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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

BigChief 07-10-18 07:32 AM

They weren't poorly made. After the TI buyout, quality did became less consistent, poor judgements were made and a line, similar to AMF buying Harley Davidson and CBS buying Fender did develop among roadster enthusiasts. Still, I'm grateful traditional roadsters were produced all through the 70s even if they weren't of the same quality and diversity of the earlier bikes. But this is why you will sometimes hear things like pre Raleigh Hercules and pre TI Raleigh.

browngw 07-10-18 09:01 AM

Spied this "Royal Scot" at the CVBS this past weekend. Sorry I got distracted and did not get a shot of the entire bike.https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4f76d736c0.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...602268e7f5.jpg

browngw 07-10-18 09:08 AM


Originally Posted by mtb_addict (Post 20438895)
Would the B67 be even better for the Raleigh Sport?

The 67 is wider, designed for more upright posture.

The B66 (double rail) or B67 (single rail) is a good choice for the Sports. I have felt comfortable on mine from the first day. Depends what your style is with different bikes. My Salsa adventure bike has a B17 and my old Dilecta road bike has a B17 Narrow.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3a00186642.jpg
B67 on my '71 Robin Hood.

BigChief 07-10-18 10:22 AM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 20438970)
Spied this "Royal Scot" at the CVBS this past weekend. Sorry I got distracted and did not get a shot of the entire bike.

Interesting. That doesn't appear to be a Raleigh frame. Here's one I've had around for a long time. It is a typical Raleigh made light roadster with a 1964 hub date.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...591926914c.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4182ef03b1.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f2603eb3ac.jpg

Salubrious 07-10-18 10:52 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20438685)
Adding to BigChiefs post these are some of marques and dates taken from Sheldons pages

Humber, BSA, New Hudson 1932
Rudge-Whitworth 1943
Triumph 1954
Three Spires 1954
Sunbeam 1957
Phillips 1960
Hercules 1960
Norman 1960
Sun 1960
Carlton 1960
Dunelt 1960
Moulton 1967

There were many other smaller rebrands not listed here. Generally, the top tier bikes were Raleigh, Humber and Rudge. This doesn't imply that the others were poorly made.

I think the BSA date might be incorrect. Didn't TI pick them up in 1957?


Originally Posted by mtb_addict (Post 20438895)
Would the B67 be even better for the Raleigh Sport?

The 67 is wider, designed for more upright posture.

Yes- that or a B72. You should try them both; each has their strengths. The B-72 is more efficient but the B66 is more comfortable.

desconhecido 07-10-18 11:00 AM


Originally Posted by mtb_addict (Post 20438895)
Would the B67 be even better for the Raleigh Sport?

The 67 is wider, designed for more upright posture.

Posture is probably the key. If you like upright posture and a relatively low and forward saddle with less leg extension, a wider saddle would probably suit you better.

here's a picture of my first Raleigh Sports with a B17. I'm 5'6, so I ride that bike with some forward lean and the B17 works just fine for me. A wider saddle would give me trouble.https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3016bb6f6f.jpg

clubman 07-10-18 11:37 AM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 20439248)
I think the BSA date might be incorrect. Didn't TI pick them up in 1957?

Correct. BSA and New Hudson and Sunbeam. I did a bad cut-n-paste

paulb_in_bkln 07-10-18 04:01 PM

Stretching the thread topic past recognition: Bromptons are English, and "classics," kind of. And it sounds like Jack's is a three-speed. One of his best shows, IMHO.

Cycletouring the Tour de France | The Bike Show - a cycling radio show and podcast from Resonance FM

nlerner 07-10-18 05:35 PM

Relatively cheap Raleigh Twenty in the Boston area for those who are so inclined:

https://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/bi...639358011.html

https://images.craigslist.org/00S0S_...4t_600x450.jpg

BigChief 07-10-18 07:07 PM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 20438987)
The B66 (double rail) or B67 (single rail) is a good choice for the Sports. I have felt comfortable on mine from the first day. Depends what your style is with different bikes. My Salsa adventure bike has a B17 and my old Dilecta road bike has a B17 Narrow.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3a00186642.jpg
B67 on my '71 Robin Hood.

These saddles are really beautiful. Icing on the cake for a classy old British roadster. I prefer the B66/67s for upright riding too. The width in the back doesn't get in my way at all. And... I much prefer the frame mounted saddlebag loops to the B17 style eyelets cut into the leather.

ddeand 07-10-18 11:04 PM

Thanks for the replies and history lesson on my Raleigh “brands” question.

BigChief 07-11-18 07:23 AM

51 Rudge project update. Mudguards are finished. Now on to rebuilding components. Decided to start with the trigger shifter. Here's a typical situation. The case is bent outward toward the front. It needs to come apart to be straightened. It would still work like this, but it would always feel sloppy. It doesn't look like the bend is hard enough to crease the embossed and plated brass face plate. That's one of those things that you can never remove no matter how flat you get it. You would still see distortion in the shiny plating. This one looks OK. The colors in the embossed areas is still intact, but the chrome is covered in a thin oxidation. An overnight soak in Evapo-Rust will remove this. It will look almost new again and the colors won't be disturbed. The spring looks good, but I'll replace it anyway since I have a supply of NOS springs. The threaded ferrule was very crabby coming out, but the threads don't look stripped. I wish I could run a tap through, but it's almost certainly a British Standard thread I don't have a tap for. I'll clean up the threads somehow.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c8b1b48ba4.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f27cb1293f.jpg

Stadjer 07-11-18 09:23 AM

I've got a question on my English 3-speed (part of a otherwise mostly Dutch bike). I put it here and not it in the bicycle mechanics section because I noticed there's quite a bit of specific SA knowledge here. It's got a Sturmey Archer AB hub and I want to change the entire brake including the plate, because the pivot bolt is loose from what is supposed to pivot around it .Does anyone know if the brake section is interchangeable with the AB/C hub? Because that entire brake plate (HSB315) is easy to find. Another question is whether there's any chance asbestos in it, it's little over 40 years old I guess but I didn't find any production year on it, and if so, how should I remove those parts safely?

Buellster 07-11-18 10:34 AM

I'm eyeballing a huffy sportsman branded "made in England" on the downtube. Guy says $40 dollars and its mine. I dont know if I want to go for it.
Is this the internally geared hub model? Was this the time period when these frames where essentially raliegh with a huffy brand?
I like the idea of a three speed project but I'm not sure if it's worth getting into this particular one.
any help or advice would be great! Thanks! https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a442e3a471.jpg

Here it is best and only pic

BigChief 07-11-18 03:01 PM

This bike has a 21" frame which is fine if you're 5'10" or less. If you're taller, hold out for a 23". Just my opinion but...this bike has a twist grip shifter with a 3 speed coaster brake hub. I would hold out for a regular 3 speed hub with a trigger shifter and hand brakes.

Buellster 07-11-18 03:35 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20441935)
This bike has a 21" frame which is fine if you're 5'10" or less. If you're taller, hold out for a 23". Just my opinion but...this bike has a twist grip shifter with a 3 speed coaster brake hub. I would hold out for a regular 3 speed hub with a trigger shifter and hand brakes.

6'2" over here.
That's more of what I'm hoping for. A trigger shifter would be lovely.
Not too many in Portland Oregon but they dont cost an arm and a leg when they do show up (usually).

gster 07-11-18 04:43 PM


Originally Posted by Buellster (Post 20441318)
I'm eyeballing a huffy sportsman branded "made in England" on the downtube. Guy says $40 dollars and its mine. I dont know if I want to go for it.
Is this the internally geared hub model? Was this the time period when these frames where essentially raliegh with a huffy brand?
I like the idea of a three speed project but I'm not sure if it's worth getting into this particular one.
any help or advice would be great! Thanks! https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a442e3a471.jpg

Here it is best and only pic

The forks look a bit wonky on this one.
I'd pass unless you want a future parts bike.

arty dave 07-11-18 04:58 PM


Originally Posted by Stadjer (Post 20441174)
I've got a question on my English 3-speed (part of a otherwise mostly Dutch bike). I put it here and not it in the bicycle mechanics section because I noticed there's quite a bit of specific SA knowledge here. It's got a Sturmey Archer AB hub and I want to change the entire brake including the plate, because the pivot bolt is loose from what is supposed to pivot around it .Does anyone know if the brake section is interchangeable with the AB/C hub? Because that entire brake plate (HSB315) is easy to find. Another question is whether there's any chance asbestos in it, it's little over 40 years old I guess but I didn't find any production year on it, and if so, how should I remove those parts safely?


When you say the pivot bolt do you mean the part that the cable or rod connects to? That's a pivoting arm - Sturmey Archer label it as 'brake lever' which is most unhelpful :) You should be able to tighten it, but if the outside nut is spinning, take the whole brake section off so you can secure the inside side of the bolt with something while you tighten the outside nut. I had to make a spanner from a piece of 2-3mm mild steel because I couldn't get a regular spanner in the gap to hold the inner bolt. Edit - sorry, I'm describing how to tighten the pivot bolt that the 2 brake shoes pivot on. This might be what you mean? They call it a fulcrum pin, and sometimes this incorporates a cable stop. It takes me a while to wrap my head around their part names, and English is the only language I know :)

I have an AB on my Raleigh DL-1 - the AB is rod operated; the 'C' in AB/C stands for cable. You probably know this, just putting it here for anyone that doesn't.

The brake section is a standard size, and the shoes are also interchangeable. So whatever small parts you need to work with your bikes rod or cable, you can take from one and put on the other.

If you're suspecting asbestos, maybe wear some disposable nitrile or latex gloves and a breathing mask. Wipe out the shell with a damp cloth or paper and then dispose of it. Then you could use some brake cleaner on the shell too, there's usually a bit of hub oil that's made its way into the drum. That's the drawback with the older drum hubs, there's not really an adequate seal from the gear side into the brake side of the hub. Best not to lay the bike down on that brake side. Hope that helps

BigChief 07-11-18 06:57 PM


Originally Posted by Buellster (Post 20442027)
6'2" over here.
That's more of what I'm hoping for. A trigger shifter would be lovely.
Not too many in Portland Oregon but they dont cost an arm and a leg when they do show up (usually).

At 6'2" you positively need the taller 23" frame. There would be enough stem and seatpost adjustment to get a good leg extension and balance. It's easy to tell the size even by looking at the pictures in ads. Look at the head tube. Compare this 23" with the 21" bike in the ad.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...548f528a96.jpg
And...at your height, you could easily ride a 24" framed DL-1 like this

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1d12c67bd9.jpg

clubman 07-11-18 07:41 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20442159)
The forks look a bit wonky on this one.
I'd pass unless you want a future parts bike.

Ditto on the fork. It's ~ '65 Raleigh Huffy. Pass. It's OK for parts if you're deep into 3 speeds but as a newbie, start with a better example

gster 07-11-18 08:12 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20442443)
Ditto on the fork. It's ~ '65 Raleigh Huffy. Pass. It's OK for parts if you're deep into 3 speeds but as a newbie, start with a better example

Yes, as a first venture, tall frame, better condition. They're out there, you just have to find one.
You can still find nice examples for $125-$200.
You'll often seen His and Hers bikes for sale. Bought by a couple in the 70's,
ridden a few times and then stored in the basement.
Good luck.

Stadjer 07-12-18 01:59 AM


Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 20442184)
When you say the pivot bolt do you mean the part that the cable or rod connects to? That's a pivoting arm - Sturmey Archer label it as 'brake lever' which is most unhelpful :) You should be able to tighten it, but if the outside nut is spinning, take the whole brake section off so you can secure the inside side of the bolt with something while you tighten the outside nut. I had to make a spanner from a piece of 2-3mm mild steel because I couldn't get a regular spanner in the gap to hold the inner bolt. Edit - sorry, I'm describing how to tighten the pivot bolt that the 2 brake shoes pivot on. This might be what you mean? They call it a fulcrum pin, and sometimes this incorporates a cable stop. It takes me a while to wrap my head around their part names, and English is the only language I know :)

That's the one I mean, it doesn't catch a thread and I suspect with the brake shoes off centre is must have worn unevenly until I loosened the rear brake rod to disable the rear brake, which causes the the rear rod to fall out of the lever on the bigger bumps and drag over the pavement. It needs the spring inside the brake to stay put. It probably went wrong when in last year's winter when there was a lot of snow and ice on the streets, the rods on these don't allow for using the brakes seperately so I unscrewed to front wheel brake rod and tightened the rear one to prevent locking the front wheel and going down. . There's a lot of play in the brake lever nut too, and allthough I like wrenching and will improvise with tools if I need to, I prefer smooth jobs . So that's why I hoped an entire new brake including the brake plate would fit. Originality is not my first concern, it's my daily commuter, it looks good in a casual way.


I have an AB on my Raleigh DL-1 - the AB is rod operated; the 'C' in AB/C stands for cable. You probably know this, just putting it here for anyone that doesn't.

The brake section is a standard size, and the shoes are also interchangeable. So whatever small parts you need to work with your bikes rod or cable, you can take from one and put on the other.
That's great, but I never suspected the C would stand for cable.


If you're suspecting asbestos, maybe wear some disposable nitrile or latex gloves and a breathing mask. Wipe out the shell with a damp cloth or paper and then dispose of it. Then you could use some brake cleaner on the shell too, there's usually a bit of hub oil that's made its way into the drum. That's the drawback with the older drum hubs, there's not really an adequate seal from the gear side into the brake side of the hub. Best not to lay the bike down on that brake side. Hope that helps
If it's on the kick stand it leans over to the drum side too, I guess a little oil leaking in doesn't affect brake performance very much. I think I take the wheel outside and spray the whole brake unit damp as soon as it's exposed, in addition to gloves and a mask.

Thank's a lot, I'll be back with an update when the job is done.

nlerner 07-12-18 09:23 AM

The recent conversations about long-distance riding on a 3-speed inspired me to kit together a build and take on this challenge. The frameset is a mid-1970s Wes Mason (the second M in the MKM/Ron Kitching enterprise), full DB Reynolds 531, so reasonably light weight. To continue the keep the weight down (and compensate for the relatively heavy IGH), I went with a set of CLB brakes, a 122bcd later-model Nervar crankset with 45t ring, American Classic seat post, Brooks Swift with Ti rails, Nitto technomic stem, GB bars, and Brooks leather wrap, Shimano aero levers, Shimano A520 pedals. Wheelset is a rear 40-hole Titan Matrix and front is a Mavic with similar box section and color. Tires are Grand Bois Cypres 700 x 30mm (and a bit of a tight fit between the chain stays). Rear hub is an FM with alloy shell dated Sept 1954 (okay, I cheated and went with a 4-speed!). Total weight on my hanging scale as shown is about 22.5 lbs.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1830/...d667b7e2_c.jpg
Untitled

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/833/4...385468fa_c.jpg
Untitled

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/845/4...0142e98e_c.jpg
Untitled

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1809/...bd51d947_c.jpg
Untitled

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1785/...e502c3c8_c.jpg
Untitled

The frame is a smidge on the small side for me, but that keeps the weight down for this purpose and fit feels pretty good as shown. I'll take it for a 20-30-mile test ride in the next day or so and decide if it'll suffice for a century ride next week.

Salubrious 07-12-18 10:43 AM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 20443359)
The recent conversations about long-distance riding on a 3-speed inspired me to kit together a build and take on this challenge. The frameset is a mid-1970s Wes Mason (the second M in the MKM/Ron Kitching enterprise), full DB Reynolds 531, so reasonably light weight. To continue the keep the weight down (and compensate for the relatively heavy IGH), I went with a set of CLB brakes, a 122bcd later-model Nervar crankset with 45t ring, American Classic seat post, Brooks Swift with Ti rails, Nitto technomic stem, GB bars, and Brooks leather wrap, Shimano aero levers, Shimano A520 pedals. Wheelset is a rear 40-hole Titan Matrix and front is a Mavic with similar box section and color. Tires are Grand Bois Cypres 700 x 30mm (and a bit of a tight fit between the chain stays). Rear hub is an FM with alloy shell dated Sept 1954 (okay, I cheated and went with a 4-speed!). Total weight on my hanging scale as shown is about 22.5 lbs.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1830/...d667b7e2_c.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1809/...bd51d947_c.jpg

The frame is a smidge on the small side for me, but that keeps the weight down for this purpose and fit feels pretty good as shown. I'll take it for a 20-30-mile test ride in the next day or so and decide if it'll suffice for a century ride next week.

Very nice build, but you should be aware that the alloy FMs have a distressing quality of ejecting their guts right through the hub body (no worries with the steel versions, and no worries with the alloy FWs). Alloy FMs should not be used for anything other than something to look at- maybe an ashtray or something.

Ballenxj 07-12-18 01:24 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 20443359)
The recent conversations about long-distance riding on a 3-speed inspired me to kit together a build and take on this challenge. The frameset is a mid-1970s Wes Mason (the second M in the MKM/Ron Kitching enterprise), full DB Reynolds 531, so reasonably light weight. To continue the keep the weight down (and compensate for the relatively heavy IGH), I went with a set of CLB brakes, a 122bcd later-model Nervar crankset with 45t ring, American Classic seat post, Brooks Swift with Ti rails, Nitto technomic stem, GB bars, and Brooks leather wrap, Shimano aero levers, Shimano A520 pedals. Wheelset is a rear 40-hole Titan Matrix and front is a Mavic with similar box section and color. Tires are Grand Bois Cypres 700 x 30mm (and a bit of a tight fit between the chain stays). Rear hub is an FM with alloy shell dated Sept 1954 (okay, I cheated and went with a 4-speed!). Total weight on my hanging scale as shown is about 22.5 lbs..

Nice build, and light too. :thumb:


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