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Cadence, who needs it?
We all ride at our own pace as evidenced by a poll I held on the Road Bike forum. For decades I maintained a high 70s and low 80s pace because I felt like my legs were engaged and working. Regardless of how tired I felt I maintained that cadence and have up until about 6 months ago. That’s when I did my first Zwift workout series, Build Me Up. It had me spinning at what I considered ludicrous rates, up to 110 RPM. It also had plenty of 60 RPM high torque moments as well. What I learned ( better late than never) is that a high cadence makes high effort sessions (say 250 Watts for me) much easier when I spin like a mad man - about 100+ RPM. OK, so that worked on the trainer but what about real life IRL/OD?
Today I went out for a ‘short’ ride and decided to use high cadences because my legs were still a bit tired from yesterdays trainer session. I kept it on the flats and rolling hills about 90 and felt like i was not putting out any energy - and I really wasn’t since I was putting along at 16-17 MPH. On the 11 and 12% climbs (all four of the bloody things) I tried to keep it around 100 but since I was riding my vintage 12 speed, 26 lb Bianchi - it was more like 50-60. But when back on the flats, back to 90 which again felt effortless. My 20 mile short ride turned into an almost 40 miler with 2000’ of climbing which I thought I would regret, but returned feeling really quite good, but not more tired than I started. This proved to me, that high cadence, even though can be a bit slower (I had no PRs doing this) was really quite helpful when tired and can comfortably extend a ride. In the future if I get tired pushing lower gears, go to the higher ones and spin away. The morale to the story, an old dog can learn new tricks. So have all of you known this high cadence ‘secret’ ;) forever and have been hiding it or was the ‘spin to win’ the secret all along? |
It was said in racing circles long before that certain American racer championed cadence that if you could out-spin your rival, come crunch time you could beat him. Hardly a new concept.
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You must have missed all the arguments in the Road section where seasoned riders tell newbies to spin faster and they say that's too fast. Just count the pedal strokes in the pro peloton of le Tour as they come into the closing kilometers. No secret.
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Never had cadence, never needed it.
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In my experience, the high rpm, low torque Spin puts a much lower peak load on the muscles than a high -torque, low rpm grind. That peak load is what causes the level of fatigue in your muscles; the higher that sustained peak load, the farther you'll have to back off during the "rest" cycles, and the longer those rest cycles need to be.
To urbanknight racing example; a group that breaks away early usually gets reeled back in by the peloton, because they've "burned all their matches" getting clear, and don't have the reserves to stay ahead of the bunch that's been at a slightly lower, but more sustainable speed. Conversely, the sprinters have been hanging back in the crowd, doing the low-effort spin, conserving their ammo for when it's time to drop Watt Bombs fighting for the finish line |
Originally Posted by rsbob
(Post 22771475)
We all ride at our own pace as evidenced by a poll I held on the Road Bike forum. For decades I maintained a high 70s and low 80s pace because I felt like my legs were engaged and working. Regardless of how tired I felt I maintained that cadence and have up until about 6 months ago. That’s when I did my first Zwift workout series, Build Me Up. It had me spinning at what I considered ludicrous rates, up to 110 RPM. It also had plenty of 60 RPM high torque moments as well. What I learned ( better late than never) is that a high cadence makes high effort sessions (say 250 Watts for me) much easier when I spin like a mad man - about 100+ RPM. OK, so that worked on the trainer but what about real life IRL/OD?
Today I went out for a ‘short’ ride and decided to use high cadences because my legs were still a bit tired from yesterdays trainer session. I kept it on the flats and rolling hills about 90 and felt like i was not putting out any energy - and I really wasn’t since I was putting along at 16-17 MPH. On the 11 and 12% climbs (all four of the bloody things) I tried to keep it around 100 but since I was riding my vintage 12 speed, 26 lb Bianchi - it was more like 50-60. But when back on the flats, back to 90 which again felt effortless. My 20 mile short ride turned into an almost 40 miler with 2000’ of climbing which I thought I would regret, but returned feeling really quite good, but not more tired than I started. This proved to me, that high cadence, even though can be a bit slower (I had no PRs doing this) was really quite helpful when tired and can comfortably extend a ride. In the future if I get tired pushing lower gears, go to the higher ones and spin away. The morale to the story, an old dog can learn new tricks. So have all of you known this high cadence ‘secret’ forever and have been hiding it or was the ‘spin to win’ the secret all along? Remember that power = pedal force/torque x cadence. So increasing cadence is just as effective in producing power as pushing harder on your pedals. But intuitively it can feel like you are making less power when spinning vs pushing a bigger gear. Riding with a power meter helps you to understand this relationship better. I often find myself producing more power while spinning, even though it "feels" like less power than grinding out a higher gear. For example dropping from large to small chainring on a climb often boosts my power as I spin up, even though it "feels" like the complete opposite at the time as the muscular load drops off. Spinning puts more load on your cardio system, but it's faster to recover. Muscular fatigue requires a much longer recovery. So having the ability to spin faster is a useful advantage in endurance events. But there's always a balance to find and that varies from rider to rider. But the pros are all relatively high cadence riders from what I've seen. |
Originally Posted by BikeLite
(Post 22771525)
Never had cadence, never needed it.
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Originally Posted by BikeLite
(Post 22771525)
Never had cadence, never needed it.
Originally Posted by PeteHski
(Post 22771561)
So you just read about it instead?
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Originally Posted by rsbob
(Post 22771475)
So have all of you known this high cadence ‘secret’ forever and have been hiding it or was the ‘spin to win’ the secret all along?
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On an easy ride where you’re not working hard and going slower than usual, I wouldn’t attribute too much to the benefits of cadence. Maybe you could have completed the same ride feeling just as fresh pedaling at a slower average speed. Maybe you could have pedaled slower on the flats and pushed it harder on the climbs? Lots of ways to slice the cake, so to speak, but what’s the point?
I mean, it’s unusual to accept *going slower* as a training benefit, right? EDIT: Oh, nevermind…I didn’t read it right. I see the OP clearly said the point was extending the ride when tired. Got it! |
Originally Posted by chaadster
(Post 22771600)
On an easy ride where you’re not working hard and going slower than usual, I wouldn’t attribute too much to the benefits of cadence. Maybe you could have completed the same ride feeling just as fresh pedaling at a slower average speed. Maybe you could have pedaled slower on the flats and pushed it harder on the climbs? Lots of ways to slice the cake, so to speak, but what’s the point?
I mean, it’s unusual to accept *going slower* as a training benefit, right? Pros do this kind of cadence training on a regular basis, so they must perceive some benefit. I certainly feel some benefit anyway. The ability to ride comfortably across a wide cadence range has lots of benefits during a long ride over variable terrain. |
Originally Posted by Bald Paul
(Post 22771597)
I got a new bike with Sram 12 speed. 46/33 crankset and 10-36 cassette gets me up the hills without too much low cadence grinding.
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
(Post 22771607)
Yet many high cadence interval drills are done with relatively low power to train your neuro-muscular coordination to comfortably accept a higher general riding cadence. I find that after a few low power cadence drills (ramping up to 130+ rpm) returning to a normal 85-90 rpm riding cadence feels super easy.
Pros do this kind of cadence training on a regular basis, so they must perceive some benefit. I certainly feel some benefit anyway. The ability to ride comfortably across a wide cadence range has lots of benefits during a long ride over variable terrain. In any case, maybe you were writing when I posted my edit saying I’d misunderstood the OP, whose point was that higher cadence helped them extend a ride when tired, which I understand. When muscles are fatigued, lightening the torque load does help. |
Originally Posted by rsbob
(Post 22771475)
So have all of you known this high cadence ‘secret’ forever and have been hiding it or was the ‘spin to win’ the secret all along?
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They knew about cadence a long time ago. The owners of the Schwinn store where I bought my bikes as a youth and teen in the 70's told me all about it. I just ignored them and was a masher back then. However as I got older, I learned that a good range of cadence was the way to go. And a high cadence is the only way to be fast on the typical range of gearing that we have on road bikes. So getting use to spinning easy gears between 80 - 120 rpm really helped me. No one will be fast mashing away at 60 rpm.
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The internal work of pedaling is a sharply increasing function of cadence. From Formenti’s data it appears to be a cubic function. Anyway, you can assume 0.1 W/kg at 50 rpm, 0.3 W/kg at 70 rpm, 0.6 W/kg at 90 rpm and about 1.0 W/kg at 110 rpm.
So, you will increase your cardio overhead a bit at a higher cadence, but you reduce pedal force for a given speed and also move to a muscle speed that allows slightly higher maximum power. I will again post this article on cadence which I think does a good job of laying out how to think about standing and seated cadences in a variety of riding situations. https://cinchcycling.cc/blogs/news/t...ycling-cadence Hopefully, your cadence may vary. 😊 Otto |
Originally Posted by rsbob
(Post 22771475)
OK, so that worked on the trainer but what about real life IRL/OD?
Today I went out for a ‘short’ ride and decided to use high cadences because my legs were still a bit tired from yesterdays trainer session. That said, if everyone were pedaling at roughly the same cadence, power differences will mostly be determined by differences in pedal force. |
Originally Posted by chaadster
(Post 22771622)
Yes, but going slower in that case is a tool (or even byproduct), not the benefit.
In any case, maybe you were writing when I posted my edit saying I’d misunderstood the OP, whose point was that higher cadence helped them extend a ride when tired, which I understand. When muscles are fatigued, lightening the torque load does help. |
Spinning is winning? :innocent:
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Originally Posted by rsbob
(Post 22771475)
So have all of you known this high cadence ‘secret’ forever
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When I worked in a bike shop in the '80s, runners who wanted to transition to triathlons occasionally asked me how to pace themselves on the bike. I told them to figure out their running strides-per-minute pace and respiration rate and then use the bike's gearing to replicate those numbers on the bike.
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Originally Posted by Koyote
(Post 22771641)
Your post is all over the map, so I’m not sure exactly what you mean by “secret.“ But I do believe that the basics were all covered in your other cadence thread, and have been well known for a long time: lower cadences will allow you to put out high torque with lower cardio effort; high cadences allow you to put out higher power with a higher cardio effort. In other words, higher cadences won’t fry your legs as much. I think that’s what you’re feeling.
Thanks to all the excellent responses. Amazing at my age to completely change my cadence strategy but it appears I will be happier and be able to do longer distances without wearing myself out so quickly. That’s a great thing. Another great thing was not experiencing any muscle soreness last night or this morning. Call me a convert. This is the 26 lb beast I rode with 1980s racing gears. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2b9eaed13.jpeg Campione Del Mundo for Weightlifters |
i've not really had a great benefit with a higher cadence for well planned out rides. It does help extend a gassed out ride or when muscle fatigue gets real restrictive.
Stroke, it's all in how you use it to benefit your riding needs. |
Originally Posted by rsbob
(Post 22771886)
Amazing at my age to completely change my cadence strategy…
Because I had a series of knee problems for many years, I’d gotten accustomed to exerting light pedal pressure, and consequently would spin a fairly high cadence whenever possible because my knees would otherwise give me great pain. I was seriously entertaining the prospect of knee replacements, it was so bad. Since the last year and half, my knees started cooperating— no more crazy swelling, and gone was the constant pain— and I was able to resume good, consistent training. As fitnessed has returned, I’m delighted to be able to put down power levels at low RPMs which, just a couple of years ago, would have required +90rpm to do. It’s great! This summer, I found myself whizzing around on club rides sometimes pedaling at 75rpm at high Tempo power…just because I could! It has been particularly nice, because as a heavy rider, I think throwing around my massive legs at high speeds has a pretty impactful cardio cost. It’s nice to be able to drop a few beats— maybe to stay aerobic— while maintaining power level. |
Five and a half decades of riding fixed-gear bikes---I figured that, since I had only sporadic knee discomfort from time to time, I could go on grinding up climbs indefinitely. But "grinding" turned out not to have been merely a metaphor.
I'm just starting to get back to where neither of my knees is bothering me, at least if I'm careful to spin low gears at all times. I wish Chaadster all the best, but I think I'll stick with higher-cadence riding henceforth. Don't care to press my luck. |
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