sports, does the head tube and seat tube lugs at the top tube joint look like this black one or this green one? Thanks

Attachment 576894

Attachment 576895

It's the second, sharper type on my 1958 Sports.

SirMike1983 08-26-17 08:50 PM

Cleaning and riding today: cleaning and dusting a pair of 1947 Schwinn three-speeds: a fillet brazed Continental and an electroforged New World.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nIgfOkd8w...826_135413.jpg

And off for a ride on this Raleigh Sports

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-osrty_cxC...826_182044.jpg

arty dave 08-27-17 12:27 AM

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4362/...58f82679_k.jpgIMG20170827154842 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

The AW internals are at the back, S5 in the middle, AB at the front.
For a proper clean I would lever out the ball bearing retainers (labyrinth seals I think they're called) to get the ball bearings out.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4405/...6f3f4883_c.jpgIMG20170827155936 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

Planet cages L to R - AW, S5, AB

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4354/...2bcde71a_c.jpgIMG20170826155559 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

AB innards next to an S5 in an AW shell

arty dave 08-27-17 12:38 AM

3speedslow it's called the ball ring and there are 2 kinds, one with square notches, one with half round notches - there are SA spanners made for removing the half round https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4409/...28937b3631.jpgC-spanner by arty dave armour, on Flickrhttps://farm5.staticflickr.com/4442/...91bc3d28eb.jpg0000000770763_370_0 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

...for the square notches most people use a hammer and punch. Usually this works quite well, at first I thought this was a freakish thing to do with a hub :). I use a slightly rounded cold chisel - I find it fits into the notch well, and doesn't slip out as I'm tapping. Some use a screwdriver, I think for the same reason. Watch the vids.

arty dave 08-27-17 02:17 AM

Beautiful rides as usual Sir Mike. I always like the look of whitewalls on vintage steeds.
It snowed here today which is very unusual. Yesterday it was bike-riding sunny.

BigChief 08-27-17 04:41 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 19820446)
It's the second, sharper type on my 1958 Sports.

Thanks! Now we have another tool for dating Raleigh frames. Looks like this transitional shape was only used for a short period of time (by Raleigh standards) in the mid 50s.

BigChief 08-27-17 04:45 AM

@arty dave Thanks for those hub internal photos. Very useful!

gster 08-27-17 05:24 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19820787)
@arty dave Thanks for those hub internal photos. Very useful!

I second that!

JohnDThompson 08-27-17 08:38 AM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19820442)
For the SA hubs, once you have the cog off there is a cap with 2 notches up against he hub shell. What does the tool look like to remove that cap? My friends LBS has an even darker corner where all the old tools of 40+ yrs are thrown. I want to go dig in there and see if he has some internal hubs gems.

For the old-style square notches, the "official" tool is DD1145 ("C" Spanner for Right Side Ball Ring) in the illustration below. Most people use a hammer and punch:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/SA-tools.jpg

For the modern, half-round notches, you need the official tool. BikeToolsEtc carries them; just tell them what hub you have as there are a couple variations of the tool:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/sa-hub-tool.jpg


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