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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

BigChief 06-12-17 08:34 AM


Originally Posted by Renngrrl (Post 19647821)
I am thinking of fiddling with the gearing. Yesterdays ride was flat but the head winds we rode into made the day into an endurance ride. My fault - I decided to go storm chasing into an area known for wind problems. I brought a rain slick with me and my DH chuckled. He was wishing he had one by mile 18.

I did get to ride the gravel along the levees and she was smooth as silk. Those fat delta cruisers and the weight of the bike made for a much smoother ride then the Rugby Sport would have given. She's just a joy to ride. :love:

The reason I'm so pleased with the DL-1 is that I have to leave my bikes at friends places in a coastal village to ride. The roadster opens up all the gravel roads to me right here at the farm. I can just hop on a bike and go for a 20 minute ride. Means a lot to me. Now, I haven't ridden a high end gravel grinder, but the old roadster is just as easy to ride on unpaved roads as the usual, run of the mill utility bikes with suspensions. The weight difference really doesn't amount to anything to me. The weight might help, but I suspect it's more the big wheels and frame geometry. Both of my roadsters came with a 16T cog on the AW hub. Even for flat roads it was way to tall for me. Now that I have a 22T cog and the brakes working properly, the DL-1 is my main go to for short rides. At least while I'm up north. Too hot for me today. Might just go out at midnight on the scorcher again. That was serious fun.

carrieberry71 06-12-17 11:58 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I have this wonderful blue 3 speed Philips bike and I was trying to find out more about it. I can take more pictures of it tonight if it would help.

BigChief 06-12-17 02:43 PM

Ah, a very pretty classic 3 speed step through. Nice color. From this picture I can see it's made by Raleigh in Nottingham sometime after Raleigh acquired the Phillips company in 1960. You can get a more accurate date by looking at the month/year stamped on the 3 speed hub.
It's missing it's original chainguard but a chrome one like this one would be the best replacement short of an original in the same color.

sunvalleylaw 06-12-17 09:25 PM

1 Attachment(s)
@thumpism suggested I post this pic here. I, my brothers, and some of my cousins on rentals at Sun River, in Oregon. Fun times!

I did not, however, think the bikes were as cool as my beloved Sting-Ray I still had. ;)

pfaustus 06-15-17 01:51 PM

Whitworth wrench substitutes stolen from a landrover website:
Whitworth SAE or Metric
1/8 = 11/32
3/16 = 7/16
1/4 = 17/32
5/16 = 19/32
3/8 = 18mm
7/16 = 21mm
1/2 = None
9/16 = 1"
5/8 = None
Unless you inherited old SAE wrenches from the 60s or before, you will probably have to hunt the flea markets for the x/32 sizes. But they are a lot more common than whitworth wrenches at my local fleas.

dweenk 06-15-17 02:02 PM

I bought a set of Whitworths from Big Red Toolbox in England a couple of years ago. The price was good, the shipping was cheap, but US Customs held them up for over a month.

I have a few bikes that require them, and a friend with limited resources that owns two older British motorcycles. It seemed like the thing to do, and I would do it again.

arty dave 06-18-17 04:40 PM

I've been slowly cleaning bits of my DL-1. I knew there was an inscription on the bell but couldn't really make out more than the largest word 'SUPER'. After polishing -
'SUPER friends of the road' with some kind of forearm & hand image right in the centre.
I mentioned in a previous post that in my parts stash I have a Miller battery headlamp with a built-in horn and wired handlebar button that I want to put on the DL-1. I put a battery into it (1 x D size) but no horn or light - will the horn not work if a bulb is blown? I had a good look at the insides and it is extremely clean and appears to have solid connections everywhere. It's stamped '1958' on the inside. I failed electronics at high school :( so I guess I'll start with some new bulbs and hope that makes it all work.

When my Dad died I went through all his tools - he had a good collection of Whitworth as he restored (some English) military vehicles as a hobby after retiring from the army. His last vehicle was a replica of a light patrol model T that would have been used in WW1 Palestine. I had no use for Whitworth so we sold them, but I did keep a couple that had cool maker stamps, 'King Dick' was one.

Cute Boy Horse 06-18-17 05:13 PM

I suggest going through every connection with a multi-meter and checking for continuity.

erileykc 06-18-17 06:59 PM

No idea what operating principle your electrically operated horn uses but making sound in general involves using relatively thin and light mechanisms ( truck air horns excepted ) so wear and tear is likely more an enemy of your horn than of the lamp. A few pictures of the innards could be instructive.



Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 19661389)
... I have a Miller battery headlamp with a built-in horn and wired handlebar button that I want to put on the DL-1. I put a battery into it (1 x D size) but no horn or light - will the horn not work if a bulb is blown? I had a good look at the insides and it is extremely clean and appears to have solid connections everywhere. It's stamped '1948' on the inside. I failed electronics at high school :( so I guess I'll start with some new bulbs and hope that makes it all work.


BigChief 06-19-17 04:48 AM

Is the unit mounted on the bike? A lot of these electrical devises depend on a connection to a frame to complete the circuit. Sometimes, even then, the ground connection can be iffy. I remember I used to have to run separate ground wires to make things like blinkers to work reliably on my old English motorcycles.

thumpism 06-20-17 05:32 AM

Not mine, and I have three Sportses already so don't need this one that looks like a rare ladies' 23" frame.

https://richmond.craigslist.org/bik/6184420844.html

1974 Vintage Raleigh Sports 3 Speed Bicycle - $100 (The Fan)

https://images.craigslist.org/00f0f_...G_1200x900.jpg

condition: excellent
make / manufacturer: Raleigh
model name / number: Sports

Here we have a beautiful and rare vintage Raleigh Sports in "coffee brown." The bike will need a good tune up...but for those of you who admire vintage 3-speeds, you know that once you get it up and running, it will give you another 40 years of solid riding. All original parts except the saddle.

Please let me know if you have any questions. I'm willing to accept reasonable offers and can deliver within the city of Richmond. Thanks!

arty dave 06-21-17 10:35 PM

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4240/3...eed5c7fd_b.jpgMiller internals 4 by arty dave armour, on Flickr


Here are the internals. There is a metal rod inside of the horn button that certainly looks like it makes metal on metal contact with handlebars when the button is pressed. Should I move these headlamp images to a new thread?


https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4282/3...930c6583_b.jpgMiller internals 2 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

arty dave 06-21-17 10:36 PM

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4253/3...3c315a73_b.jpgMiller under showing horn & button by arty dave armour, on Flickr

BigChief 06-22-17 05:57 AM

Oh, the battery is right inside the headlight. Just a thought. Again, referring to my experience with old English motorcycles. These were always wired positive to ground. If I were putting a battery in this, being an American, I would assume that terminal with the wire going to the horn button would be the positive side of the battery. Since it's English, perhaps that would be the negative terminal?

Velocivixen 06-22-17 08:14 AM

Just thought I would update anyone who's interested, especially @noglider, since you asked. I LOVE my Raleigh Twenty new wheels with drum brake in front & 2-speed kickback rear. Of course the brakes are still "bedding in" and will only improve with some more riding time.

I love that there is only one single cable to the drum brake. I recommend the Sturmey Archer brake levers - they come as a pair and for $17, that's a steal. They're sort of a low sheen silver (paint?) with a faux leather textured length along the grip side of the lever. They have a confidence inspiring feel to them - sort of firm and luxurious (like driving my '64 Lincoln Continental!).

I did a bit of Rivendell-esque twine & shellac job on 3 small spots where the rear rack vibrates (the rack frame & the sprung "trap"). Subtle as well as effective.

The Knog "Oi" copper bell is elegantly designed, but not for high noise situations. Pleasing tone, but quiet, so not recommended for noisy riding situations.

I was able to get the bent crank arm about 98% corrected, so as I pedal I only very slightly feel a difference in that pedal. I guess I could work on it a bit more, but for now I'm good.

noglider 06-22-17 09:33 AM

Thanks for the updated, @Velocivixen. I bet you won't notice the bent crank after a while.

BigChief 06-22-17 07:38 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 19669934)
Just thought I would update anyone who's interested, especially @noglider, since you asked. I LOVE my Raleigh Twenty new wheels with drum brake in front & 2-speed kickback rear. Of course the brakes are still "bedding in" and will only improve with some more riding time.

I love that there is only one single cable to the drum brake. I recommend the Sturmey Archer brake levers - they come as a pair and for $17, that's a steal. They're sort of a low sheen silver (paint?) with a faux leather textured length along the grip side of the lever. They have a confidence inspiring feel to them - sort of firm and luxurious (like driving my '64 Lincoln Continental!).

I did a bit of Rivendell-esque twine & shellac job on 3 small spots where the rear rack vibrates (the rack frame & the sprung "trap"). Subtle as well as effective.

The Knog "Oi" copper bell is elegantly designed, but not for high noise situations. Pleasing tone, but quiet, so not recommended for noisy riding situations.

I was able to get the bent crank arm about 98% corrected, so as I pedal I only very slightly feel a difference in that pedal. I guess I could work on it a bit more, but for now I'm good.

That's great. I didn't even realize there were still kick back hubs being made. Sounds like you're happy with the overall gearing, but is it possible to swap cogs like a 3 speed?

Velocivixen 06-22-17 08:30 PM

@BigChief - oh yes - the drive side setup is just like the Sturmey Archer 3 speed. The circlip, cog, any spacers, dust cover, etc. The axle, of course is solid, and there are anti-rotation washers on each side. I chose a 2-speed WITH a coaster brake, so it has the brake arm clamped to the NDS chain stay.
If I'm riding at a good clip and go over a good sized bump the gear will shift, but only because I'm coasting (I coast a lot) and the bump causes my feet to shift slightly. It only takes a "flick" - not at all a "kick" to change gears.

I know the front drum brake is likely still bedding in, but I notice a sort of "thunk, thunk,thunk" sensation as I'm braking. As though there may be brake dust on part of the drum, then a clean spot - so like friction/smooth as regular intervals. Don't hear it; just feel it. I'll give it more break in time and if it still does that I will disassemble and wipe out any dust.

BigChief 06-24-17 04:40 PM

Raining this morning so I got back to work on my 73 roadster. The 72 is finished except I'm still hunting for fenders. Before I tear the whole bike down, I figured I'd get the brakes sorted. The work I did on the 72 produced stellar results and I was hoping to get the 73 stopping just as well. I already had 4 Fibrax pads in my parts box so I didn't spring for a set of Kool Stop salmon inserts. Except for the graphics, these bikes are identical. I carefully set up the brakes just like I did on the 72, but the results were underwhelming to say the least. The braking power difference between the two bikes is enormous. It has to be the pads. That's the only difference. I've noticed this on my Sports bikes as well. Those Salmon Kool Stops are just amazing. The rod brakes on these old roadsters are nominal at best, but these salmon pads actually bring the braking power up to a reasonable level.

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/f...g?t=1498252298

SirMike1983 06-24-17 04:54 PM

That complete roadster is in nice condition. They're long and tall in the frame, which gives them some nice ride characteristics.

I've lately been riding Schwinn 3-speeds a lot, like this 1941 New World 3-speed. They're English-inspired, but have some neat American features.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zO_ab1sqW...621_185217.jpg

BigChief 06-24-17 06:18 PM

I love that maroon color. Looks great with the brown saddle and white walls. It reminds me that I do still have another project I could get to. I still haven't done a thing to that old Westfield Elgin. Might do that after I get the roadster finished. I get bored without a project going. I wonder what I'll find inside this hub? Could be interesting. The only coaster I've had apart was the usual Bendix.

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/f...n/elgin011.jpg

Velocivixen 06-24-17 07:16 PM

@Big Chief - I'm jealous. I'd love to take that apart. I hope you take some close up photos. I'll be waiting. ;)

SirMike1983 06-24-17 08:26 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19675093)
I love that maroon color. Looks great with the brown saddle and white walls. It reminds me that I do still have another project I could get to. I still haven't done a thing to that old Westfield Elgin. Might do that after I get the roadster finished. I get bored without a project going. I wonder what I'll find inside this hub? Could be interesting. The only coaster I've had apart was the usual Bendix.

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/f...n/elgin011.jpg

Really cool. I think Musselman made those. The inside may be a "sleeve" type brake. They made them with and without the fins over the years. Supposedly the fins aided in cooling by providing more surface area in the hub shell. I have no idea if that idea works.

http://www.timesofplenty.com/2015/img037.jpg

Some of the first truly modern "three-speed"-style bikes for adults made in the US were actually single speed coasters. I have a Westfield from well before WWII began for the US, with a New Departure Model D. It even has an add-on Philco English front brake.

In the late 1930s, several American companies copied the English Sports-style bikes to try to revive adult cycling in the US. This 1940 Westfield is part of the early effort in the US. This effort came to fruition about 1937-38 and was in full force by 1942. Many of these English-style American-made bikes became civilian transportation during the WWII gas rationing in the US. Over the past few years I've become somewhat passionate about trying to save these somewhat-forgotten (at least compared to the truly English-made three-speed) bikes.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XbLb1TxH2...220_155139.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-j5M6m-hma...220_155214.jpg

BigChief 06-24-17 08:34 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 19675173)
@Big Chief - I'm jealous. I'd love to take that apart. I hope you take some close up photos. I'll be waiting. ;)

Will do. I'm going to photograph anyway so I have a reference to put it back together. I'll start something like a vintage American lightweights thread. I bought this at a flee market in the late 70s. I guess it's about time I got around to fixing it :rolleyes:

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/f...n/Elgin001.jpg

DQRider 06-24-17 08:42 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 19675173)
@Big Chief - I'm jealous. I'd love to take that apart. I hope you take some close up photos. I'll be waiting. ;)

Absolutely, let's see some guts! :crash: ;)

I've got a SRAM Automatix laying around waiting for a suitable project to appear. No, it's not English, and it's not a 3-speed, but it still seems like something this group would be interested in.

Like this, for instance:

http://i.imgur.com/5bgZ6ey.png
Here's my English-ish light roadster on our ride this morning.

You all haven't seen this bike since the Lake Pepin 3-Speed Tour. I've been slowly improving it ever since. Now second gear feels just as solid as all the others. I just have to keep the adjustment within much tighter tolerances than with the AW. It helps that the cable is fully stretched now.

We visited
Seņor Charles at the Taco House before they were open this morning:

http://i.imgur.com/J9EWfVc.png

Does this make it a "Track Bike"?

http://i.imgur.com/fWv9o39.png

... and down the river we went, without a paddle:

http://i.imgur.com/yS6pNgp.png

It was a strange day, weather-wise. A cold front came through and reduced our temperature to about 55°F for awhile. I was in long-sleeves most of the day. This is really weird, when the Southwest is stuck in a triple-digit temperature nightmare. You folks have my sympathy...




BigChief 06-24-17 08:55 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 19675296)
Really cool. I think Musselman made those. The inside may be a "sleeve" type brake. They made them with and without the fins over the years. Supposedly the fins aided in cooling by providing more surface area in the hub shell. I have no idea if that idea works.

http://www.timesofplenty.com/2015/img037.jpg

Some of the first truly modern "three-speed"-style bikes for adults made in the US were actually single speed coasters. I have a Westfield from well before WWII began for the US, with a New Departure Model D. It even has an add-on Philco English front brake.

In the late 1930s, several American companies copied the English Sports-style bikes to try to revive adult cycling in the US. This 1940 Westfield is part of the early effort in the US. This effort came to fruition about 1937-38 and was in full force by 1942. Many of these English-style American-made bikes became civilian transportation during the WWII gas rationing in the US. Over the past few years I've become somewhat passionate about trying to save these somewhat-forgotten (at least compared to the truly English-made three-speed) bikes.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XbLb1TxH2...220_155139.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-j5M6m-hma...220_155214.jpg

Looks like mine is a down market version of this bike. I guess some effort was made to market these through Sears. I wish it had a 3 speed hub though. My old legs need a granny to get up hills these days.

BigChief 06-25-17 04:45 AM

My advise would be to go with a lugged frame English 3 speed and if you're 5' 10" or taller, look for one with the taller, 23" frame.

Velocivixen 06-25-17 06:51 AM

@DQRider - I'm not so familiar with the details of your bike, although I've read your posts about the Lake Pepin ride. It says "Raysport" on your bike and chain guard. I've never seen that bike before. Care to share a bit about the make? Original equipment?

On a different note, I'm going to see a bike today. Won't go into detail.....it may or may not be a 3-speed....keep you guessing.

DQRider 06-25-17 11:26 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 19675798)
@DQRider - I'm not so familiar with the details of your bike, although I've read your posts about the Lake Pepin ride. It says "Raysport" on your bike and chain guard. I've never seen that bike before. Care to share a bit about the make? Original equipment?

Only if you twist my arm. ;) I know I've told this story on the BF before (more than once...), but it's a good story worth telling again. This will be a bit long...

In 2016 I rode my `74 Raleigh DL1 on the Lake Pepin 3-speed tour. I packed too much stuff, but was too proud to take advantage of the support van. So my rod-braked roadster weighed about 70-some pounds when we set off. I made it the whole 90 miles, but the Bay City Hill nearly killed me.

So for 2017 I decided to build my own "Ultimate Secret Wepin for Pepin". Essential qualities would be a lightweight Reynolds 531 frame, a Sturmey-Archer internal gear hub (5-speeds, but who's counting?), Brooks saddle, Northroads style handlebar, fenders, and chainguard - all alloy components, not steel.

I found a 531 mystery frame on CL and traded a nice `64 Dunelt step-through that my daughter had rejected as too "rickety". I dedicated a whole thread on the C&V forum to solving this mystery, but the answer came from a couple of local experts, members of the "Gentlemen Cyclists" group who put on the Lake Pepin event. Their names escape me at the moment, but they ID'ed my frame as a Raysport Turismo.

The only image I could find of this bike on the web is in somebody's collection, but I don't think I'm allowed to post the image here. You can find it with a Google search - the original Turismo bike was a lightweight, Italian-style drop-bar, sport-touring rig. The frameset came to me looking like this:

http://i.imgur.com/hkcGsuN.png

It has Campagnolo forged dropouts and Cinelli-style lugs, so you wouldn't think it would qualify as English in any way. However, while discussing it with my fellow Gentlemen Cyclists, it was revealed that the Raysport frames were built by a fellow named Ian Alsop, for the A1 Cycle Shop in Saint Louis, Missouri back in the early-mid 1970s.

Turns out Mr. Alsop was a member of the 1969 British Olympic Cycling Team in Mexico City, who fell in love with the place and opened a bike shop there after the Games. He was commissioned by the owner of A1 Cycles, one Raymond Florman, to build bespoke high-end bikes for their shop, branded with the name "Raysport".

The Gentlemen pointed out to me these elements of Englishness: Reynolds 531 tubing, built by a prominent British Olympic Cyclist, British hub, saddle, and handlebar - all of which qualify it for the Lake Pepin Tour. Hence the label "English-ish Light Roadster".

The build was undertaken over the long Minnesota winter, and it was a real education in bicycle mechanics. I soda-blasted the frame and fork, primed and painted them myself using pastel shades of Rust-Oleum and a lot of patience. I used classic Raleigh/Carlton graphics as a model for my decals and lettering. Components and hardware were sourced from IRD/Soma, Velo Orange, Harris Cyclery, and the like. The bike without fenders, racks, and bags weighed 24.5 lbs., and that was with the Brooks B67 saddle. Once it was all put together, it registered 36 lbs on my luggage scale. Packed (lightly this time) for the `Tour it was 44lbs, all-in. Quite an improvement over my DL1 behemoth.

The Lake Pepin Tour this year was a doddle, as the Brits say. This bike is fast and fun, though it feels quite a bit more delicate than my old Raleigh Roadster. But it was good entertainment watching people stare at the bike and seeing that cartoon question-mark pop over their heads. So this story was told many, many times over that weekend.

And the reason I feature it here in this thread is because it was built entirely "For The Love Of English 3-Speeds".

The End.

Velocivixen 06-25-17 01:44 PM

@DQRider - Thank you. Wonderful restoration of an old classic. I like the backstory a lot.


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