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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

photogravity 04-02-13 07:39 AM


Originally Posted by rhm (Post 15458903)
No, I think you are mistaken about the tubing. The Clubman had straight gauge tubing; only the RRA had butted.

The lugs and chromed fork ends on Baz's bike are all consistent with a Clubman of that period. The Super Lenton, as far as I can tell from some bad photos on the internet, had different lugs. Baz's bike also has aluminum brakes and handlebar, as well as the chain ring with heron heads, all of which point to a Clubman.

I'm not sure how much weight to put on the lug designs used; I've seen Lenton Sports with both fancy lugs (as on Baz's) and plain. But Baz's bike has enough Clubman features to make me pretty confident that's what he has.

Baz, I have that same saddle and have not figured out the stamp on it either. Two letters, the first maybe E or F, and the second obviously S, between the words "TRADE MARK." I'm thinking it's a Japanese saddle from the 70's, on account of the frame design, but I'm not certain about this yet.

If you decide to repaint your Raleigh, you can get the correct decals from H. Lloyd Cycles.

I was mistaken about the tubing. The Clubman indeed straight gauge 531. Why I though the Clubman was made from butted 531, I'm not sure. Given that the Super Lenton wasn't introduced until 1952 and the serial number indicates the bicycle is a 1951, it appears auchencrow is correct in calling it a Clubman.

Salubrious 04-02-13 10:57 AM

Monolithik, the handlebars, stem, brake levers and calipers are correct, if not for the bike certainly for the period. The Sport calipers as shown date from the 50s (not the 60s, which would be a Sport Mk3). Seems unlikely that someone would change that out years after the fact and get the period right as we see in the photos. Although the condition is deplorable, it seems this bike is worthy of renovation.

Velognome 04-02-13 11:10 AM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 15459992)
Monolithik, the handlebars, stem, brake levers and calipers are correct, if not for the bike certainly for the period. The Sport calipers as shown date from the 50s (not the 60s, which would be a Sport Mk3). Seems unlikely that someone would change that out years after the fact and get the period right as we see in the photos. Although the condition is deplorable, it seems this bike is worthy of renovation.

Introduced in 1953 according to Hilary stone
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk...s/gbsport3.JPG

Not sure if they were OEM for Raleighs of the period

Monolithik 04-02-13 01:10 PM

Thank you all!
I guess I misread the post where the date of the bike was given-I thought it said the bike was a 53.
Since I'm brand new to the nomenclature, would calling this bike a 1951 Raleigh Lenton Clubman be correct?

Looks like I'll be attempting to resurrect this bike- gentle rust removal, try to find the original color under what appears to be brushed on enamel, new stickers, cables, brake pads and tyres, see if the saddle can be restored, and get this on the road again. Now, off to search restoration tips and how tos.

I greatly appreciate your knowledge and help in solving a nearly 30 year mystery for me!

Baz

rhm 04-02-13 01:15 PM

I would tentatively call it a 1951 Raleigh Clubman.

As you have probably realized by now, Raleigh gave these bikes a very durable black gloss undercoat with a "polychromatic" color over that, with decals over that. If the present paint went over the original, then it's presumably because the original looked pretty bad; so you will probably find the black in good shape but the color coat largely missing. With care you should be able to see enough of the original decals to confirm the model.


Good luck!

Salubrious 04-02-13 01:16 PM

Be careful with the paint removal- if the original finish is intact underneath that stuff you are better off with that than a full-on restoration (at least from what I have seen) in terms of resale.

photogravity 04-02-13 01:21 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 15460736)
Be careful with the paint removal- if the original finish is intact underneath that stuff you are better off with that than a full-on restoration (at least from what I have seen) in terms of resale.

+1 I definitely would be careful with removal of that god-awful paint as you may get some very good clues on what the bicycle actually is. I have found that badly done repaints over original paint tend to be fairly easy to remove if you are patient in your work.

Velognome 04-02-13 05:32 PM

Question. The '50 Clubman had a brazed fitting for the fulcrum which this example has also, correct? But the steerer on this fork of thjis example is long enough to accept a Headclip, I didn't think the '50 Clubman had headclips? Maybe I'm wrong and confused.

SirMike1983 04-02-13 05:45 PM

Removing home paint jobs is slow, tedious work. You have to first identify a solvent that will help remove the overpaint, but with minimal harm to the original. Sometimes it's paint thinner, sometimes it's acetone, and even other times water. Water is the best because then you have a modern latex usually, and you can wipe the paint off with some care. Latex usually forms a plastic-like skin and doesn't do much to harm the original factory paint underneath.

Paint thinner works on some oil-based paints and will usually remove light-duty overpaints with some rubbing. I haven't had much of a problem with paint thinner pulling up original Raleigh paint on my bikes when I've used it. Acetone is next and is pretty potent stuff. It will almost certainly pull off the overpaint, but it will also pull off the original factory paint too, so you have to be very careful with it. I recently pulled overpaint off a 1935 Hercules fender. I found the original paint underneath still had a fair bit of shine to it, but the home spray guy had roughed it up for his over paint.

http://bikeshedva.blogspot.com/2013/...d-model-g.html

nlerner 04-02-13 06:42 PM


Originally Posted by Monolithik (Post 15460695)
Thank you all!
I guess I misread the post where the date of the bike was given-I thought it said the bike was a 53.
Since I'm brand new to the nomenclature, would calling this bike a 1951 Raleigh Lenton Clubman be correct?

Looks like I'll be attempting to resurrect this bike- gentle rust removal, try to find the original color under what appears to be brushed on enamel, new stickers, cables, brake pads and tyres, see if the saddle can be restored, and get this on the road again. Now, off to search restoration tips and how tos.

I greatly appreciate your knowledge and help in solving a nearly 30 year mystery for me!

Baz

Given the 27" wheels, I'd say a '50 or '51 Clubman would be a good guess. The Lenton Clubman was only produced in 1948 and had 26 x 1 1/4" wheels, as did the '49 Clubman. One oddity is the 531 sticker, which is the type that *would* have been on the '49 Clubman, but given the repaint, all bets are off as far as originality of stickers.

nlerner 04-02-13 06:44 PM


Originally Posted by Velognome (Post 15461709)
Question. The '50 Clubman had a brazed fitting for the fulcrum which this example has also, correct? But the steerer on this fork of thjis example is long enough to accept a Headclip, I didn't think the '50 Clubman had headclips? Maybe I'm wrong and confused.

The '50 and '51 Clubman were pretty much identical. Both had 27" wheels w/ Dunlop Special Lightweight rims, head clips and the same stem as on the OP's:

1950 Clubman:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-g...0/IMG_5572.JPG

1951 Clubman (yes, these were once the same color blue):
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-C...0/IMG_5560.JPG

Velognome 04-02-13 06:53 PM

very cool, thanks for the education on the head sets. Clubman it is :thumb:

PalmettoUpstate 04-02-13 07:53 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 15454968)
I amassed too much stuff and had to downsize. I try hard to stay focused on British and Canadian bikes but even that has left 30 or 40 bikes in the stable.

Aaarrgh! That would hurt me but I can see where I could be heading to that place. Thankfully I was a Boy Scout once and I took the motto seriously...

PalmettoUpstate 04-02-13 07:59 PM


Originally Posted by Velognome (Post 15462006)
very cool, thanks for the education on the head sets. Clubman it is :thumb:

To you Clubman aficionados: Was there a circuit that these bikes were raced on? IOW, one that specified that a 3-speed tranny, and ONLY a 3-speed could compete in the class?

Velognome 04-02-13 09:07 PM

I believe Club Racing in England was TT on Fixed gear machines and some Close Ratio hubs that were commonly used. The Raleigh Clubman was a do it all Club bike for the weekend warriors. There were some basic rules, like bikes had to be equiped with a bell and fenders, not so sure about type of gears. I'm sure someone much more knowledgable will be along to correct and add to this.

There were also more specific machines like this Sun Manx TT with a shortened wheel base' note the fenders, bell and quadrant shifter for a 3 speed IGH


http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3236/2...4fa_z.jpg?zz=1

Salubrious 04-02-13 09:34 PM

In order to understand why the Sturmey Archer hub was so successful, you have to understand the state of derailers prior to WW2. Which is to say that they really weren't, and the best of them only had 3 speeds that were fairly close ratio. In comparison the Sturmey Archer hub had a wider range and certainly a lot less fiddling to switch the gear while in motion, plus it was a whole lot more reliable.

PalmettoUpstate 04-03-13 02:05 PM


Originally Posted by Velognome (Post 15462544)

There were also more specific machines like this Sun Manx TT with a shortened wheelbase note the fenders, bell and quadrant shifter for a 3 speed IGH


That's a wicked looking machine - IMHO it looks like an accident waiting to happen with the rider's toes in that proximity to the front fender. What was the alleged purpose for this shortened configuration?

PalmettoUpstate 04-03-13 02:09 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 15462624)
In order to understand why the Sturmey Archer hub was so successful, you have to understand the state of derailers prior to WW2. Which is to say that they really weren't, and the best of them only had 3 speeds that were fairly close ratio. In comparison the Sturmey Archer hub had a wider range and certainly a lot less fiddling to switch the gear while in motion, plus it was a whole lot more reliable.

Yes, I seem to recall Sheldon getting into that when I read his introduction to the SA 3-speed hubs way back when I got bitten by the bug. With the proliferation of quality, almost bomb proof, 5-8 gear IGH hubs, it seems that the IGH may have the last laugh...

Salubrious 04-03-13 02:37 PM

Yes, IGHs are by no means done. I've been building bikes to audition them for decades. Sram makes a nice 7-speed hub (spins well and has a nice shifter); the 8-speed Shimano Alfine is nice (get the twist grip shifter), The Alfine 11-speed is amazing (and as good as it is, their shifter is a bad joke) as is the 14-speed Rolhoff (which has the best shifter ever made), which I have on a mountain bike. They all needed some break-in to really perform.

After promising myself I would not mess with derailers again, I do have some bikes that use them. They're OK, but for shear ridability I prefer the IGHs.

Today I rode my Superbe to work- the salt is gone off of the streets finally. I still need to change the rear sprocket, but it was a nice ride with a certain charm. It rolls nicely and is reasonably comfortable (I have an aged Brooks B72 on it, which needs attention). I've rebuilt the wheels with Sun CR18s and found an alloy seatpost on ebay, but its stock otherwise. At lunch I parked in on the sidewalk in front of the restaurant and used the fork lock to keep it from wandering away.

Amesja 04-03-13 05:00 PM

The SRAM 7-speed has a nice shifter?

It's a 1000-mile shifter in my experience. After 1000 miles you need to replace it, the cable, and the clickbox as a unit as the twistgrip is wore out -unless you are the type that never shifts gears.

The hub is nice, until the shifter gets wore out and it starts stuttering and shifting between gears at the wrong time and missing shifts when you do try and shift it. The hub better be tough, because it gets a lot of abuse until the whole unit from the clickbox to the twistgrip gets replaced with a new assembly.

Velognome 04-03-13 07:28 PM


Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate (Post 15465666)
That's a wicked looking machine - IMHO it looks like an accident waiting to happen with the rider's toes in that proximity to the front fender. What was the alleged purpose for this shortened configuration?

Not to worry, the rear wheel is moved forward, the overlap is typical and not a problem. Shortened wheel base makes the bike wicked quick and tight

Monolithik 04-03-13 09:42 PM

Progress report: I got the vice grips and harbor freight 4" grinder out and got to work stripping the bike down.
(Just kidding about the tools.) Actually I washed the bike with car wash soap, then sprayed Gibbs oil on each fastener and all exposed rust, then proceeded to remove components and catalogue them.
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...FE858CF662.jpg
Couldn't find any evidence of another color at all in any of the chips, no evidence of that nice black undercoat either.
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...FE9C49060B.jpg
took the forks off and finally found evidence of an original color in some overspray- looks like green to me.I think someone did a prior strip and "restore"-I cant imagine factory paint being so poorly applied, Looks like the 531 sticker was masked off-some orange infringes on the border of the decal.
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...FEA8A2CB5A.jpg

What is that little pip on the right fork interior?
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...FEB40E0BA8.jpg
The rims look like they had black paint on the sides.
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...FEC9C1783D.jpg
Got it all torn down, all of the rusty bits are covered in Gibbs oil, now I have to decide which derusting process I'm going to attempt. And whether to attempt to repaint.
I'm tempted to run a lighter crank and wheelset and ride the hell out of it while I restore the originals.

wahoonc 04-04-13 04:15 AM


Originally Posted by Monolithik (Post 15467687)
Progress report: I got the vice grips and harbor freight 4" grinder out and got to work stripping the bike down.
(Just kidding about the tools.) Actually I washed the bike with car wash soap, then sprayed Gibbs oil on each fastener and all exposed rust, then proceeded to remove components and catalogue them.


http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...FEA8A2CB5A.jpg

What is that little pip on the right fork interior?
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...FEB40E0BA8.jpg

To keep a headlight bracket from sliding down would be my guess.

Aaron :)

clubman 04-04-13 04:18 AM


Originally Posted by wahoonc (Post 15468178)
To keep a headlight bracket from sliding down would be my guess.

Aaron :)

Rubber cigar for Aaron

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-x...0/DSC06162.JPG

Salubrious 04-04-13 08:58 AM


Originally Posted by Amesja (Post 15466495)
The SRAM 7-speed has a nice shifter?

It's a 1000-mile shifter in my experience. After 1000 miles you need to replace it, the cable, and the clickbox as a unit as the twistgrip is wore out -unless you are the type that never shifts gears.

The hub is nice, until the shifter gets wore out and it starts stuttering and shifting between gears at the wrong time and missing shifts when you do try and shift it. The hub better be tough, because it gets a lot of abuse until the whole unit from the clickbox to the twistgrip gets replaced with a new assembly.

I will defer to your experience- I got nowhere near that before that bike was stolen. However I liked the way it worked to access the gears- bump it with your thumb and you are there.


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