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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

RobHalligan 06-06-21 07:22 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 22081986)
I'm looking for spoke lengths for the following:

36 hole GH6 front hub to 36 hole Westrick ISO 590 (26 x 1 3/8 standard Sports) rim. This would be a 1974 and later stock front wheel set up with the 36 hole front dynohub to the 36 hole Westrick rim.

The 32 holes are much more common and I can get spoke lengths from the charts for those. But I'm looking to build a wheel from a 36 hole Westrick rim and a 36 hole GH6 dynohub. Has anyone done that and what are the spoke lengths you used?

Spoke length chart for most Raleigh rim and hub combos: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AjXH4nd0KT1FsL0X...h1v_Q?e=sxMHjF (link to file in my MS OneDrive...also uploaded)
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6c97344851.jpg

cudak888 06-07-21 10:27 PM

Seeing as we have the ISO/For Trade thread that not all of us 3-speed enthusiasts visit...thought I'd mention that I'm after these bits:
  • A 1950's or early 1960's Raleigh Sports North Road handlebar. The kind with the better chrome than the '70s stuff.
  • A 1950's Raleigh Sports/Superbe front Westrick rim (the kind with the dull chrome raised center), 32 hole, of course.
  • One 1950's Sturmey-Archer serrated hub washer - the serrated washer with knurling. It was used prior to the slotted anti-rotation type.
  • A 1950's 1" Raleigh cable fulcrum clamp; the kind with the dull chrome finish on the inside.
-Kurt

vintagebicycle 06-08-21 07:29 PM

Been listed a month now, but no takers.

https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/...315107837.html

When a clean Tourist in a tall frame goes unsold for a month at $300, it just goes to show how bad the bike scene is around here.
There are dozens of Raleighs within 50 miles of here, all look like good solid bikes, all listed at pretty reasonable prices but most remain listed till the ad expires without finding a new home.

oldspokes 06-09-21 08:05 AM


Originally Posted by vintagebicycle (Post 22093996)
Been listed a month now, but no takers.

https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/...315107837.html

When a clean Tourist in a tall frame goes unsold for a month at $300, it just goes to show how bad the bike scene is around here.
There are dozens of Raleighs within 50 miles of here, all look like good solid bikes, all listed at pretty reasonable prices but most remain listed till the ad expires without finding a new home.

There's been a dozen or more nice looking vintage Raleigh bikes lately in the Philly and South Jersey area but none ever sell unless they're under $25. Its not just old three speeds, CL and FB in those areas are full of mostly department store bikes and when something decent shows up it gets ignored. I listed a couple of high end road bikes when I lived there a few years ago and they never sold, not so much as a single email. I had a box of brand new 700C rims from the 60's I was trying to sell for $20 each, they never sold on CL, yet they went for hundreds on eBay to someone not 10 miles outside of Philly. He paid 15 times what I had them listed for on CL and still drove to pick them up. The guy said he had been watching them on CL for a year but said he doesn't like to deal with people directly, so when they went up on eBay he bid them up to the moon. He then came and paid cash and picked them up anyhow.
He could have had the whole box for what he paid on ebay for one pair. Nearly every pair I listed went to local buyers who picked them up, yet they ignored the CL ad.
There's a seller in SJ right now with a bunch of new road wheelsets and a couple of super clean Raleigh three speeds listed in the $200-$300 range, but they've been listed for almost a year. I suppose if he dropped the price to $25 or so they may sell but as long as people can buy a Walmart bike for $89.99 nothing will ever sell for any more there.
When i lived in SJ, the area was the worst place I'd ever been when it came to bike riding, there were no bike lanes, no shoulders, no bike parking locations, and a general disdain for bike riders by both drivers and the local PD.
I was threatened with a ticket twice there because my riding a bike at 6am was 'disturbing' someone's dogs and they had gotten multiple complaints. Yet me driving my F350 diesel truck to work instead was no problem.
They put in several bike lanes in one area that started and ended at 'No Bicycle' marked roads. Every one was along four lane highways. They only did it to get state funding or grant money. There were a few 'bike paths' that cut through wooded sections in a few neighboring towns, but you would likely need to carry a side arm to travel there. The trails were long narrow paved paths through dark woods with no lighting at all, and no patrols. They became hang outs and lately tent cities for homeless.
20 years prior Philly was a good area for vintage bikes and riding in general but from what I'm seeing for sale there and what I saw on a few trips to that area a few months ago things have really changed for the worst. I had planned to stop a few older bike shops there but all but two were gone that I used to frequent back in the late 90's or so.
Bikes were also a scarce sight on the streets.

I read all over the place that people can't find good bikes since the pandemic, yet there are hundreds listed all over the place that don't sell. What they're not telling you is that they can't find good vintage bikes for free or dirt cheap.
Even when I lived down there most wouldn't drive more than a couple miles to buy anything, bikes or other items. I listed regular on CL back then and 99 out of a 100 sales came from folks who drove a long distance. Rarely did anything sell locally. They either wanted it for free or close to it, or they wouldn't drive more than a mile or two to get something. I had a guy tell me once who was looking at a minty clean Schwinn Paramount I had listed, he emailed me 20 or more times, then told me he didn't realize I was so 'far' away. He was 10 miles away in the next town. I finally gave up and listed it on fleabay and it went to the west coast for double what i was asking there.
As a buyer there, what I found was that the higher the price, the worse the bike. Some of the best bikes I bought there were $50 or less. Including a pair of minty Legnanos, two Raleigh Tourists, and a dozen or more Nishiki International, and Competition models, and four minty clean Raleigh Internationals. Plus 30 or more clean older Sports models. Most were flea market or yardsale finds.
I had a bunch of neighbors who realized I worked on bikes, most all would ask if I'd 'fix up' their old bikes but none wanted to pay for it. The minute you mentioned $50 or more in parts or tires, it was over, the bike went to the curb.
The answer was always that "I can buy a whole new bike for that much at Walmart" even those riding decent bikes were like that. Bikes in general were looked at as kids toys not adult transportation or a way to get some exercise.
The guy who lived across the street from me had a pair of boys who went off to college while I was there, both had near new Cannondale road bikes, one still had its $900 price tag on the seat rail. The day they left both bikes went to the curb (Into my garage soon after). Another neighbor trashed a then year old Fuji Finest when their son left for school. The bad part was he put the thing out on the curb on Thursday evening before leaving for their winter home, I didn't get home till Sunday and it was still there. That alone says something about the area.

What even amazes me more is that most will pay more for a set of wheels or a hub rather than buy a whole bike for half as much.
I've watched a few S5 hubs go for crazy money, I even had a few offers on a few I've got here yet I see whole bikes for sale for $200 -$300.
The sum of the value of the wheels, maybe a Brooks saddle, and the shifters on an early Sprite far exceed what most are selling the whole bikes for.
I had a guy ask me if I had a complete hub, I said I had 9 of them. He offered me $300 plus shipping. I told him there's a bike 10 miles from him with a hub and shifters and the seller is asking only $250. He told me he didn't want to go through 'all that'. I was down there a few months after that and I emailed the guy with the Sprite and asked what he'd sell it for if I came and got it the next day. He sold it to me for $100 cash.
The bike was so clean I couldn't bear to part it out. The thing even had the original tires on it. He had it listed for $250 and had started out at $400 a year before that.
The bottom line was he had no idea what it was worth, he just wanted it gone and wanted to get the most he could for it. I suppose I was the only one who put cash in his hand so I got the bike.

SirMike1983 06-10-21 08:49 AM

Thanks. Is that chart for the 36 hole wheel or the 32? It looks like 1970s era printing. I'll pull out my calipers and use a Spoke Calc and compare to the chart. I had a notebook with spoke lengths written down at one point, but lost it when I moved back to New England.


Originally Posted by RobHalligan (Post 22091031)
Spoke length chart for most Raleigh rim and hub combos: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AjXH4nd0KT1FsL0X...h1v_Q?e=sxMHjF (link to file in my MS OneDrive...also uploaded)
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6c97344851.jpg


SirMike1983 06-10-21 09:03 AM

Part of my thinking is that the decline of "old school" manufacturing jobs coupled with a certain disposable goods mindset is that the cheap "Wal Mart bike" sets a standard for many people. I think maybe once (or twice?) I was asked about quality and condition of bearing surfaces, had it gotten an oil/re-grease, etc. (basically the questions someone with a little manufacturing and maintenance knowledge would ask). I'm not sure many people buying bikes today have much background in what it takes to maintain a bike, or to spot cheap manufacturing quality/wear in a vital component. The cheap big box bike might look nice, but I doubt it has properly greased, hardened, and polished bearing surfaces, for example (and this is assuming it's even assembled correctly). If you have an old Raleigh or Schwinn 3-speed (or something of similar quality at least), usually the bearing surfaces are pretty durable, they're properly polished and hardened, and there are ways to oil/re-grease to keep them maintained. Sometimes you have to replace parts, but a quality replacement will set you right again. Many people just don't seem to have a sort of "hands on" experience or background that cause them to ask about the vitals, or see how the vitals in a little better bike would make a difference.


Originally Posted by oldspokes (Post 22094510)
There's been a dozen or more nice looking vintage Raleigh bikes lately in the Philly and South Jersey area but none ever sell unless they're under $25. Its not just old three speeds, CL and FB in those areas are full of mostly department store bikes and when something decent shows up it gets ignored. I listed a couple of high end road bikes when I lived there a few years ago and they never sold, not so much as a single email. I had a box of brand new 700C rims from the 60's I was trying to sell for $20 each, they never sold on CL, yet they went for hundreds on eBay to someone not 10 miles outside of Philly. He paid 15 times what I had them listed for on CL and still drove to pick them up. The guy said he had been watching them on CL for a year but said he doesn't like to deal with people directly, so when they went up on eBay he bid them up to the moon. He then came and paid cash and picked them up anyhow.
He could have had the whole box for what he paid on ebay for one pair. Nearly every pair I listed went to local buyers who picked them up, yet they ignored the CL ad.
There's a seller in SJ right now with a bunch of new road wheelsets and a couple of super clean Raleigh three speeds listed in the $200-$300 range, but they've been listed for almost a year. I suppose if he dropped the price to $25 or so they may sell but as long as people can buy a Walmart bike for $89.99 nothing will ever sell for any more there.
When i lived in SJ, the area was the worst place I'd ever been when it came to bike riding, there were no bike lanes, no shoulders, no bike parking locations, and a general disdain for bike riders by both drivers and the local PD.
I was threatened with a ticket twice there because my riding a bike at 6am was 'disturbing' someone's dogs and they had gotten multiple complaints. Yet me driving my F350 diesel truck to work instead was no problem.
They put in several bike lanes in one area that started and ended at 'No Bicycle' marked roads. Every one was along four lane highways. They only did it to get state funding or grant money. There were a few 'bike paths' that cut through wooded sections in a few neighboring towns, but you would likely need to carry a side arm to travel there. The trails were long narrow paved paths through dark woods with no lighting at all, and no patrols. They became hang outs and lately tent cities for homeless.
20 years prior Philly was a good area for vintage bikes and riding in general but from what I'm seeing for sale there and what I saw on a few trips to that area a few months ago things have really changed for the worst. I had planned to stop a few older bike shops there but all but two were gone that I used to frequent back in the late 90's or so.
Bikes were also a scarce sight on the streets.

I read all over the place that people can't find good bikes since the pandemic, yet there are hundreds listed all over the place that don't sell. What they're not telling you is that they can't find good vintage bikes for free or dirt cheap.
Even when I lived down there most wouldn't drive more than a couple miles to buy anything, bikes or other items. I listed regular on CL back then and 99 out of a 100 sales came from folks who drove a long distance. Rarely did anything sell locally. They either wanted it for free or close to it, or they wouldn't drive more than a mile or two to get something. I had a guy tell me once who was looking at a minty clean Schwinn Paramount I had listed, he emailed me 20 or more times, then told me he didn't realize I was so 'far' away. He was 10 miles away in the next town. I finally gave up and listed it on fleabay and it went to the west coast for double what i was asking there.
As a buyer there, what I found was that the higher the price, the worse the bike. Some of the best bikes I bought there were $50 or less. Including a pair of minty Legnanos, two Raleigh Tourists, and a dozen or more Nishiki International, and Competition models, and four minty clean Raleigh Internationals. Plus 30 or more clean older Sports models. Most were flea market or yardsale finds.
I had a bunch of neighbors who realized I worked on bikes, most all would ask if I'd 'fix up' their old bikes but none wanted to pay for it. The minute you mentioned $50 or more in parts or tires, it was over, the bike went to the curb.
The answer was always that "I can buy a whole new bike for that much at Walmart" even those riding decent bikes were like that. Bikes in general were looked at as kids toys not adult transportation or a way to get some exercise.
The guy who lived across the street from me had a pair of boys who went off to college while I was there, both had near new Cannondale road bikes, one still had its $900 price tag on the seat rail. The day they left both bikes went to the curb (Into my garage soon after). Another neighbor trashed a then year old Fuji Finest when their son left for school. The bad part was he put the thing out on the curb on Thursday evening before leaving for their winter home, I didn't get home till Sunday and it was still there. That alone says something about the area.

What even amazes me more is that most will pay more for a set of wheels or a hub rather than buy a whole bike for half as much.
I've watched a few S5 hubs go for crazy money, I even had a few offers on a few I've got here yet I see whole bikes for sale for $200 -$300.
The sum of the value of the wheels, maybe a Brooks saddle, and the shifters on an early Sprite far exceed what most are selling the whole bikes for.
I had a guy ask me if I had a complete hub, I said I had 9 of them. He offered me $300 plus shipping. I told him there's a bike 10 miles from him with a hub and shifters and the seller is asking only $250. He told me he didn't want to go through 'all that'. I was down there a few months after that and I emailed the guy with the Sprite and asked what he'd sell it for if I came and got it the next day. He sold it to me for $100 cash.
The bike was so clean I couldn't bear to part it out. The thing even had the original tires on it. He had it listed for $250 and had started out at $400 a year before that.
The bottom line was he had no idea what it was worth, he just wanted it gone and wanted to get the most he could for it. I suppose I was the only one who put cash in his hand so I got the bike.


clubman 06-10-21 10:17 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 22096107)
Thanks. Is that chart for the 36 hole wheel or the 32? It looks like 1970s era printing. I'll pull out my calipers and use a Spoke Calc and compare to the chart. I had a notebook with spoke lengths written down at one point, but lost it when I moved back to New England.

I believe I was the original poster of that scan and it was from a 1965 distributors catalogue. In that case, it's 32/40 but I'll look for it again to confirm.

Ronbo Fomby 06-10-21 01:42 PM

Sunday, June 13 the annual Bike Show and Swap Meet in Wethersfield Ct. takes place.
There is a Classic bike ride around Historic Wethersfield after the show.
There will be some 3 speed Raleighs on view and in the ride.
Any interest?

bluesteak 06-10-21 07:38 PM

Wethersfield
 
Too, late for this year.

Is it an annual event??

clubman 06-11-21 05:55 AM

Spoke lengths
 
@SirMike1983. I found my scan but can't source the original catalog. I'm pretty darn sure it's pre 1970. The sizes on that list of rims looks 50's to 60's, it even contains the Dunlop High Pressure 630's as well as trade bikes and EA1's. Raleigh Pattern was the name given by Dunlop to Raleigh rims and Dunlops was out of the bike rim game by 1970 when Sturmey Archer stepped up.

gster 06-11-21 02:17 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 22084179)
A friend shared this video earlier today. Seems to be a single-speed rod-brake Raleigh, but this subforum is likely the best fit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k3SY_S7O_M


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 22097394)
@SirMike1983. I found my scan but can't source the original catalog. I'm pretty darn sure it's pre 1970. The sizes on that list of rims looks 50's to 60's, it even contains the Dunlop High Pressure 630's as well as trade bikes and EA1's. Raleigh Pattern was the name given by Dunlop to Raleigh rims and Dunlops was out of the bike rim game by 1970 when Sturmey Archer stepped up.

The Dunlop factory here in the east end of Toronto (Queen and Carlaw) came down in the early 1970's. Gas leaking into the local sewer system was causing manhole covers to explode on nearby residential streets.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...141aecc5ee.jpg

thumpism 06-12-21 08:41 PM

Lenton for $200!

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...82027016112324

https://scontent.fric1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...bb&oe=60CA30BF

Grishnak 06-13-21 02:41 AM

https://www.tatler.com/article/princ...icycle-auction

cudak888 06-13-21 08:24 AM


Originally Posted by Grishnak (Post 22099790)

Sprite-pattern fenders and the el-generico fork crown.

Anyone know whether the Traveller was indeed, 26", or if it was based on the '77 Sprite 3-speed?

-Kurt

smurfy 06-13-21 09:19 AM

Here's my current project. '57 (I was told) Raleigh Sports. It was a "barn find" (or maybe a garage or storage shed) but it has been inside a structure most of it's life. It did have a Dynohub which I still have. After a couple of washings with Spin Doctor Bike Wash (dish soap and an old toothbrush on the really caked-up grease areas) final wash was with acetone and preserved with linseed oil. I still gotta get the stem out since the steering is pretty stiff. Never Dull on the chrome parts.

Anyway my plan is a resto-mod with 700c rims and modern S-A hubs w/drum brakes.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0a595228bc.jpg

thumpism 06-13-21 07:02 PM

I'd love to have this one.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...94792254795192

https://scontent.fric1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...3d&oe=60CC6BC6

cudak888 06-13-21 07:31 PM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 22100694)

Interesting. US spec Lemon Yellow as per the 1976 catalog, but with non-adjuster brake levers and 1977-spec reflectors, saddle, and no white tail.

Very interesting.

-Kurt

SirMike1983 06-13-21 09:04 PM

I love these longest days of the year here in western New England. I had a nice, long ride on my Schwinn 3-speed Friday evening after work.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jdnJaYf0y...611_181831.jpg

gster 06-14-21 05:17 PM


Originally Posted by smurfy (Post 22100038)
Here's my current project. '57 (I was told) Raleigh Sports. It was a "barn find" (or maybe a garage or storage shed) but it has been inside a structure most of it's life. It did have a Dynohub which I still have. After a couple of washings with Spin Doctor Bike Wash (dish soap and an old toothbrush on the really caked-up grease areas) final wash was with acetone and preserved with linseed oil. I still gotta get the stem out since the steering is pretty stiff. Never Dull on the chrome parts.

Anyway my plan is a resto-mod with 700c rims and modern S-A hubs w/drum brakes.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0a595228bc.jpg

There's something timeless about a simple black English frame.
Keep posting your progress.

thumpism 06-14-21 06:14 PM

This one's nice.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...25089592174515

https://scontent.fric1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...29&oe=60CBF8D2

dbhouston 06-14-21 10:32 PM


Originally Posted by smurfy (Post 22100038)
After a couple of washings with Spin Doctor Bike Wash (dish soap and an old toothbrush on the really caked-up grease areas) final wash was with acetone and preserved with linseed oil. I still gotta get the stem out since the steering is pretty stiff. Never Dull on the chrome parts.

LInseed oil works magic on old English black fraimes, doesn't it? Maybe other colors, too, but black for sure. That's a beautiful bike and a fun project. I second the request for updates, with lots of pictures!

cudak888 06-15-21 03:13 PM

Saw this photo on FB, taken in 2014, in Italy.

It's a 1973+ Sports by chaincase and decals, but it's a loop-frame with rod brakes - what would have been called a Dawn back in the 1950's, and even then, not as a loop frame. Definitely not a model you'll see in the US catalogs.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...62a599c50f.jpg


-Kurt

hihik 06-16-21 06:35 PM

What?! Was I supposed to just leave it on the curb?? Bike number 3 in as many months :(


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...260e55539.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...188ecfed3.jpeg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...923f4d4f5.jpeg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b94c5d7ad.jpeg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...40b381901.jpeg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b9ab322eb.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...290e77706.jpeg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e040e5681.jpeg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bcef47a11.jpeg

gster 06-16-21 07:58 PM

Nice score!

cudak888 06-16-21 11:18 PM

That Phillips should clean right up - and some grips and a proper Raleigh-pattern chainguard ought to do a great deal to undo it's trash-fresh look.

FYI, there's a fellow on the Raleigh Roadster Facebook club selling off quite a few 1950's/60s machines - NYC/NJ area.

-Kurt


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