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pierrej 10-23-18 08:09 AM


Originally Posted by ruudlaff (Post 20629120)
Yes there's no doubt Carleton can be a bit pissy with you, but there's no doubting there are others too, and by and large I think it's largely due to a level of arrogance they have had to listen to.

I'd rather stay out of this one as well, but it appears she's had a similar history over on the 33, of course not under the fox moniker for whatever reason that may be.

gl98115 10-23-18 11:42 AM

It would be nice if the mods would move this discussion to a separate thread.

rustymongrel 10-23-18 04:09 PM

Here are my two cents:

It seems the rules have existed in their current form for some time now. If these rules were so blatantly misguided wouldn't podiums at major sporting events (major means definitely not a masters event) reflect it? This is a case of one person who won one MASTERS event, why does that require such a vigorous re-examination of the rules?

It's possible for people to rise to the high level of a sport quickly without PEDs or being Transgender. I took up cycling in my early 20's on top of another sport I competed in during my youth. At roughly the same time a woman I knew from that sport also took up cycling. She was competing at the elite level nationally after one season and after 3 seasons was on the national team racing at world cups. In the other sport I had competed at a much higher level than her and yet I haven't been on any cycling world championship podiums.

carleton 10-23-18 06:49 PM

Addressing this issue only:

Please don't discount events because they are "only Masters".

Masters racers train as hard, spend as much money (actually more), and sacrifice as much time from family and careers to participate as do elites. I've trained alongside elites and have been coached by coaches of elites and, while the volume and intensity of the training may be different, the commitment is the same. The pain is the same. The fatigue is the same. The cramps are the same. The self-doubt is the same.

Note that many top masters also give elites a run for their money. Several masters here on BF also compete at the elite national level. I was coached by a "master" who won the elite Kilo back to back in 2007. He shared the podium with Taylor Phinney in 2008...in his 40s.

Here are the US Elite Sprint and Kilo podiums from 2008. Phinney and Watkins are Olympians. Rockmore was an up and coming elite sprinter (not sure what happened to him). Hill was 42 year old Master.

https://i.imgur.com/SibSIdO.png
https://i.imgur.com/JDIK8ex.png

If I have my story right, Hill was an elite racer when younger, left the sport for career, came back as a master, then got elite fast again.

It's my understanding that Cari Higgins actually started as a masters racer and got pro fast and represented the US in international elite competition taking home lots of hardware from Pan Ams and World Cups.

http://www.roadbikereview.com/review...-greg-pent.jpg

I could cite several more examples.

Further...

I'll be damned if I train for a full year only to be beaten by someone who breaks the rules in the biggest event of the year (how many US Masters have been busted for doping?).

All sports is relative. A masters racer lining up for Masters Nationals or Worlds has the same jitters as the elite. And I imagine winning and losing feel equally as sweet and bitter.

Anywho...masters is kind of a big deal at the faster end of it.

rustymongrel 10-24-18 06:32 AM

I think this post from earlier pretty much sums up my feelings. Things like racing categories and age groups/masters racing are great because they make competition more fun and accessible for people of different ability levels. Elite competition is different



Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 20627633)
Right?


As a bike racer, I've come to terms with disappointment a lot - being beaten by people who outclass the rest of the field; being beaten by full time athletes who just get to train more and recover better; athletes who don't have to travel to this race that we're both at; or natural athletes who just start out a ****load faster, stronger, and better than I did. I think that the stuff around sex and gender with trans participation hits some competitive people hard because we like to think that we have a shot of winning, and we like to think that there is something fundamentally disqualifying about people who beat us: to too many bike racers, winners are either dopers or sandbaggers. I've seen a lot of bike racers (and surely it's similar in other sports) try to figure out how to ensure that racing is a "level playing field" - which, honestly, means that a lot of people want to ensure that they're only racing races where they have a reasonable shot at winning or medaling.


But sports aren't about a fair playing field or having a shot at winning. For me, it's about coming to terms with the certainty that I am not the best - that there are a lot of people who are better than me - and the more I try to slice away at the competition to remove them from the starting line in the first place, the more I smell bull**** on my breath - you know?


Cycling lets you touch the hem of your dreams. A guy I race with at ttown just won the World Cup Scratch Race; USA Cycling has been sending riders I've beaten to World Cups and other international races. I can, for a moment, flirt with the notion that I could have been there too. But then I remember that everything's more complicated than that.


I think I understand this because of my experience in another sport. If I went back to swimming tomorrow and was able to get close to how fast I was 7 years ago in college I would be on the podium at masters worlds in multiple events and probably win one. To me that means nothing since there would still be literally thousands of elites posting faster times than that any given year.


Anyways, correct me if I'm wrong but no rules have been broken here right? Like I said before I don't think the fact that one athlete winning one event at Masters worlds is reason enough to have this much debate on the validity of the rules. If multiple Trans athletes are dominating podiums at elite worlds then maybe.

rensho3 10-24-18 10:32 AM

Carleton: :thumb:

seau grateau 10-24-18 11:04 AM


Originally Posted by rustymongrel (Post 20630890)
Anyways, correct me if I'm wrong but no rules have been broken here right? Like I said before I don't think the fact that one athlete winning one event at Masters worlds is reason enough to have this much debate on the validity of the rules. If multiple Trans athletes are dominating podiums at elite worlds then maybe.

Yep -- I haven't read or heard anything that points to any rules being broken. And regardless of any personal feelings, McKinnon's accomplishment is momentous.
What I wonder is -- the current system of sport with regard to men's and women's classifications was created without consideration for transgender athletes (correct me if I'm wrong), so would it look different if it were rebuilt from the ground up today with transgender athletes' inclusion as a real consideration rather than an afterthought?

700wheel 11-10-18 02:15 PM

The gift of losing:
0.490 Seconds. ? ALP Cycles Coaching

Morelock 11-15-18 04:50 AM

Now you can buy (if you're in the UK at least) the chain GB used at the Rio Olympics... I'm as big of an efficiency nerd as you'll find, but even I raised an eyebrow reading this ;)

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/p...t-cheap-400017

700wheel 11-15-18 09:58 AM


Originally Posted by Morelock (Post 20663882)
Now you can buy (if you're in the UK at least) the chain GB used at the Rio Olympics... I'm as big of an efficiency nerd as you'll find, but even I raised an eyebrow reading this ;)

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/p...t-cheap-400017

Or you could duplicate Wiggins and use a $7,800 chain (source: My Hour by Wiggins, page 53).

carleton 11-15-18 11:50 AM

Am I missing something here?

Are these chains significantly (or even moderately) better than a high quality, off-the-rack, properly lubricated, properly tensioned, un-stretched chain? Like the Izumi ECO or Super Toughness.

Anyone got any info that's not marketing material?

Morelock 11-15-18 12:47 PM

It's tough to test at home... or small scale at all. Enough time and you might tease it out like folks do with crr on tyres, but it'd be a task looking for such small % without proper equipment.

There is some % to be saved for sure. How much would depend on so many factors it'd be tough to put into cohesion. As ^700w alluded to, Wiggins Hour Record chain was the "best" of a bunch of (already high end) chains that were tested (there's variance in each chain from manufacturing)

If you were very interested in removing as much chain friction as possible, you'd buy an 11 speed Dura Ace chain, have it stripped and treated (lots of different ways to do it... I've never seen anything that was demonstrably better than the old Speed Wax recipe - cheap too!) and run the biggest chainring/cog combo you could. All 3/32 of course.
Hard to say what the difference between that and an Izumi would be... I don't know any tests that have been done on popular 1/8 chains. My guess is there is a fair gain there though... a watt?

carleton 11-15-18 02:15 PM

Well, if anyone else wants to buy an extra watt, I’m available to scream bloody murder at you as you pass by every lap of your big event, or I could whisper motivational phrases in your ear in the infield (whatever floats your boat)...for $7,800 :D

Morelock 11-15-18 03:07 PM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20664668)
Well, if anyone else wants to buy an extra watt, I’m available to scream bloody murder at you as you pass by every lap of your big event, or I could whisper motivational phrases in your ear in the infield (whatever floats your boat)...for $7,800 :D

I've been trying to sell myself as a personal "hype man" for years. There's got to be a market! All we need is a half hearted "study" showing a small improvement and people will eat it up!

tobukog 11-15-18 08:08 PM


Originally Posted by Morelock (Post 20664519)
It's tough to test at home... or small scale at all. Enough time and you might tease it out like folks do with crr on tyres, but it'd be a task looking for such small % without proper equipment.

There is some % to be saved for sure. How much would depend on so many factors it'd be tough to put into cohesion. As ^700w alluded to, Wiggins Hour Record chain was the "best" of a bunch of (already high end) chains that were tested (there's variance in each chain from manufacturing)

If you were very interested in removing as much chain friction as possible, you'd buy an 11 speed Dura Ace chain, have it stripped and treated (lots of different ways to do it... I've never seen anything that was demonstrably better than the old Speed Wax recipe - cheap too!) and run the biggest chainring/cog combo you could. All 3/32 of course.
Hard to say what the difference between that and an Izumi would be... I don't know any tests that have been done on popular 1/8 chains. My guess is there is a fair gain there though... a watt?

I'm going to guess that there's more than 1w to be gained with the right chain -- if I recall there was a significant difference between 105? and Dura Ace chains in a Velo News test several years back. Wiggins, Pierce, and Van Houweling all used a super narrow Dura Ace bushingless chain manufactured by Izumi. The problem with the Dura Ace is that the bushingless design makes it easier to ship the chain in a mass start race. Many enduros are following the trend and running 3/32 and Izumi will be making a more advanced 3/32 chain this winter, will probably make an even faster chain next year in both 1/8 and 3/32.

Morelock 11-16-18 03:24 AM

There may be more than a watt... But compared to what? The very best 1/8 chain you can make /buy vs the best dura ace chain... I'm sure there's a difference, but slick drivetrain are already nearly 97-8%efficient, so there aren't big watt jumps from great to the best. Imo of course

tobukog 11-16-18 06:18 AM


Originally Posted by Morelock (Post 20665303)
There may be more than a watt... But compared to what? The very best 1/8 chain you can make /buy vs the best dura ace chain... I'm sure there's a difference, but slick drivetrain are already nearly 97-8%efficient, so there aren't big watt jumps from great to the best. Imo of course

You might be right. But I think when VeloNews did their test there was a 5w? difference between the 105 and Dura Ace. Maybe I'm misremembering. Some people are now thinking that the current bushing type chain design inherently has more friction than bushingless road chains.

Morelock 11-16-18 06:27 AM

^ definitely possible. The difference between 105 and DA is big though. For trackies the problem is whether 1/8 is inherently worse than 3/32, or just that the 1/8 we have (which are generally marketed towards "tough" "unbreakable" etc) are worse. Without someone throwing them on the frictionfacts machine (or similar) it's just so tough to guess what starting place the 1/8 chain is at to then compare it to the DA chain. 5 watts is definitely possible in the drivetrain, no arguing that, I'm just hesitant to say there's that much difference between the "best" (whatever that is) 1/8 to a 3/32 DA chain. I have no doubt there is *some* difference though. It would be a fun test/project to build the ultimate enduro 1/8 chain.

*If anyone has a good test protocol and wants to try some high end 1/8 chains I've got
-Izumi (silver) chains - 1 waxed, 1 waxed + additives
-KMC 710sl - waxed + additives (that's the chain a lot of the uk guys - aerocoach,etc use)
-Izumi Super Toughness prototype from Premier Bicycles (triathlon bike manufacturer) which has been stripped/polished/coated

taras0000 11-16-18 07:21 PM

ASE files for chapter 11

https://www.velonews.com/2018/11/new...kruptcy_481472

I wonder if this will end up causing problems for some of the brands down the road. Maybe Fuji might be in trouble.

carleton 11-17-18 12:42 AM


Originally Posted by taras0000 (Post 20666467)
ASE files for chapter 11

https://www.velonews.com/2018/11/new...kruptcy_481472

I wonder if this will end up causing problems for some of the brands down the road. Maybe Fuji might be in trouble.

It involves probably everyone in the bike business.


Advanced Sports Enterprises (ASE), the parent company of retail chain Performance Bicycle, as well as bike brands Fuji, Kestrel, and Breezer Bikes, has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, the company confirmed Friday.

ASE was formed in August 2016 when Advanced Sports International merged with Performance Bicycle. The company also owns Bike Nashbar, SE, and Tuesday Cycles
Trying to offer a potential reason without getting into politics:

Sep 19, 2018:

[a certain President of the United States] approved import tariffs on 200 billion dollars worth of Chinese imports including $1 billion in goods in bicycle parts and components.
https://mbaction.com/trump-approves-...ycle-products/

Chapter 11 vs Chapter 7
:


When a business is unable to service its debt or pay its creditors, the business or its creditors can file with a federal bankruptcy court for protection under either Chapter 7 or Chapter 11.

In Chapter 7, the business ceases operations, a trustee sells all of its assets, and then distributes the proceeds to its creditors. Any residual amount is returned to the owners of the company.

In Chapter 11, in most instances the debtor remains in control of its business operations as a debtor in possession, and is subject to the oversight and jurisdiction of the court.

carleton 11-17-18 12:46 AM

More:


[a certain President of the United States] ’s Tariffs on China Bike Imports Brings ‘Devastation to U.S. Industry’

WASHINGTON, USA – The by [a certain President of the United States] triggered trade war with China has led the United States to charge the import of regular bicycles as well as electric bikes and bike products from China with a 25 percent tariff. This comes on top of the regular 11 percent import duty (on ordinary bicycles) resulting in a total import tax rate of 36 percent. According to the country’s biggest bicycle importer – Huffy Corporation – it will have devastating impact on bike sales and it will devastate the American bicycle industry.

[a certain President of the United States] ’s Tariffs on China Bike Imports Brings ‘Devastation to U.S. Industry’ According to Huffy, U.S. biggest bicycle importer, Trump tariffs will have ‘devastating’ impact on bike sales.

The United States started to impose the 25 percent tariff on all bicycles imported from China on August 23. Earlier, at the public consultation rounds, Huffy’s President and CEO Bill Smith said in his comments to the U.S. Trade Representative “The tariff solves no problems. It only creates problems.” In particular as it brings serious disruptions to the current world trade in bikes and parts. That comes with the huge import volume in bicycles the Unites States annually imports from China.
https://www.bike-eu.com/sales-trends...ustry-10134414

carleton 11-17-18 12:48 AM

Profit margins in the bike game are already very, very slim compared to other retail markets (electronics, clothing, etc...). So, a 25% tariff is a death knell.

If Performance can't hang, what of the local bike shops?

gycho77 11-17-18 06:50 AM


Baby Puke 11-17-18 07:02 AM


Originally Posted by gycho77 (Post 20666834)
New Bridgestone track frame?

Yep. The national team has been using them at the World Cups. Hoping to see one in person relatively soon, will post pics if that happens.

carleton 11-17-18 09:07 AM

@Spoonrobot, these issues that we both mention are not mutually-exclusive.

https://froggingit.files.wordpress.c...-both-meme.jpg


That's interesting!

Integrated seat mast...

https://mind-exchange.com/wp-content...in-spanish.jpg

gl98115 11-17-18 11:29 AM


Originally Posted by Spoonrobot (Post 20666778)
I don't think the issues with Performance have much relevance to the LBS, in this specific instance. And really closing 40 stores is going to drive a fair chunk of business to LBS, I suspect a great portion will go to REI as they are often much closer to each other than to an LBS but still would expect to see a lot of customers convert to their LBS.

Interesting analysis. Your comments confirm the odd vibe I get from the Seattle store. All bikes and very little of anything else. A couple years back they consolidated the store to a smaller footprint and the repair shop suffered the most while all the racks of bikes stayed. And bikes there were perpetually 'on sale'. Other shops in the area (and there are many) seem to be reducing bike inventory and focusing on customer service instead. And then there is REI.

Too bad. I remember they and Nashbar being my favorite mail-order stores (pre-internet) BITD and I actually was excited to shop at the Chapel Hill store on a visit to the area.

Edit: Looks like the Seattle store didn't make the cut:

https://www.performancebike.com/shop/free-shipping

gycho77 11-17-18 01:25 PM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20666915)
@Spoonrobot, these issues that we both mention are not mutually-exclusive.

https://froggingit.files.wordpress.c...-both-meme.jpg




That's interesting!

Integrated seat mast...

https://mind-exchange.com/wp-content...in-spanish.jpg

it looks like Look R96 with shorter dropout and better fork

gl98115 11-17-18 04:06 PM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20666915)
@Spoonrobot, these issues that we both mention are not mutually-exclusive.

True, but if you read the article that @Spoonrobot linked you find that Performance was headed to bankruptcy years ago and there is no mention of the current and future tariffs. It would have been easy for the CEO to blame the gov't for their problems, but he didn't.

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/indu...ile-chapter-11

tobukog 11-17-18 05:12 PM

Not necessarily related to Performance, but most of us are going to feel some effect from the tariffs. Business doesn't like uncertainty, and even the threat of tariffs in the bicycle industry makes it difficult for companies which are dependent on production or materials from International sources to confidently plan for the future. For myself, the team that I ride for lost a primary sponsor because they just couldn't determine if they could afford to continue sponsorship in the current climate of uncertainty.

700wheel 11-17-18 05:49 PM

The UCI has updated the rules for aerobars:

"...….the UCI also further refined the rules for time trial bikes, specifying the arm extensions for road time trial and track pursuit bikes must be in two parts, and there can only be elbow rests if there are also extensions. The rest can be only 12.5cm wide or long, and can only incline 15 degrees. There can only be a 10cm rise or drop between the elbow rest and the end of the extensions."

Source: UCI adds sock height, aero fabric regulations to 2019 rulebook | Cyclingnews.com


What does "two parts" mean? My aerobars contain eight parts excluding screws and bar tape (if they mean two assemblies then mine comply).


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