Speaking of lug shapes. I should really start saying brackets. There is something I'd like to know that would help me in dating Raleigh frames. A couple of years ago, I bought this over painted and incomplete 50s Rudge to build my scorcher. While I was doing the prep work I noticed the head tube and seat tube lugs had a shape at the top tube joint I've never noticed before. It has an outward U shape at the top instead of the inward V shape. The front of the lug has the post 55 shape that Raleigh used all the way to the end of production. The hub date on this bike is Jan 55. I'd love to know when this top tube joint was changed and was wondering if anyone here with 1950s Raleigh made Sports frames would help me out.
The green frame here is from a 1969 Sports. The black one is my 55 Rudge. Thanks.

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^^ would love to see some full shots of this Rudge scorcher if you have any.

That Rudge is a great looking old bike! Good luck with the project. I reminds me of my '58 Sun Cresta.

Sure. I wanted to recreate a bike I had as a teenager and always regretted selling. It had a non Raleigh fork and Schwinn front wheel. I replaced the wheel with a 40 dollar stay true. Not a bad wheel BTW. My original Rudge had flipped bars, no kit for fixing flats or kick stand. I did have to make some rather non scorcher changes to suit my older body like a 22T cog,tool kit, stand and seat with a central relief channel. Since this is a 21" frame, I had to use an extra length stem to get the leg extension and upper body balance I need for longer rides.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4324/...58cf37b7_k.jpgRudge Scorcher by Billy Bones, on Flickr

@BigChief. Must be a Rudge lug, my early 50's has it too
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/w5...o=w509-h902-no

52 Humber has a Birds mouth at the front, plain at the seat tube.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a0...=w1604-h902-no

I wonder if it is specific to Rudge. Raleigh did continue to make the hand chainwheels and oval crown forks with Rudge style chrome caps when they took over production.
It's hard to make out lug shapes in most photos and catalog pictures. I did see a very original 1954 Raleigh Sports in person once and the front of the head lug was a plain oval like a DL1, the top tube joint was that birds mouth shape and the seat tube lug had a plain straight edge. That's how I came to date the more elaborate shaped lugs to around 1955.

The Headbadge dates plain lugs and birdmouths to 53. Yours could have been transitional. I think they often used what was available.
http://www.kurtkaminer.com/raleigh_sportsketch_1951.jpg

@BigChief That looks like a fun machine! Great use of an old Rudge too.

When I complete the Rudge conversion I have I will start on my own Raleigh Sport scorcher build. I have a 21" frame as well. Don't know if it will go 3 speed or single speed. It will definetly have the flipped north roads, no fenders or chain guard.

Thanks, I only hope it comes out half as nice as that 58 Sun of yours. Do you get to ride it on a regular basis? I want mine to be a Reg rider when I'm done. I will have to make considerations for weather though. Hopefully Koolstop pads will improve braking if I get into some wet stuff.

Yes, a proper scorcher should have flipped north roads. I just can't spend much time on drop bars anymore. I'm 100% sold on Kool Stops. I've only tried the salmon colored ones, but when you find something that works so well, you don't mess with it. Looking forward to seeing your Raleigh scorcher come along. Love the Rudge. That will be one sharp bike!

Thanks BigChief!

The scorcher will be my black frame Raleigh. I will have flipped bars only because the Raleigh stem has a tall rise! I have a set of the salmon KS, I heard they come in grey or black, my preference.

Through all your efforts and my getting hear your opinions. I fell that the age is narrowed down to 1951-1961 with leanings toward 54-58. Five or six more picture may prompt mare conversation.Attachment 576844

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And then again is it a 54 or a 58? Serial # 69722? Attachment 576848

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There's no doubt that this is an early 50s frame.

I would not have thought this bike would be a single speed model. Maybe I missed something, have to go back and read when it was introduced. The hubs on this machine are exact what came on my early 60s Rudge 10 speed.

BTW, if at all possible, I would love to know the spoke length used for the rear wheel.

Interesting project to clean up!

@plympton is the headbadge aluminium? What years were they going with that metal?

I would love to use it more, but the gearing is too high for me for everyday use. Last Sunday I rode it 25km on a rail trail in the lowest gear so my wife could keep up! I would be better off with a 3 speed as well for gearing. If I could find the right parts I would convert the 52T chain ring or add a double. I'm conflicted as it is a fairly rare otherwise unmolested Sun.

That is such a beautiful machine.

I think if you saved everything you took off, it would be exceptable to find a lower toothed chainring or build another wheel using a period 3 speed hub.

But then this is just my opinion.

3 speeds down on the coast where I am just make sense for old English bikes.

Is the Head badge aluminum? I don't know it. It's non-magnetic though. The rivets have an unusual crown, I hope there the kind that can be saved.

They are riveted that way from the factory. If at all possible I would not remove the badge.

Sure looks like aluminium.

Yeah - that's the early post-war style "ball" oiler on the bottom bracket rather than the metal "flip top" oiler seen later in the 1950s. It's closer to a '54 rather than a '58. Does the front fork look like a replacement? Those slotted front drops look later to me. The earlier bikes had the round joint.

I think the slot area is round. I'll have to google the differences and see. It's amazing that you guys can pick these things up. Shows your dedication. I'm all over the place each year i restore something different, can't settle on the one thing.

@SirMike1983 I'd like to ask a favor. On your 1958 Sports, does the head tube and seat tube lugs at the top tube joint look like this black one or this green one? Thanks

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again my apologies for the pic.Attachment 576948

These could be twins
Modified Glider frame with stuff from the parts bin.
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