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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

ascherer 09-13-19 02:09 PM


Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 21121412)
And in the case of a British Three Speed: Don't forget your spanner!

Vintage bike, vintage tool. This gem is a 3-in-1 tool and is meant for my proper British machine.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...53887c94e.jpeg

Salubrious 09-13-19 03:51 PM

The All British Cycle Event (ABCE) is this weekend. Gather at Merlin's Rest (Minneapolis) tomorrom morning at 9:AM.

Sunday is the swap meet, Gravity Race and Show and Lie :)

I plan to bring my '54 Bates, '61 Sports, a nice cheap Superbe anda bunch of parts...

gster 09-14-19 05:50 AM

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...49ef995ef4.jpg

HPL 09-14-19 06:48 AM

"no date code" sturmey-archer "aw" hub
 
1 Attachment(s)
After some more research and getting advice and insight from BF members, l have determined the year of my "AW" hub. Although some early S-A hubs were without a date code stamped on them, there are a few from the 40's and 50's that were also sans date codes. My particular hub is clearly stamped with "AW", but no date. This model was made only during WW2, 1941-42, and is identifiable by the left side "ball cup" having a factory black painted finish (ensure that it has factory paint, looks almost anodized), the patina will be obvious. Also, it will have a threaded on drive sprocket, not splined! Apparently, there is another group of hubs from the 50's without a date code, but having a silver finish on left cup with a splined sprocket mount. My hub is on a Raleigh Sports Tourist having a serial number (J26399) interpolated to be from 1930-1933, so it is not original to the frame if the frame is indeed from the 30's. If anyone has a 1941-1942 bike with a similar hub I would be interested to know for further confirmation.

I am also still trying to confirm the year(s) of manufacture for the "DYNOHUB" on the same bike. I have yet to see an example of this front hub. If someone has this hub original to their frame, I again would be interested in order to determine my hub's vintage. My hub has no markings in the center portion where the terminal lugs protrude. Markings appear on the "middle" ring, which appears to have been factory painted silver with a black band incorporating silver print and "diamonds". The main hub "shell" is chrome finish with "32" (spoke count) stamped on the left side.
One terminal lug post is broken. Is this repairable? I have not yet dismantled to determine the viability of repairing the hub.

Thanks again for all the help and advice.

Ged117 09-14-19 07:19 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21122056)

My Cyclo is a 1949 model 3 speed unit. It has a date code. I think your sheet shows later units. I only wish that the AW could handle more teeth on the big cog for steeper hills, but it still helps.

BigChief 09-14-19 09:38 AM


Originally Posted by HPL (Post 21122091)
After some more research and getting advice and insight from BF members, l have determined the year of my "AW" hub. Although some early S-A hubs were without a date code stamped on them, there are a few from the 40's and 50's that were also sans date codes. My particular hub is clearly stamped with "AW", but no date. This model was made only during WW2, 1941-42, and is identifiable by the left side "ball cup" having a factory black painted finish (ensure that it has factory paint, looks almost anodized), the patina will be obvious. Also, it will have a threaded on drive sprocket, not splined! Apparently, there is another group of hubs from the 50's without a date code, but having a silver finish on left cup with a splined sprocket mount. My hub is on a Raleigh Sports Tourist having a serial number (J26399) interpolated to be from 1930-1933, so it is not original to the frame if the frame is indeed from the 30's. If anyone has a 1941-1942 bike with a similar hub I would be interested to know for further confirmation.

I am also still trying to confirm the year(s) of manufacture for the "DYNOHUB" on the same bike. I have yet to see an example of this front hub. If someone has this hub original to their frame, I again would be interested in order to determine my hub's vintage. My hub has no markings in the center portion where the terminal lugs protrude. Markings appear on the "middle" ring, which appears to have been factory painted silver with a black band incorporating silver print and "diamonds". The main hub "shell" is chrome finish with "32" (spoke count) stamped on the left side.
One terminal lug post is broken. Is this repairable? I have not yet dismantled to determine the viability of repairing the hub.

Thanks again for all the help and advice.

If you go back a page and check out the 1940 catalog page I posted you'll see an image of the Dynohub in the lower left corner. It matches yours exactly. I never noticed the difference before. So all I can say with certainty is that sometime between 1940 and 1951, they redesigned it. I don't know how to deal with the broken pole. You are not supposed to remove the magnet so there's no way to get at it from behind. Maybe it could be drilled and tapped from the front. Splined cogs on AW hubs started around 1952-3. My 51 has a threaded driver. There's a good rebuild video on youtube for Dynohubs.

HPL 09-14-19 12:44 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 21122232)
If you go back a page and check out the 1940 catalog page I posted you'll see an image of the Dynohub in the lower left corner. It matches yours exactly. I never noticed the difference before. So all I can say with certainty is that sometime between 1940 and 1951, they redesigned it. I don't know how to deal with the broken pole. You are not supposed to remove the magnet so there's no way to get at it from behind. Maybe it could be drilled and tapped from the front. Splined cogs on AW hubs started around 1952-3. My 51 has a threaded driver. There's a good rebuild video on youtube for Dynohubs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SnEkpU0YeU

Thanks again for your help Big Chief, I had not taken a close look at that image of the hub, nor is my viewing device very good for seeing details; not good for taking photos either as apparent by my previous posts. It could very well be that both wheels assy's were replaced at the same time and are of the same vintage. I would still like to see a photo image if someone has one referenced to a known frame/year.
Taking a quick look at the men's frame shows it to be a different model; fenders are different, head tube lugs are not "fishtail" cut-out, "bolt-on" seatstays, serial # AD99185, but another no date "AW" hub, no front "dyno". Photos forthcoming.

BigChief 09-14-19 04:03 PM


Originally Posted by HPL (Post 21122419)
Thanks again for your help Big Chief, I had not taken a close look at that image of the hub, nor is my viewing device very good for seeing details; not good for taking photos either as apparent by my previous posts. It could very well be that both wheels assy's were replaced at the same time and are of the same vintage. I would still like to see a photo image if someone has one referenced to a known frame/year.
Taking a quick look at the men's frame shows it to be a different model; fenders are different, head tube lugs are not "fishtail" cut-out, "bolt-on" seatstays, serial # AD99185, but another no date "AW" hub, no front "dyno". Photos forthcoming.

I'm afraid serial numbers out of Nottingham aren't reliable. I'm sure the frame is post 1935. It has the more modern rear dropouts. A feature you could use to establish a latest date would be the flat ended fork legs. This was changed to brazed in dropouts early on, not sure when, but my 51 are brazed in. Maybe someone here will know when this change happened. I think all the parts are original to the frame and it dates to the late 30s or early 40s.

Johno59 09-15-19 03:00 AM

SA hubs in 1933,34 and 35? had no date stamps. Before that they were stamped K. The AW- 3 was introduced in 1936. K went back to before WW1 and up until 1914 they were stamped with an X. It is unlikely (but not impossible) that the hub is older than the frame as frames go forever but hubs require some care to keep going for 80 years. I found the Raleigh frame serial # archive very accurate. Sunbeam as well. Rudge is completely useless but the pictorial catalogue for Rudge is probably the best.

Johno59 09-15-19 04:04 AM


Originally Posted by HPL (Post 21122091)
After some more research and getting advice and insight from BF members, l have determined the year of my "AW" hub. Although some early S-A hubs were without a date code stamped on them, there are a few from the 40's and 50's that were also sans date codes. My particular hub is clearly stamped with "AW", but no date. This model was made only during WW2, 1941-42, and is identifiable by the left side "ball cup" having a factory black painted finish (ensure that it has factory paint, looks almost anodized), the patina will be obvious. Also, it will have a threaded on drive sprocket, not splined! Apparently, there is another group of hubs from the 50's without a date code, but having a silver finish on left cup with a splined sprocket mount. My hub is on a Raleigh Sports Tourist having a serial number (J26399) interpolated to be from 1930-1933, so it is not original to the frame if the frame is indeed from the 30's. If anyone has a 1941-1942 bike with a similar hub I would be interested to know for further confirmation.

I am also still trying to confirm the year(s) of manufacture for the "DYNOHUB" on the same bike. I have yet to see an example of this front hub. If someone has this hub original to their frame, I again would be interested in order to determine my hub's vintage. My hub has no markings in the center portion where the terminal lugs protrude. Markings appear on the "middle" ring, which appears to have been factory painted silver with a black band incorporating silver print and "diamonds". The main hub "shell" is chrome finish with "32" (spoke count) stamped on the left side.
One terminal lug post is broken. Is this repairable? I have not yet dismantled to determine the viability of repairing the hub.

Thanks again for all the help and advice.

J 26399 is a 1933 frame. The front dynohub would have Z curled spokes on the lower side originally and keyhole eyelets if slightly older. The original rear hub would have no date stamp.

BigChief 09-15-19 06:21 AM

This is the pre-1936 frame

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...178c2a506d.jpg

BigChief 09-15-19 06:27 AM

and the "light roadster version of 1935

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3eea693944.jpg

Road Fan 09-15-19 08:15 AM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 21122118)
My Cyclo is a 1949 model 3 speed unit. It has a date code. I think your sheet shows later units. I only wish that the AW could handle more teeth on the big cog for steeper hills, but it still helps.

Why canít the AW handle bigger tooth counts? Does this limitation also apply to the FM, FG, and FW?

jackbombay 09-15-19 12:11 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21113134)
I have a Sprite w/ the 5 speed hub.
I added the double throttle shifters.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1d5610444c.jpg
I find if the bike sits for awhile w/ both shifters on the "off" position,
i.e both forward, the secondary shifter will not engage easily.
The bike now rests with the primary "off" i.e. in third and the secondary
shifter engaged.
Seems to keep the hub freed up.


I can certainly appreciate the stock equipment, but I do much prefer the trigger shifters for functionality. I'm going to go full resto-mod on my sprite build so there will be many parts that are not stock when I'm done, so not having the stock shifters is fine with me.

Johno59 09-15-19 12:11 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 21123160)
Why canít the AW handle bigger tooth counts? Does this limitation also apply to the FM, FG, and FW?

The AW 9 (9 = 1939) are screw on sprocket, so any size is possible. On my 1903 Sunbeam I put on a SA 4 speed, a 3 speed freewheel, a Resilion derailleur and the original 2 speed direct dive. All up 24 speed. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...61ca160ab2.jpg

jackbombay 09-15-19 12:13 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 21123160)
Why canít the AW handle bigger tooth counts? Does this limitation also apply to the FM, FG, and FW?

Sturmey recommends no lower than a 2:1 ratio, 48/24, but sheldon brown talks about using cassette cogs larger than 24 to get lower gearing. I'm sure you can go lower than 2:1 if you are a lighter guy, I'd bet you can go way lower than 2:1 if you just avoid standing and pedaling in 1st gear on steep hills.

Johno59 09-15-19 12:19 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21113134)
I have a Sprite w/ the 5 speed hub.
I added the double throttle shifters.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1d5610444c.jpg
I find if the bike sits for awhile w/ both shifters on the "off" position,
i.e both forward, the secondary shifter will not engage easily.
The bike now rests with the primary "off" i.e. in third and the secondary
shifter engaged.
Seems to keep the hub freed up.

God I love those old SA push pull shifters

Johno59 09-15-19 12:28 PM

112 geared SA
 

Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 21123392)
Sturmey recommends no lower than a 2:1 ratio, 48/24, but sheldon brown talks about using cassette cogs larger than 24 to get lower gearing. I'm sure you can go lower than 2:1 if you are a lighter guy, I'd bet you can go way lower than 2:1 if you just avoid standing and pedaling in 1st gear on steep hills.

Sheldon Brown made a 105 geared bike with a IGH SA 5 speed, a screw on 7 speed FW and a front triple crankset.

nlerner 09-15-19 01:26 PM


Originally Posted by Johno59 (Post 21123409)
Sheldon Brown made a 105 geared bike with a IGH SA 5 speed, a screw on 7 speed FW and a front triple crankset.

I haven't quite gone that over the top, but I did confirm that a 5-speed freewheel fits fine on a threaded driver with a 6 1/4" axle (the longer one to fit in a 120mm-spaced rear end). Didn't see the need to put that in actual use, however.

Johno59 09-15-19 02:10 PM

15 speed works in East Anglia

gster 09-15-19 04:36 PM

Six Speed Conversion Sh*t Show
What I thought would be a simple project has
been somewhat frustrating but there is a light
at the end of the tunnel....
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ef5c57c039.jpg
I set the bike up yesterday and bought a 3/32" 10 speed chain assuming the 1/2" pitch
would be compatible.
It wasn't.
It binds on the chain ring and refused to engage the smaller cog..
I'd had enough and let it be.
Today I added a couple of washers to the derailleur rollers to expand
the width to accept a standard 1/8" chain.
All seemed good.
Until I installed the master link which now
catches on the derailleur cage
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...32a2e50b7d.jpg

I'm not dissuaded. The 3/32" chain was only $15.00 and the
1/8" chain was cobbled together from a couple I had lying around.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...479346e839.jpg
Tomorrow's another day......

rhenning 09-15-19 04:42 PM

If you use to low of gears on a SA AW you can put more power input into the hub than the 4 small planetary gears inside the hub can handle and they break in half. As some one like me who grew up riding 3 speed in the 1960s I got good at replacing them. Roger

SirMike1983 09-15-19 05:58 PM

Phillips, Schwinn, and Raleigh 3-speeds.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-arFXxDEfo....15.19%2B2.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9tZXKqCSS...%2B9.15.19.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-S-rJQ9hUY...n%2B9.8.19.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wbz5md97c...%2B8.24.19.jpg

BigChief 09-15-19 06:45 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21123666)
Six Speed Conversion Sh*t Show
What I thought would be a simple project has
been somewhat frustrating but there is a light
at the end of the tunnel....
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ef5c57c039.jpg
I set the bike up yesterday and bought a 3/32" 10 speed chain assuming the 1/2" pitch
would be compatible.
It wasn't.
It binds on the chain ring and refused to engage the smaller cog..
I'd had enough and let it be.
Today I added a couple of washers to the derailleur rollers to expand
the width to accept a standard 1/8" chain.
All seemed good.
Until I installed the master link which now
catches on the derailleur cage
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...32a2e50b7d.jpg

I'm not dissuaded. The 3/32" chain was only $15.00 and the
1/8" chain was cobbled together from a couple I had lying around.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...479346e839.jpg
Tomorrow's another day......

How about pressing in a regular link instead of using the master link. I know you're not supposed to reuse a chain pin after it's been pressed out, but it's one of those things that might be against the rules but seems to work fine.

gster 09-15-19 07:02 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 21123812)
How about pressing in a regular link instead of using the master link. I know you're not supposed to reuse a chain pin after it's been pressed out, but it's one of those things that might be against the rules but seems to work fine.

I was thinking that as well.
I've done it before....


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