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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

vintagebicycle 01-10-23 12:41 AM

A shop that I used to work for back in the 70's sold Royal Enfield, they were getting them from Joannou Cycle in north Jersey. I believe they were made in Taiwan. There were three speeds, some with Raleigh type forks.They were equipped with SA hubs. They weren't bad bikes, likely coming from Giant or another large manufacturer. They all had chrome Endrick style steel rims that were pretty much a dead knockoff of what Raleigh was using at the time on the LTD model, cottered steel cranks, they had lug frames, North Road type bars, Raleigh style stem, the fenders were very similar to Raleigh, but they used American style stamped steel braces, the saddles were vinyl, on par with most other similar bikes. The chain guards were similar to Raleigh but lighter built. The grips were even the same as a Raleigh Sports.
I think it was mainly a case of a distributor owning the rights to the name back then, there was likely no relationship to the original Royal Enfield company by that time.
They were decent bikes, and they could be sold for a good bit less than a Raleigh Sports back then, I seem to recall them sitting on the floor with $79.99 hang tags on them, often discounted even lower. (At the same point, a Raleigh was in the $140 range or so).

By the time the 80's came around they were mostly gone, with only a few left overs lingering on the showroom floor. They seemed to go away around the same time that the real Raleigh Sports did back then. Around that time every brand had a three speed touring bike.

I owned one for a short while back then, it was a bike that a customer bought and later run into with his car, he bought a new one and left the damaged one for use to dispose of.
I straightened the frame, wheels, and cranks and used it for a while myself. I can't for the life of me remember what ever happened to that bike, it either got left behind when I moved at some point or loaned out and not returned over the years. It was small for me so I didn't ride it much myself but it wasn't a bad bike.
For the short time they were available, I don't recall any big issues with them, but most who bought that type of bike were rather casual riders.


I did some digging and found these from around 1977-79 or so.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c3aa22aaac.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...05ea6d44c6.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d2234e141e.jpg

1989Pre 01-10-23 04:12 AM


Originally Posted by vintagebicycle (Post 22763901)
They were equipped with SA hubs.

I'm surprised no mention of Dynohub as an option.

mirfi 01-10-23 10:49 AM

Hello,

Throwing this serial number out there for those of you who know about these things.

For Raleigh (American made(?)) RSW

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e4d1e340fe.jpg
S1F91918

oldspokes 01-11-23 06:26 AM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22763920)
I'm surprised no mention of Dynohub as an option.

I would suppose that the added cost of a dynohub or lights would have been a bit much for a bike being sold as a cheap alternative.
Going by that brochure, they likely looked a bit less 'British' to most Raleigh buyers then with the bright colors and gumwall tires.
While its just personal preference, gumwall tires on fender bike just never looked right to me. A lot that is probably because they're what came on
the department store 26" road bikes of that era.

None of that brochure mentions a chrome, or chrome tip fork though for the three speed model. It makes me think that those forks could be from a different era of production. From what I find online, the 70's era models were Taiwan built and badged Royal Enfield for the distributor, unless they were sourcing forks with 24tpi threading from England, which I sort of doubt, they are likely earlier than the bikes described in the brochure above.

Ged117 01-11-23 11:42 AM

For anyone enjoying cycling life within the world of Sturmey Archer hub gears who likes to use them with road bikes in the classic club or 'fast touring' style, I have found a source for modern alloy 32/40h 700c rim sets via ebay seller saveitfromlandfill here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/153176024390

Kinlin rims are made in Taiwan just like Sun rims are, and appear to be of comparable quality, and are popular in the UK for 32/40 builds. For a long while I was trying to find period 1950s Constrictor Conloy alloy rims in 27 x 1 1/4, or Dunlop rims, to lace some nice late 1940s / early '50s hubs to, but these are unobtanium unless at very high prices, as its been 70 years since they were made. I did find a 40h one, but it could be months or years before I find a 32h mate for it, which is too long a wait for me personally, so I passed. Otherwise most period wheelsets in 32/40 in 27 x 1 1/4 are steel, or you mix and match other European rims from the '60s and '70s if you want 27" or 700c but in 32/40 in a box section alloy rim that looks appropriate. Sun CR18 is a good choice in well priced 32 or 36h, but they don't make a 40h version (you could put your hub guts into a 36h shell, but for nice original 40s or 50s hubs like an FM, FW, AM or alloy AW, etc. its hard to dump the original shell).

Other period options include 26 x 1 1/4 rims, but tire options in that size are very limited. 650a or 26 x 1 3/8 would work too, depending on frame clearance, and there are a few good tire options still thanks to its popularity in the Japanese market, but with my road bike build I want it to look more closely to the original. 27 x 1 1/4 has one great tire option and a few so-so options, but cannot compare with the variety (and probable longevity in this century) of 700c, so I'm building my 32/40 wheelset for my '51 Wasp with 700c modern box section rims while they are available in this hole count. I thought I'd share in case anyone else is considering.

markk900 01-11-23 12:26 PM

Those Kinlins look great!

I was lucky and snagged a set of 32/40 CR18s in ISO 590 when they were still available; I have converted a couple of bikes to 700C using Alex DM18 rims (36h) in silver which I like quite a bit. Not sure if a Trek converted to IGH counts as an English 3-speed but here it is, with the Alex rims (and yes I have subsequently shortened the trigger cable housing a bit!).


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...24d7474639.jpg

1989Pre 01-11-23 03:18 PM

[QUOTE=oldspokes;22765145 While its just personal preference, gumwall tires on fender bike just never looked right to me. A lot that is probably because they're what came on
the department store 26" road bikes of that era.[/QUOTE]


You're probably right about the lighting systems. They definitely cost extra.
I was looking at a 1951 Dunlop catalogue, and it seemed the racing tyres were tubular gumwall or clincher blackwall, and the "utility" bikes had blackwall tires.

A lot of people over at Classic Lightweights go with the Super Champion rim (that's what I have on my Barnard), but, like the Asp, the 32H Super Champ can be a chore to locate.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f0db5c8e75.jpg

Ged117 01-11-23 03:45 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 22765490)
Those Kinlins look great!

I was lucky and snagged a set of 32/40 CR18s in ISO 590 when they were still available; I have converted a couple of bikes to 700C using Alex DM18 rims (36h) in silver which I like quite a bit. Not sure if a Trek converted to IGH counts as an English 3-speed but here it is, with the Alex rims (and yes I have subsequently shortened the trigger cable housing a bit!).


I really like that Trek. For a while, I ran a four-speed FW hub on my '70s Peugeot before finding my Sun frame via a member here.


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22765677)
You're probably right about the lighting systems. They definitely cost extra.
I was looking at a 1951 Dunlop catalogue, and it seemed the racing tyres were tubular gumwall or clincher blackwall, and the "utility" bikes had blackwall tires.

A lot of people over at Classic Lightweights go with the Super Champion rim (that's what I have on my Barnard), but, like the Asp, the 32H Super Champ can be a chore to locate.

I did find a seller for a Super Champion / Model 58 40h rim out west, but at $160 including shipping that was a no go. Most of the Super Champions or Constrictor Conloy / Asp or Dunlop period rims are found either across the pond (so shipping to Canada would be eye-watering) or for really high cost plus shipping from U.S. based sellers. I'm happy to spend my hobby dollars on nice condition hubs of the era, but if there is a nice looking modern alloy equivalent for rims, I'm OK with foregoing period correctness. Ebay prices for quality vintage parts are leaving orbit at this point.

1989Pre 01-11-23 04:16 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 22765717)
I did find a seller for a Super Champion / Model 58 40h rim

The modele 58 is what I'm using. That's way too much money. I've seen them from 50-60 U.S.

I just built up a set of beautiful Asps on Harden High flange 40-32H, but then learnt that the rear was fixed-gear only!
So now, they are wall art.

1989Pre 01-11-23 04:19 PM

Lake Pepin Ride Gearing
 
Has anyone done the Lake Pepin 3-Speed ride in Minnesota? I was just wondering about the necessary gearing. Is a standard S/A. AW hub low enough?

Macguyver909 01-11-23 05:20 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 22765717)
I really like that Trek. For a while, I ran a four-speed FW hub on my '70s Peugeot before finding my Sun frame via a member here.



I did find a seller for a Super Champion / Model 58 40h rim out west, but at $160 including shipping that was a no go. Most of the Super Champions or Constrictor Conloy / Asp or Dunlop period rims are found either across the pond (so shipping to Canada would be eye-watering) or for really high cost plus shipping from U.S. based sellers. I'm happy to spend my hobby dollars on nice condition hubs of the era, but if there is a nice looking modern alloy equivalent for rims, I'm OK with foregoing period correctness. Ebay prices for quality vintage parts are leaving orbit at this point.


Just another avenue to explore. Velocity does make some modern rims in 32 and 40 hole drillings. They are expensive, and I don't know what shipping would be to the north. I also think if you asked real nice they may custom drill just about any rim they make for you. They list the Atlas rim in 650b with 40 holes. I had a set of wheels made up with an AW and Dynohub, hubs and the Atlas rims in the 650b size for my sports. I fully expect the wheels to be heirloom quality. I know I will never wear them out or break them in this lifetime.

Macguyver909 01-11-23 05:27 PM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22765752)
Has anyone done the Lake Pepin 3-Speed ride in Minnesota? I was just wondering about the necessary gearing. Is a standard S/A. AW hub low enough?

I rode this event last year and have geared my bike like Sheldon Brown suggests. Top gear is what I can comfortably spin on the flats. then you get what you get for climbing.
I'm set up at 48/22 and I know one other guy on the tour is geared the same. The ride is not too bad for hills, save for one. I just pedal slower on the hills and don't expect to be able to spin up the big ones. My gear inches calculate out to 42.5/56.7/75.6 with 42mm tires on 650b rims.

SkinGriz 01-11-23 05:29 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 22765490)
Those Kinlins look great!

I was lucky and snagged a set of 32/40 CR18s in ISO 590 when they were still available; I have converted a couple of bikes to 700C using Alex DM18 rims (36h) in silver which I like quite a bit. Not sure if a Trek converted to IGH counts as an English 3-speed but here it is, with the Alex rims (and yes I have subsequently shortened the trigger cable housing a bit!).


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...24d7474639.jpg

Looks like a fun bike to ride.
I like it.

Ged117 01-11-23 07:16 PM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22765749)
The modele 58 is what I'm using. That's way too much money. I've seen them from 50-60 U.S.

I just built up a set of beautiful Asps on Harden High flange 40-32H, but then learnt that the rear was fixed-gear only!
So now, they are wall art.

They're around, its true, but shipping costs to my neck of the woods can be a buzzkill. If US$50 per rim, then its about CAD$67, plus about US$50-$70 or more for shipping. It gets spendy real fast. Anything in British pounds is even worse, despite the pound's nose dive, our dollar is trading a bit low. Its funny you mention Harden hubs and the Asp rims - I once thought about building a wheelset around Harden hubs for a fixed gear build of a 1950ish Armstrong Consort 531 frame - I might be interested in that wheelset some day :) - I recently found out that my long lost Armstrong frame might be showing up after all.


Originally Posted by Macguyver909 (Post 22765821)
Just another avenue to explore. Velocity does make some modern rims in 32 and 40 hole drillings. They are expensive, and I don't know what shipping would be to the north. I also think if you asked real nice they may custom drill just about any rim they make for you. They list the Atlas rim in 650b with 40 holes. I had a set of wheels made up with an AW and Dynohub, hubs and the Atlas rims in the 650b size for my sports. I fully expect the wheels to be heirloom quality. I know I will never wear them out or break them in this lifetime.

About four years ago I built a wheelset using Velocity Dyad rims that I got for a very low price, they're great rims! Deep V though, so not C&V pleasers. I think if I went 650b, I'd go for the Atlas or the VO Voyager rims, they're both very nice looking rims and as you say, good in wheels for the long haul.

Sedgemop 01-11-23 07:40 PM

If everything checks out, I'm picking this up over the weekend. Looks to be a pretty clean example. Be glad to be a member of the three speed club again. Got a new downtown job and this will be perfect for commuting. More photos will come when I get a different saddle.

https://images.craigslist.org/00W0W_...u_1200x900.jpghttps://images.craigslist.org/00808_...u_1200x900.jpghttps://images.craigslist.org/00X0X_...u_1200x900.jpg

SkinGriz 01-11-23 08:07 PM

How much do these weigh?

What could they weigh with newer bars, crank arms, 559 alloy wheels, etc?

I understand low weight isnít the point, but sometimes understanding the possibilities helps me understand the median.

Thank you.

pastorbobnlnh 01-12-23 07:30 AM

I've never participated in this thread since joining BF-C&V back in 2005, primarily because I lived in the NH mountains for 20 years, and I needed more than a three-speed to manage my hills.

Retirement near the end of 2021 brought about a relocation to a flat coastal island. Finally, IGH would make sense! I built a five-speed around a modern Sturmey Archer hub. However, the gear steps of about 20-25%, while fine for errands, were not ideal for fast exercise riding.

Last September, @nlerner offered a 27" wheel laced to a 1951 SA-AM for sale on the Classified page. I snapped it up, and began building this:
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds

A 1975 Schwinn Voyageur II (made by Panasonic). It's a mismatch of parts; front wheel is a 48 spoke Phil Wood hub, tandem wheel. The crankset and BB are from a 1950s ladies Schwinn Superior, MAFAC Racer brakes, DiaCompe levers, and a Campagnolo Record headset.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds


I made the leather bar covers, hoods, and saddle bag in response to a thread about alligator and crocodile bar wrap. My leather is cow stamped to look like 'gator.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds

When I finished adjusting the shifting yesterday afternoon, I took it for a couple of quick laps around the neighborhood. This is going to be a fun ride!

tcs 01-12-23 09:39 AM


Originally Posted by Macguyver909 (Post 22765828)
The ride is not too bad for hills, save for one.

One hill. Not a range of mountains. Not a 23km col. One hill.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f1a5b3ee37.gif

markk900 01-12-23 10:20 AM

pastorbobnlnh What a stunner!

1989Pre 01-12-23 11:18 AM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 22765939)
I once thought about building a wheelset around Harden hubs for a fixed gear build of a 1950ish Armstrong Consort 531 frame

I am particular to early Armstrongs, like the Consort, Moth, Peerless and Continental models. I've never ridden a fixed-gear bike in my life.., and without a velodrome near-by, I don't think I ever will. The wheels will be here, though.

rudypyatt 01-12-23 05:01 PM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 22766238)
I've never participated in this thread since joining BF-C&V back in 2005, primarily because I lived in the NH mountains for 20 years, and I needed more than a three-speed to manage my hills.

Retirement near the end of 2021 brought about a relocation to a flat coastal island. Finally, IGH would make sense! I built a five-speed around a modern Sturmey Archer hub. However, the gear steps of about 20-25%, while fine for errands, were not ideal for fast exercise riding.

Last September, @nlerner offered a 27" wheel laced to a 1951 SA-AM for sale on the Classified page. I snapped it up, and began building this:
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds

A 1975 Schwinn Voyageur II (made by Panasonic). It's a mismatch of parts; front wheel is a 48 spoke Phil Wood hub, tandem wheel. The crankset and BB are from a 1950s ladies Schwinn Superior, MAFAC Racer brakes, DiaCompe levers, and a Campagnolo Record headset.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds


I made the leather bar covers, hoods, and saddle bag in response to a thread about alligator and crocodile bar wrap. My leather is cow stamped to look like 'gator.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...720&fit=bounds

When I finished adjusting the shifting yesterday afternoon, I took it for a couple of quick laps around the neighborhood. This is going to be a fun ride!

I really like this setup. I wish SA would bring out a modern version of the AM hub. Conceptually, it seems that it would be straightforward to tweak the SRF3 to give closer ratios. It seems the closest thing theyíve had to a medium ratio three speed in modern times is the S3X fixed hub; I know you can thread a freewheel onto it. I might have to try that; seems it would work well for a flat crit.

Ged117 01-12-23 06:17 PM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 22766238)
I've never participated in this thread since joining BF-C&V back in 2005, primarily because I lived in the NH mountains for 20 years, and I needed more than a three-speed to manage my hills.

Retirement near the end of 2021 brought about a relocation to a flat coastal island. Finally, IGH would make sense! I built a five-speed around a modern Sturmey Archer hub. However, the gear steps of about 20-25%, while fine for errands, were not ideal for fast exercise riding.

Last September, @nlerner offered a 27" wheel laced to a 1951 SA-AM for sale on the Classified page. I snapped it up, and began building this:


A 1975 Schwinn Voyageur II (made by Panasonic). It's a mismatch of parts; front wheel is a 48 spoke Phil Wood hub, tandem wheel. The crankset and BB are from a 1950s ladies Schwinn Superior, MAFAC Racer brakes, DiaCompe levers, and a Campagnolo Record headset.

I made the leather bar covers, hoods, and saddle bag in response to a thread about alligator and crocodile bar wrap. My leather is cow stamped to look like 'gator.

When I finished adjusting the shifting yesterday afternoon, I took it for a couple of quick laps around the neighborhood. This is going to be a fun ride!

An absolute head turner! This is a nice build of a Voyageur into a classic hub gear touring road bike. Curious to hear your impressions of the AM - a medium ratio three speed - kind of like my S5 when the left side indicator is tight (2,3,4) versus the wide ratio (1,3,5) when it is loose.


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 22766449)
I am particular to early Armstrongs, like the Consort, Moth, Peerless and Continental models. I've never ridden a fixed-gear bike in my life.., and without a velodrome near-by, I don't think I ever will. The wheels will be here, though.

Here's the frame I am hoping to receive, a 1950ish Armstrong Consort. Fixed gear can be incredibly fun - first time for me was my grandparents' place - they had an old CCM (Canadian Cycle and Motor corporation) fixed gear roadster. I built up my first fixed road bike two years ago and got hooked. If you ever get the chance, give it a try, it can be addictive. Thanks for the offer - if this frame comes, I may knock at your door.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...edca889d_b.jpgs-l1600

tcs 01-12-23 09:19 PM


Originally Posted by rudypyatt (Post 22766891)
I wish SA would bring out a modern version of the AM hub. Conceptually, it seems that it would be straightforward to tweak the SRF3 to give closer ratios.

The Sachs Spectro 7 had 17~18% steps and that's about as small as you can go with single-stage non-compound gears. The AM was a single-stage compound planetary.

Fun fact: Inside the Sturmey XRF8 is a narrow range (~13% steps) six-speed.

1989Pre 01-13-23 06:38 AM


Originally Posted by SkinGriz (Post 22765989)
How much do these weigh?

What could they weigh with newer bars, crank arms, 559 alloy wheels, etc?

I understand low weight isnít the point, but sometimes understanding the possibilities helps me understand the median.

Thank you.

Usually about forty pounds, I think. Yeah, you can lighten it up and run it as a path racer if you want...

clubman 01-13-23 07:27 AM

@SkinGriz, manage your expections. A 'weight weenie' Sports is in the mid/low 30's if you're lucky. Part of the charm is it's rolling mass, going downhill in the rain, wondering when you last dialed in your brakes.:D


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