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-   -   Can we talk wheels, again? Please? (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=1237869)

sapporoguy 09-01-21 09:10 PM

Can we talk wheels, again? (36-spoke vs 40)
 
I want to build a new front wheel for our Co-Mo after our 3,800-mile X-country fully-loaded on a 40H Son hub + Velocity Dyad + Schwalbe Marathon Supreme.
Team weight: 300-ish. Luggage load on bike: about 100lbs, including water. No wheel problems on the X-C except tube failures.
Reasons for wanting new wheel:
-Switch to a disc front fork/brake, partly because the tube explosion from overheated rim wasn't pleasant.
-Want to try tubeless.
But!
It seems like the only company that offers 40H rims anymore is Velocity, and the 40H tubeless options are either lightweight or pretty wide (Aileron on one end, Cliffhanger on the other)
And, what?! Judging from a search of this forum, maybe I no longer need 40-spoke (never mind 48) wheels? People are posting that with modern rim/spoke combinations, 36 or even 32 spokes should do? Even for fully-loaded touring?
Any advice appreciated, especially from real-world experience.

Rick 09-01-21 10:15 PM

So you already have a disk compatible fork or you are going to purchase one for your tandem. I currently weigh 306lbs and have a 36 spoked Son 28 disk hub on my touring bike. I weighed 376lbs when I purchased the bicycle. I built the wheel with A very strong rim and it has not come out of true in over 7years of riding. I suggest the Ryde Andra 30 rim. This rim is drilled so you have straighter spoke line with larger hubs. I believe bike 24 has them in stock.

sapporoguy 09-02-21 10:01 AM

Can we talk wheels, again? (36-spoke vs 40)
 

Originally Posted by Rick (Post 22211464)
I suggest the Ryde Andra 30 rim.

This rim looks promising, and recommended by Alee Denham! Thanks.

headasunder 09-02-21 01:53 PM

I went for 32 hole rims as 36 aren't as easy to source, DT swiss 350 hybrid hubs(ebike spec) nice beefy flanges. The rims are stans grail3 although if you plan to run wider tubeless tyres than 40mm i would look at some of the dt swiss offerings. Can't say I'm sold on tubeless for touring and will probably give tublito punctureproof tubes a run for our next tour. The Grails held up fine on gravel with the odd single track but are not bomb it down a steep offroad track rims.

Rick 09-02-21 03:09 PM

My 1990 Burly Bongo Tandem has never had a blowout. This is probably due to having a drag brake and never running tires below 1.5" wide. The original wheels with Susie hubs and 36 spokes were not adequate. At least on the rear. The rear bolt on hub wheel had two bent axles and breaking spokes before I replaced the wheel set. I have two sets of wheels I built up with Phil Wood Tandem hubs. One set with 40 holes and the other with 48 holes. If you are still going to use a Son alternator hub the larger diameter hub and strong rims will be plenty strong on the front with 36 spokes. If you order a new fork from Co-Motion have them modify the right fork end for the Son SL model. The SL model puts the power through the axle so you don't need to unplug any connectors when removing the wheel. They did this for me on my Pangea Rohloff.

fooferdoggie 09-03-21 08:04 AM

we just got ours 32 cliff hanger rims and Sapim extra strong spokes on dt Swiss hubs about 400 pounds bike and us. we do light mountain biking. the wider rim caused our tires to hit the fender though.

Rick 09-03-21 10:05 AM


we just got ours 32 cliff hanger rims and Sapim extra strong spokes on dt Swiss hubs about 400 pounds bike and us. we do light mountain biking. the wider rim caused our tires to hit the fender though.
I don't like 32 spokes for heavy touring or Tandem use. The longevity of 32 spokes is dubious with the weight you suggest especially on a tandem. I only agree with 36 spokes on the front of a Tandem with the larger diameter alternator hub and the strongest rims. The stress on the rear wheel of a Tandem is even greater than the front. 32 spokes on the rear of a Tandem sounds like taco time to me. On my Tandem I built two sets of wheels with Phil Wood hubs. I didn't own a car and needed the bicycle to always be ready. With 40/48 spokes and dishless rear wheels the occasional cracked rim was the only problem.

mwdilday 09-03-21 10:11 AM

Just curious what does "team weight" mean?

headasunder 09-03-21 10:39 AM


Originally Posted by mwdilday (Post 22213446)
Just curious what does "team weight" mean?

captain and stoker combined weight

IPassGas 09-03-21 05:05 PM


Originally Posted by sapporoguy (Post 22211414)
-Switch to a disc front fork/brake, partly because the tube explosion from overheated rim wasn't pleasant.
-Want to try tubeless.

You want a disc brake. I presume you mean a ventilated hydraulic brake ($$), because a standard disc would fry under your conditions. You ok with bleeding the brake, carrying fluid and topping off on a long tour if needed? You will need to change your shifter to be compatible ($$). You have a derailleur from the pictures, consider instead changing the rear hub to something that can accept a drag brake. May still be possible with phil wood, don't know. Our older santana toured through many mountain passes loaded with camping gear and food on dyads with a drag brake... never a problem, a drag brake last for a very long time with little maintenance. But, it is not disc brake sexy and bike companies like to sell stuff.

Tubeless...you tour off road in goathead country or on interstate shoulders often? Otherwise why bother. And even then, higher pressure tires and tubeless do not go well together.

Our newer tandem has a son28 and rohloff. I agree with rick, andra rims are the best. However, you are focused on the front wheel, 36 spokes are ok in front since it is not a dished wheel. Velocity rims are good.

fooferdoggie 09-03-21 05:53 PM


Originally Posted by IPassGas (Post 22214128)
You want a disc brake. I presume you mean a ventilated hydraulic brake ($$), because a standard disc would fry under your conditions. You ok with bleeding the brake, carrying fluid and topping off on a long tour if needed? You will need to change your shifter to be compatible ($$). You have a derailleur from the pictures, consider instead changing the rear hub to something that can accept a drag brake. May still be possible with phil wood, don't know. Our older santana toured through many mountain passes loaded with camping gear and food on dyads with a drag brake... never a problem, a drag brake last for a very long time with little maintenance. But, it is not disc brake sexy and bike companies like to sell stuff.

Tubeless...you tour off road in goathead country or on interstate shoulders often? Otherwise why bother. And even then, higher pressure tires and tubeless do not go well together.

Our newer tandem has a son28 and rohloff. I agree with rick, andra rims are the best. However, you are focused on the front wheel, 36 spokes are ok in front since it is not a dished wheel. Velocity rims are good.

you cant get 36. so the wheel smith picked this setup with really strong spokes and the rim is pretty beefy too. and the dt Swiss hub is made for e bikes and tandems. I don't think we will load our bike down too much though.

sapporoguy 09-03-21 09:49 PM


Originally Posted by IPassGas (Post 22214128)
I presume you mean a ventilated hydraulic brake ($$), because a standard disc would fry under your conditions.

I have a TRP hy/rd on rear, which has been fine. Hasn't fried. Figured I'd use that on front. Co-Mo, Santana and others put cable discs on front, so I assume they work without frying.

Originally Posted by IPassGas (Post 22214128)
You ok with bleeding the brake, carrying fluid and topping off on a long tour if needed?

Yes. You should see my toolkit. Otoh, never had to bleed my hy/rd.

Originally Posted by IPassGas (Post 22214128)
You will need to change your shifter to be compatible ($$). .

That assumes I need hydros. I use bar-end shifters and TRP RRL levers, which should be fine with cable or hybrid discs.

Originally Posted by IPassGas (Post 22214128)
consider instead changing the rear hub to something that can accept a drag brake.

My DT Swiss Hugi rear hub on the Co-Mo has a threaded adaptor that would work with Arai drum.. I have Arai drum on our Santana, and I love it. But I can't see carrying the extra xx pounds 3,800-miles cross country just for the 5 miles I needed them. The TRP hy/rd on the back worked fine, plus I also have V brakes on the back as backup. Also, something like 75% of braking power is on the front, which is why I want to work on the front.

Originally Posted by IPassGas (Post 22214128)
But, it is not disc brake sexy and bike companies like to sell stuff.

I don't care about sexy. I'm a 64-year-old dork, for chrissakes. I care about what works.

Originally Posted by IPassGas (Post 22214128)
Tubeless...you tour off road in goathead country or on interstate shoulders often? Otherwise why bother.

Because I want to try it, as I said. On our X-C, I met a bunch of fully-loaded cyclists on tubeless who swore by them on paved roads. So I'd like to try.

Originally Posted by IPassGas (Post 22214128)
higher pressure tires and tubeless do not go well together.

We tour on 60-70 psi. Is that high pressure?

Originally Posted by IPassGas (Post 22214128)
Our newer tandem has a son28 and rohloff. I agree with rick, andra rims are the best. However, you are focused on the front wheel, 36 spokes are ok in front since it is not a dished wheel.

Are Son disc hubs symmetrical? Don't they require dish?













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NickJP 09-03-21 10:01 PM


Originally Posted by Rick (Post 22213438)
I don't like 32 spokes for heavy touring or Tandem use. The longevity of 32 spokes is dubious with the weight you suggest especially on a tandem. I only agree with 36 spokes on the front of a Tandem with the larger diameter alternator hub and the strongest rims. The stress on the rear wheel of a Tandem is even greater than the front. 32 spokes on the rear of a Tandem sounds like taco time to me. On my Tandem I built two sets of wheels with Phil Wood hubs. I didn't own a car and needed the bicycle to always be ready. With 40/48 spokes and dishless rear wheels the occasional cracked rim was the only problem.

I built a touring tandem up in 1987 using the then fairly new 26" MTB rims. I could only find these rims in a max of 36h, and was a bit dubious about this as our previous touring tandem had used 48 spoke wheels front and rear. However, seeing that was all I could find, I built the wheels 36h both front and rear (140mm spacing on the rear, Bullseye tandem hubs), and 33 years later we have yet to break a spoke or have a wheel go out of true, though I've needed to replace rims a couple of times due to sidewall wear from braking. The all-up weight of us plus tandem plus camping load is about 400lbs, and we've had it over some pretty rough unsealed roads in the outback.

On our racing tandem, where it's only ever ridden without luggage (Co-Motion Robusta) I used 40h rear 32h front with Phil Wood hubs and Velocity Deep-V rims, and they've similarly remained dead true.

sapporoguy 09-03-21 10:10 PM


Originally Posted by NickJP (Post 22214433)
I built the wheels 36h both front and rear (140mm spacing on the rear, Bullseye tandem hubs), and 33 years later we have yet to break a spoke or have a wheel go out of true, though I've needed to replace rims a couple of times due to sidewall wear from braking. The all-up weight of us plus tandem plus camping load is about 400lbs, and we've had it over some pretty rough unsealed roads in the outback.

On our racing tandem, where it's only ever ridden without luggage (Co-Motion Robusta) I used 40h rear 32h front with Phil Wood hubs and Velocity Deep-V rims, and they've similarly remained dead true.

Thanks, this is good info. For some reason, I'd assumed tandems needed 40-48 spokes. Our used Santana came with 40front/48 back and our used Co-Mo was 40/40. So I've been looking for 40H rims, and there are precious few. If 36H is a reliable option, especially for the front, that opens things up a bit.

Rick 09-03-21 10:21 PM


I built a touring tandem up in 1987 using the then fairly new 26" MTB rims. I could only find these rims in a max of 36h, and was a bit dubious about this as our previous touring tandem had used 48 spoke wheels front and rear. However, seeing that was all I could find, I built the wheels 36h both front and rear (140mm spacing on the rear, Bullseye tandem hubs), and 33 years later we have yet to break a spoke or have a wheel go out of true, though I've needed to replace rims a couple of times due to sidewall wear from braking. The all-up weight of us plus tandem plus camping load is about 400lbs, and we've had it over some pretty rough unsealed roads in the outback.

On our racing tandem, where it's only ever ridden without luggage (Co-Motion Robusta) I used 40h rear 32h front with Phil Wood hubs and Velocity Deep-V rims, and they've similarly remained dead true.
My Tandem team weight with Pregnant wife was close to 400lbs We were also pulling a custom two wheeled cart that weighed around 50lbs empty. The only rims with 40/48 drillings I new about at the time were made by Sun.

Rick 09-03-21 10:33 PM


I have a TRP hy/rd on rear, which has been fine. Hasn't fried. Figured I'd use that on front. Co-Mo, Santana and others put cable discs on front, so I assume they work without frying.
I have tried the hy/rd and didn't get along with the lack of lever throw once they are adjusted correctly. My Pangea Rohloff came with the Spyres. The Paul Klampers work much better and I run a ebike disk rotor on the front. Your not going to fry a mechanical unless they have plastic that melts like what happened to several Tandem teams and the pad adjusters melted.

sapporoguy 09-03-21 10:50 PM


Originally Posted by Rick (Post 22214460)
The Paul Klampers work much better and I run a ebike disk rotor on the front.

I wish you hadn't said that! I've been sorely tempted to try the Pauls. What's been holding me off is the price and that I had a bad experience with the Paul Mini-Motos (great brakes except I can't get them to stop shrieking and Paul won't respond to my emails)

Rick 09-03-21 11:45 PM


I wish you hadn't said that! I've been sorely tempted to try the Pauls. What's been holding me off is the price and that I had a bad experience with the Paul Mini-Motos (great brakes except I can't get them to stop shrieking and Paul won't respond to my emails)
I have the discontinued Magura HS66 hydraulic rim brakes on my Tandem and an Araya drum brake. So when my touring bike came with the Spyres they were a big disappointment. The hy/rd brakes frustrated me with not enough lever throw. I spent some money on the Paul Klampers. I am also using the Yokozuna Reaction really compressionless brake housing and it is expensive. The Klampers are so wide to the outside that at first the things were not smooth. Jagwire has some brake farels that have an extended tube coming out the end and this solved that problem. Also the housing had to be slightly trimmed in diameter so I could put on the Jagwire ferals. If I had to do things all over again I would have ordered the touring bike with the cantilever studs and put the crazy bars on and the Magura HS33 brakes on and for allot less money better brakes by far. I have the Motolites on my Sons touring bike and they don't squeal. I have read allot of negative reviews on the Mini-Motos and If you look at Paul's videos you see they were originally made with studs that mounted them closer to the frame for better support. I believe the squealing on those brakes is a major lack of support due to their design. I would try fixing some brake boosters to them. di Vinci Tandems used to have some stout brake boosters.

honcho 09-07-21 08:52 AM

As others have said, I share the opinion that a 36 spoke front wheel will serve you well. We ride a 32 spoke front disc wheel, albeit a small 406mm rim, but without any wheel/spoke/hub issues.

As for disc brakes, that's a different story. The bike came with SRAM Code R hydraulics which worked great--until they didn't--and we couldn't get the issues resolved in time for a tour so we fitted a mechanical BB7 which was barely adequate. Swapped out to a TRP Spyke which was much better than the BB7 but still not as powerful and confidence inspiring as the hydraulic setup. Have a new set of Shimano 4 piston hydraulics to install but need to pick up a bleed kit. I'd love to retain the simplicity of a mechanical setup but the stopping power of hydraulic brakes is impressive. We traveled extensively on the SRAM brakes for 7 years so we got good service out of them.

Rick 09-07-21 06:35 PM

My hydraulic rim brakes on my Tandem are much easier on the hands and stop better than any disk brake I have ever used. Being a low pressure closed hydraulic system has made it so I don't need to replace the mineral oil. They have worked fine for around 20 years. The only maintenance is changing the pads and you need no tools to do this. The pads are less expensive and last several times longer than disk pads. Disk brakes are a high maintenance overpriced money pit compared to hydraulic rim brakes.

Msteven 09-15-21 03:53 PM

I destroyed 2x TRP hy/rd calipers on a single descent trying to stay slow behind vehicle traffic.
Stick with mechanical unless you have the cash to upgrade to oversized 4-pistion downhill calipers like shimano saint.
Mechanical Spyre or Bengal calipers are dual action calipers. Mechanical is hard on the hands though.
Magura e-bike floating roters are nice also.
I have had Saint calipers for ~2 years. have not had to bleed the system yet. Have changed pads 3x now. ended up with metallic in the rear and organic front.
I use the rear as a drag brake on steep downhills without any issues. Magura e-bike floating rotors are nice also.

Have been running tubeless for 3 years on a 650b co-mo tandem. 47mm WTB Byway on Velocity Cliffhanger. 32 spokes on "road / lite gravel" wheels and 36 spokes on 55mm knobby everything else wheels.
Road - We run 45 to 55 psi, depending on route
Trail - 35 to 40 psi
We changed over because of potholes and pinch flats. Have not had one yet, though a few instances if we were running tubes I am sure we would have flatted.
Both wheels have been rock solid and I would run 32 again f/r.

IPassGas 09-15-21 07:47 PM


Originally Posted by Msteven (Post 22231638)
We changed over because of potholes and pinch flats. Have not had one yet, though a few instances if we were running tubes I am sure we would have flatted.

Perhaps, but people have different experiences. Over the past 10K+ miles...trails, roads, bad roads, mountains with tubes and loaded for camping....no flats. Seems to help to examine the tires every now and then on tour, looking for cuts, glass, pins and thorns, depending on location, and to carry a pic to extract the stuff. Over all our many years of touring and many miles, we have rarely have had significant problems with tires. I understand people are trying to do better with tubeless, and with MTB and low pressures tires, tubeless has become more of a certainty. I don't see that road/touring tires have yet risen to that level of confidence with tubeless. So we will trundle on another 100K and then reconsider.

sapporoguy 09-15-21 10:58 PM


Originally Posted by Msteven (Post 22231638)
I destroyed 2x TRP hy/rd calipers on a single descent.

Ohh, some details, please! Destroyed in what way? I've got hy/rd on back and would like to avoid this fate.

Originally Posted by Msteven (Post 22231638)
I have had Saint calipers for ~2 years.

Front and rear? And with flat-bar levers, I assume, or can one match these to drop-bar hydro levers? I was thinking of trying to switch to Saints.

Originally Posted by Msteven (Post 22231638)
Have been running tubeless for 3 years on a 650b co-mo tandem. 47mm WTB Byway on Velocity Cliffhanger. 32 spokes on "road / lite gravel" wheels and 36 spokes on 55mm knobby everything else wheels.
Road - We run 45 to 55 psi, depending on route

Great info. I'll have a look at Cliffhangers.

Msteven 09-16-21 09:55 AM


Originally Posted by sapporoguy (Post 22232045)
Ohh, some details, please! Destroyed in what way? I've got hy/rd on back and would like to avoid this fate.

Front and rear? And with flat-bar levers, I assume, or can one match these to drop-bar hydro levers? I was thinking of trying to switch to Saints.

Great info. I'll have a look at Cliffhangers.

The HyRd experience: maybe 1 mile down at 6 to 8 percent behind a slow minivan. the internal pistons froze in the braking position. I could make them clamp down between ~30% and 100% but they would not release. This happened with both. I could not get the pistons to retract again

Saint Calipers: I have these connected to an older set of ST-R785 brifters (road). The lever pull is maybe 20% more than road calipers, but not close to bottoming out. Since installing along with the magura e-bike floating rotors I have not had any braking issues and our local routes are all hills up to ~15%

sapporoguy 09-16-21 12:14 PM


Originally Posted by Msteven (Post 22232540)
Saint Calipers: I have these connected to an older set of ST-R785 brifters (road). The lever pull is maybe 20% more than road calipers, but not close to bottoming out. Since installing along with the magura e-bike floating rotors I have not had any braking issues and our local routes are all hills up to ~15%

I shall have to try this. I haven't had troubles with my hy/rd (rear only), but not really happy with the braking power. I assume I'll need a Shimano lever for the Shimano calipers; maybe get a used one.


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