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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

clubman 08-18-17 02:28 PM

Hard to tell. The 58 Dawn came with a single speed and hockey stick chainguard. The Dawn Tourist came with the enclosed chainguard. The brazed pulley mount suggests 58-59. Do you have 26 or 28 inch wheels?
Serial numbers are unreliable but even without a rear SA hub date, you're still in the right time frame.


Originally Posted by plympton (Post 19801745)
Attachment 576692

Attachment 576693Found!!! serial # 69722
This Raleigh is my winter restoration project. Restoration because of the repaint done about 1970 and because of wrong pedals and rear fender. Very good otherwise. Single speed. I couldn't find the serial number in any of the suggested places. you can see where it is,where the top tube plugs into the seat tube on the left side.
It is not a 1900 Raleigh
I am inclined, with your opinions and knowledge notwithstanding, to call it a 1959 Dawn Tourist.

Sheldon says Raleigh reused serial number on some 60's and 70's frames.
This bottom bracket has an oiler. Discontinued 1960?ish
Bike had 1959 State bicycle license plate attached when purchased at yard sale in 2000.
So maybe---maybe not.


BigChief 08-18-17 02:49 PM

@plympton As I recall, your bike has the earlier style head tube lug (bracket) shape. That dates it the frame to before 1955. Now, with this new photo, I see another detail. It has a brazed on guide pulley lug on the top tube (1951-1959). So a frame with both of these details dates it between 1951 and 1954.

plympton 08-18-17 02:52 PM

23" bike with 26" wheels. Should be a fun project. Is re-chroming expensive? Never had it done. All the pieces together wouldn't fill a dip basket.

clubman 08-18-17 03:10 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19801979)
@plympton As I recall, your bike has the earlier style head tube lug (bracket) shape. That dates it the frame to before 1955. Now, with this new photo, I see another detail. It has a brazed on guide pulley lug on the top tube (1951-1959). So a frame with both of these details dates it between 1951 and 1954.

Hey BigChief, not to question your eyesight but how can you see that head tube lug? Is there a another set of pics?

markk900 08-18-17 04:32 PM


Originally Posted by treebound (Post 19799247)
Short segment of today's ride, handheld phone recording, listening to all the clicks and clanks and rattles. I don't recall if other 3-speeds I've had sounded like this.

https://vimeo.com/230046077
(not sure if I'm posting the video correctly)

I didn't hear anything unusual....some of mine are noisier than others, and chaincases are especially bad....

BigChief 08-18-17 04:36 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 19802020)
Hey BigChief, not to question your eyesight but how can you see that head tube lug? Is there a another set of pics?

Hmmm. Am I thinking of another bike? That could be. I think my memory might be getting worse as I age, but I can't remember if it was any better when I was young.:eek:

plympton 08-18-17 05:52 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Attachment 576727

Attachment 576728

Attachment 576729Here are other pictures. Head tube lug shape.

clubman 08-18-17 06:11 PM

I can't tell any difference between this and other models. Kurt K has documented lug patterns for Sports models on The Headbadge but maybe someone else with 50's DL-1s can chime in. OP, if you find similarities with serial numbers from the late 50's, go with it until proven otherwise.

BigChief 08-18-17 06:13 PM

Ah Thank you!! I'm not going dodgy after all. Yup, pre 55 lug shape. The 1948 catalog shows the Dawn models with clamp on guides. The 1951 catalog shows the Dawn with the brazed on guide.
Retro Raleighs-1951 Raleigh Catalogue Page 20 Dawn

clubman 08-18-17 06:26 PM

Thanks BigChief, learn some new every day.

BigChief 08-18-17 07:18 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Speaking of lug shapes. I should really start saying brackets. There is something I'd like to know that would help me in dating Raleigh frames. A couple of years ago, I bought this over painted and incomplete 50s Rudge to build my scorcher. While I was doing the prep work I noticed the head tube and seat tube lugs had a shape at the top tube joint I've never noticed before. It has an outward U shape at the top instead of the inward V shape. The front of the lug has the post 55 shape that Raleigh used all the way to the end of production. The hub date on this bike is Jan 55. I'd love to know when this top tube joint was changed and was wondering if anyone here with 1950s Raleigh made Sports frames would help me out.
The green frame here is from a 1969 Sports. The black one is my 55 Rudge. Thanks.

Attachment 576753

Attachment 576754

3speedslow 08-18-17 08:52 PM

^^ would love to see some full shots of this Rudge scorcher if you have any.

browngw 08-18-17 09:03 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19799788)
This early 60's Rudge frame will be my 3 speed drop bar conversion choice. It came to me all original and as a 10 speed. The spacing in the rear is already close to what an SA needs.

Since I have had this, it has stayed as a 10 speed, gone to a 5 speed and spent a little time as a single speed. Time for it to enjoy the gentlemanly 3 speed style.

I have a 59' SA hub coming from @clubman plus a few helpful bits to help the project along. Can't wait!

While I wait, i worked up the ERD of the 27" Dunlop rim and measurement of an SA hub. Plugged those numbers into a few sites and came up with the spoke length. Went to the spoke box and got lucky, plenty of stainless spokes to do the 40 hole hub. Ready when it arrives...

A few views


That Rudge is a great looking old bike! Good luck with the project. I reminds me of my '58 Sun Cresta.

BigChief 08-19-17 04:46 AM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19802668)
^^ would love to see some full shots of this Rudge scorcher if you have any.

Sure. I wanted to recreate a bike I had as a teenager and always regretted selling. It had a non Raleigh fork and Schwinn front wheel. I replaced the wheel with a 40 dollar stay true. Not a bad wheel BTW. My original Rudge had flipped bars, no kit for fixing flats or kick stand. I did have to make some rather non scorcher changes to suit my older body like a 22T cog,tool kit, stand and seat with a central relief channel. Since this is a 21" frame, I had to use an extra length stem to get the leg extension and upper body balance I need for longer rides.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4324/...58cf37b7_k.jpgRudge Scorcher by Billy Bones, on Flickr

clubman 08-19-17 06:25 AM

@BigChief. Must be a Rudge lug, my early 50's has it too
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/w5...o=w509-h902-no

52 Humber has a Birds mouth at the front, plain at the seat tube.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a0...=w1604-h902-no

BigChief 08-19-17 07:27 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 19803142)
@BigChief. Must be a Rudge lug, my early 50's has it too
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/w5...o=w509-h902-no

52 Humber has a Birds mouth at the front, plain at the seat tube.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a0...=w1604-h902-no

I wonder if it is specific to Rudge. Raleigh did continue to make the hand chainwheels and oval crown forks with Rudge style chrome caps when they took over production.
It's hard to make out lug shapes in most photos and catalog pictures. I did see a very original 1954 Raleigh Sports in person once and the front of the head lug was a plain oval like a DL1, the top tube joint was that birds mouth shape and the seat tube lug had a plain straight edge. That's how I came to date the more elaborate shaped lugs to around 1955.

clubman 08-19-17 07:42 AM

The Headbadge dates plain lugs and birdmouths to 53. Yours could have been transitional. I think they often used what was available.
http://www.kurtkaminer.com/raleigh_sportsketch_1951.jpg

3speedslow 08-19-17 11:00 AM

@BigChief That looks like a fun machine! Great use of an old Rudge too.

When I complete the Rudge conversion I have I will start on my own Raleigh Sport scorcher build. I have a 21" frame as well. Don't know if it will go 3 speed or single speed. It will definetly have the flipped north roads, no fenders or chain guard.

3speedslow 08-19-17 11:05 AM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 19802689)
That Rudge is a great looking old bike! Good luck with the project. I reminds me of my '58 Sun Cresta.

Thanks, I only hope it comes out half as nice as that 58 Sun of yours. Do you get to ride it on a regular basis? I want mine to be a Reg rider when I'm done. I will have to make considerations for weather though. Hopefully Koolstop pads will improve braking if I get into some wet stuff.

BigChief 08-19-17 11:20 AM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19803639)
@BigChief That looks like a fun machine! Great use of an old Rudge too.

When I complete the Rudge conversion I have I will start on my own Raleigh Sport scorcher build. I have a 21" frame as well. Don't know if it will go 3 speed or single speed. It will definetly have the flipped north roads, no fenders or chain guard.

Yes, a proper scorcher should have flipped north roads. I just can't spend much time on drop bars anymore. I'm 100% sold on Kool Stops. I've only tried the salmon colored ones, but when you find something that works so well, you don't mess with it. Looking forward to seeing your Raleigh scorcher come along. Love the Rudge. That will be one sharp bike!

3speedslow 08-19-17 11:34 AM

Thanks BigChief!

The scorcher will be my black frame Raleigh. I will have flipped bars only because the Raleigh stem has a tall rise! I have a set of the salmon KS, I heard they come in grey or black, my preference.

plympton 08-19-17 01:03 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Through all your efforts and my getting hear your opinions. I fell that the age is narrowed down to 1951-1961 with leanings toward 54-58. Five or six more picture may prompt mare conversation.Attachment 576844

Attachment 576845

Attachment 576846

Attachment 576847

plympton 08-19-17 01:07 PM

4 Attachment(s)
And then again is it a 54 or a 58? Serial # 69722? Attachment 576848

Attachment 576849

Attachment 576850

Attachment 576851

BigChief 08-19-17 02:07 PM

There's no doubt that this is an early 50s frame.

3speedslow 08-19-17 02:24 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I would not have thought this bike would be a single speed model. Maybe I missed something, have to go back and read when it was introduced. The hubs on this machine are exact what came on my early 60s Rudge 10 speed.

BTW, if at all possible, I would love to know the spoke length used for the rear wheel.

Interesting project to clean up!

3speedslow 08-19-17 02:41 PM

@plympton is the headbadge aluminium? What years were they going with that metal?

browngw 08-19-17 02:47 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19803653)
Thanks, I only hope it comes out half as nice as that 58 Sun of yours. Do you get to ride it on a regular basis? I want mine to be a Reg rider when I'm done. I will have to make considerations for weather though. Hopefully Koolstop pads will improve braking if I get into some wet stuff.

I would love to use it more, but the gearing is too high for me for everyday use. Last Sunday I rode it 25km on a rail trail in the lowest gear so my wife could keep up! I would be better off with a 3 speed as well for gearing. If I could find the right parts I would convert the 52T chain ring or add a double. I'm conflicted as it is a fairly rare otherwise unmolested Sun.

3speedslow 08-19-17 04:01 PM

That is such a beautiful machine.

I think if you saved everything you took off, it would be exceptable to find a lower toothed chainring or build another wheel using a period 3 speed hub.

But then this is just my opinion.

3 speeds down on the coast where I am just make sense for old English bikes.

plympton 08-19-17 04:06 PM

Is the Head badge aluminum? I don't know it. It's non-magnetic though. The rivets have an unusual crown, I hope there the kind that can be saved.

3speedslow 08-19-17 04:17 PM

They are riveted that way from the factory. If at all possible I would not remove the badge.

Sure looks like aluminium.


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