I recommend a cog from 22 to 24 for all around use and upright riders.

Are you going to keep it? It's so nice I wouldn't want to change anything major. But I can't imagine riding it in the rain and trying to stop....

Chrome molybdenum, or chrome moly for short.

To be fair, my 1968 Raleigh Superbe would be about $550 in today's dollars, and that was hi-ten. But yes, it had the fenders and all the other bits on it.

At least the Haskell is steel, not aluminum, which has become the default material for lower-priced hybrids. But yeah, it wouldn't have hurt them to put fenders on it. And that shifter looks S-A.

A good option for a kitted out modern steel three speed would be a Linus. I think they are about $600 or so, and have fenders and rear rack included.

Ah, Linus... Yes, they do have the right idea with their Roadster Sport - and the frame is hi-ten steel with a "cro-mo" downtube. Interesting, that. But you see what they are emulating, right? The classic English 3-speed! But with a Nexus instead of Sturmey-Archer. They both weigh a bit over thirty pounds, although "The All-Steel Bicycle" is almost certainly heavier.

This is a challenge I have been thinking of taking on: Can I build a bicycle with quality equal or superior to the Linus Roadster Sport, for less than that asking price of $600. Early research indicates that it won't be possible if I'm paying retail for all the modern upgrade components. However, if I can find modern alloy components on Craigslist or eBay to replace all the steel components of a Raleigh Sport, for example, I just might be able to pull it off.

Sure would be fun to try... I feel a Winter Project coming on!

FWIW, my DL-1 was built for less than that. But it is a distinctly different animal from the lightweight Sports from Raleigh, or Linus. For one thing, there is nothing lightweight about it. I haven't checked yet, but I'm betting he will tip the scales right around fifty pounds, kitted out for Pepin.

P.S. Right after I posted this, I went to CL and found this for $50:

http://images.craigslist.org/01515_8...wK_600x450.jpg

Ad says it needs a new tube for the rear, and it will be good-to-go. And the owner has the chainguard for it. This would make a good starting point, if I didn't already have a frame for the project.

@gna- gonna leave it as is. Just cables & different brake pads @ slightly wider 1.75 Schwalbe Marathons. I already have one that is modified and I want this one just the way it is.

Mild steel on Raleigh Haskell just like with the original Raleigh Sports - a high end frame wouldn't do for the masses. ;)

I am not thinking that references to high tensile steel are the same as mild carbon steel in the bike world though some may use them interchangeably. Bikes that I have ridden made from high tensile steel throughout are lively and reasonably light constructions. Not bashing on these 3 speeds, they are what they are, but I do not think them to be constructed of high tensile steels as the frames feel relatively dead. Again, not really a bad thing for the intended purpose, as it produces a soft, compliant ride at a modicum of cost. Even at 62yo, I am still more than strong enough, too turn up the watts, and noodle-ize one of these, but why, it simply is not the intention of the bike or the market they were sold to. They are delightful as they were intended when used as intended. These stories of dropping pelotons, I mean, like, I love a tall tale ;). Frame aside, the SA hub could not take the power input now anymore than it could when I was 14yo and stood on it up the hill.

I hope folks here will forgive me for injecting a bit of reality and science into this thread.

Keeping tubing diameters the same, frame stiffness is mainly a function of the amount of steel (frame weight). The variation in the index of stiffness (Young's Modulus) is very small comparing various structural steel alloys, as seen in this graph.

The benefit of higher alloys, ie. higher carbon steels or chrome-moly, or similar isn't that they are inherently stiffer, because they're not. It's that they are stronger, allowing thinner, lighter tubes to be equally strong. However, with lower weight you get less stiffness.

Normally the fix would be larger tube diameters, but high end tube walls are already about as they can be without unreasonable risk of denting or buckling under compression.

So, when all is said and done, steel frames made of better steels can be lighter, but that means that frames made of crappy steels will be stiffer.

As far as subjective differences, besides the weight, it's that excess stiffness, not flex, that makes low alloy frames feel dead and ride like trucks.

Note, before folks start screaming, everything above is based on tube dimensions (not counting wall thickness) are the same. That's critical because while the three main tubes are the same diameters on various steel frames, forks and stays vary significantly and that can have a major effect on ride quality.

I think that the North American bike market has been too focused on "sport" bikes for far too long, so when they make forays into "utility/city" bikes, they either get it wrong or miss details. Compare that to much of the rest of the world, esp Europe, where things like racks, fenders, even lights are all included and are not add-ons afterwards. At least Linus and Public are on to something, and sell well where they are sold.

I wrote a blog post about the dearth of fully kitted utility bikes in North America. It was sparked by seeing a Novara Transfer in the wild. It was chro-moly, hub geared, racked, fendered, chainguarded AND had dynamo lighting. REI sold it for about $700 for a time, but they discontinued it and their newer options don't have all the features (or go overboard, like hydraulic disc brakes.) Sure, to many here the frame isn't that attractive, but at least it gets the job done.
https://urbanadventureleague.wordpre...actical-bikes/
https://urbanadventureleague.files.w...=700&h=&crop=1

Yeah, I think there is confusion between "mild" and "high tensile" steel, but as far as I can tell, at least later Raleigh three speeds (or any steel Raleigh) used high tensile 20-30 steel, which as far as I can tell is NOT mild steel. You can see it in the 1968 Raleigh USA catalog (see page 4):
http://sheldonbrown.com/retroraleigh...talog-1968.pdf

And I've seen a High Tensile or 20-30 High Carbon sticker on the seat tube of a few Raleigh three speeds:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7339/8...5fdb1d3ba7.jpg

Yep, that is what I said. It (the Raleigh Sports) is heavy and dead feeling compared to my Italian bikes or even my Surly CC which are most definitely more lively feeling. The materials were chosen in both cases for the purpose intended and for the expectations of the market. The Raleigh was sold to a different market than a high end SLX Columbus Italian racer and racer there used appropriately. My interest was high tensile strength vs mild carbon steel and it's use in these slightly sporty (and spiffy) utility bicycles. As my wife says, they are cute. I am not sure I would change a thing now that my appreciation for the all steel bike is renewed.

That said, anybody ever want to make a Raleigh Sports out of SL tubing, what a sleeper, a 25 pound wolf in sheep clothing. It certainly would not hurt anything but what workman could afford such a thing? One thing, applying a 50 pound force to the BB of my Raleigh results in a noticeably greater deflection than on my Pinarello. Raleigh, heavier yes, stiffer, I cannot agree. But a bloke on his way to work would he care, I doubt it.

So then we are saying that at least later versions of the Sports had a high tensile steel frame or main frame? Hmmm? Well, indeed this is interesting:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...psnxdpw8sc.jpg

I am not saying these are good tires or even slightly better than poor tires, only that they are black and appear to be made from some sort of rubbery like stuff:

http://www.sears.com/bell-sports-701...&blockType=G37

I thought Bell had quit making them. The versions I have are similar but not the same. Added Kevlar?

Well, there is this sad creature awaiting some long overdue attention:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...psme90ydey.jpg

Had I seen this bike before I bought my Scott Sub-10, I might have bought this instead. REI had the Gotham right next to the Sub-10 in their showrooms last year, priced similarly, both with belt-drive/disc-brakes/IGH, but the Alfine hub tipped the scales in favor of the Scott - I understand how that works. The NuVinci 360 in the Novarra bikes, on the other hand, is some sort of black magic.

However, since this is the English 3-speed thread, I'm afraid I have wandered off the path a bit. Sorry.

An Announcement:

I've decided that I am going to take up the challenge to build a superior Lightweight English 3-speed Roadster after all. Elsewhere in C&V there is a thread called "NAME THAT FRAME", in which I try to get some expert to identify a beautifully lugged, hand-built Reynolds 531 frameset that I have recently acquired. So far, the consensus is that it is from the early 1970s, probably British, (maybe American - but built in the British style), from a small, low-volume shop (serial number 352).

http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/...pslgaffjjy.png

This frame is incredible, weighing in at 4.3 lbs, with the fork at 1.5. It is going to be the basis for something I am calling Project John Bull. I have received official recognition for this project from the Gentleman Cyclist's Shirt-Tail Organizer, so it will be eligible for both the ABCE and the Lake Pepin 3-speed Tour. I will keep a build thread here on the C&V forum, all starting as soon as they begin salting the roads again here next winter. This one is going to be fun!

I don't know what alloy Raleigh's 20-30 tubing is, but I don't think it's fair to call it gas pipe or consider it to be a cheap and inferior product. Back before modern welding techniques, the whole point of brazing a frame in formed lugs was to allow for lighter tubing that couldn't stand up to the welding methods at the time. Raleigh went out of it's way to form and seam weld it's own tubing to get just the alloy and dimensions they wanted. True, Raleigh did continue using materials and production techniques long after they were outdated, but that is part of their charm. We can still find 1960s and 70s bikes that are essentially 1920s technology. Lugged 20-30 frames may not live up to the performance standards of modern or exotic alloy frames, but they are still high quality.

@adventurepdx, I agree that Americans don't know a good utilitarian bike. Portland has a lot of bike commuters, no? Don't you see sensible bikes there? We're seeing a big influx here. I give a lot of credit to Linus and Biria. Their bikes make tons of sense. George Bliss owned a shop one block from me. He is out of business for now, but he was the biggest Linus dealer in the US for a while. He helped make them big. He said the Biria is basically the same but with better paint (and maybe he said better workmanship overall) and a higher price. The Biria bikes look good to me. I test rode a non-folding bike with 20" wheels. It was too weird for me to imagine what it's like to ride every day.

@DQRider, I look forward to seeing your new townie bike. I have a 1975 Viscount that I converted to fixed gear with flat handlebars. Unfortunately, the clearance between the chain stays is small. I can fit a 32mm tire in there but not with a fender. It's OK because I don't ride the bike much, but it's awfully fun. It's very lightweight, and it has sport-touring geometry, which is fun and versatile.

Most of the bicycles on this planet are made with high carbon steel, the difference between a bike like a Grand Prix and a straight gauge 531 framed model is about a pound.

In a lot of cases it came down to the parts that were attached to the 20-30 frames vs what came with the straight gauge 531 frames that made most of the difference... I recently upgraded a Peugeot AO8 which has a high carbon frame with some nice period parts and it curbs out at 26 pounds.

My '54 Raleigh 3 speed is 28 pounds with alloy wheels and brakes, it still has the rest of it's steel parts and by itself that old high carbon steel frame isn't really that heavy.

We know that when the end comes all that will be left is cockroaches and old Raleigh three speeds, and a bunch of electroforged Schwinns.

We do see a lot of sensible bikes here. We have shops that cater to urban/utility bicycles/bicyclists, like Clever. Linus does pretty well here, though Biria is still pretty exotic and Public hasn't made the inroads they probably hoped to. And every once in awhile, you'll see on CL a Dutch Workcycle that someone probably bought from Clever and then realized that Dutch bikes are maybe a bit too heavy for not-even-that-hilly Portland. ;)

But I'm thinking more outside the bubbles, outside cities like Portland, NYC, SF, Minneapolis, etc. These are the places where the big companies aren't reaching with utility bikes, despite offering them in the lineup and having an extensive dealer network.

Take for example Trek, one of the big three. Trek came out a few years back with the Belleville. You can quibble with some of the choices (and the men's frame), but let's be honest: It was a well appointed city bike, and probably the best representation of a modern Raleigh Superbe: Three speed hub (though Shimano), fenders, chainguard, racks, and even dynamo lighting as standard. And only about $700!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5PAf404x7S...ewsd_white.jpg

But Trek discontinued it, most likely due to low sales. This is despite being from one of the biggest bike companies around, with an extensive dealer network. And I can imagine that in places without an already existing urban/commuting bike culture, the Belleville languished in the dusty corner of the shop, over by the lone 520 (that is, if the shop decided to stock either bike.) And if someone came into the shop to inquire about a bike to ride the rail-trails around the area, or for around the neighborhood and to the store, I can imagine a salesperson trying to steer that person to a Madone instead of the more rational (and cheaper) choice.

Sounds like a good tattoo! :D

BD's Windsor Kensington8 has a full chromoly frame, racks and fenders and a Shimano Nexus 8 speed hub. Its priced less than the Raleigh Haskell high tensile frame and is completely traditional as a classic three speed bike should look. C&V purists will appreciate everything is true is a way is that's old, tried and true as old, tried and true should be:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/..._gray_2100.jpg

my 74 sports http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...pskpg9lsv6.jpg

Could be a Mexican built Windsor from the 70's.

We (consensus on the other thread) have already dismissed this possibility for numerous reasons. From the Classic Rendezvous site, on Windsor Mexico:

Windsor
This line of bicycles included many models but is best known for their Cinelli-look Pro and Competition. They were produced in Mexico in the 1970s and early 1980s. The 2 models used a similar frame but primarily differed in the components packages, the Pro with Campagnolo Nuovo Record (pictured) and the Competition with Suntour. Similar models were made bearing the Carabela marque; the parent company being Acer-Mex, a large domestic bicycle producer. The tubing was Columbus and the workmanship generally was good. The lugs and seat stay attachment looked very like Cinelli's top models, but unlike Cinelli, the fork crown was an external box crown. Unfortunately, a few unethical owners have placed Cinelli decals on these bikes!


They go on to show some detail shots, and you can see that the stays, the seatpost lug, and the fork crown do not match what I have. Add that to the fact that this frame is definitely Reynolds butted 531, and Windsor origin becomes highly unlikely. Thanks for the input, though.

Working on my early 50s robinhood again. I need tires. Ive got a nearly new DURO classic 3 speed tread on the rear that i cannot find a matching mate for. I have been looking forever. Id LOVE to find some Sunlite Street K103 black/black but it appears NOBODY has them in stock. Niagra used to have these for about 10 bucks each. Now they only have the white walls as does everyone else. Time to dig through the coops some more i guess.

Have you seen these? I'm planning a more sporty ride for my 55 Rudge and thought these look interesting.
The 26x 1/3/8 is rated for 70-90psi.
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/co...adsport/105857

Yes, with patience it's possible. I built my daily commuter, which I think is quite a bit better equipped than the Linus, for just over $500:

$50 on local Craigslist for a 1981 Takara hi-ten sport-tourer, with all original parts;
$100 on eBay for a 700c alloy rear wheel with a modern Sturmey Archer 5-speed hub (used, but barely, as far as I can tell);
$95 on eBay for an IDC Stout dynamo-hub 700c alloy front wheel.
$71 from Rose Bikes, with a coupon, for front and rear Busch & Müller LED dynamo lights, Hebie Chainglider, and Nexus 3/32 rear cog
$28 alloy moustache bars, eBay
$26 alloy crankset, eBay. I already had the chainring on hand
$15 Sunlite plastic fenders, Niagara Cycle
$35 CST kevlar/reflective 32mm city tires, pair, Niagara
$35 alloy rear rack, Niagara
$11 XLC city pedals, Niagara
$19 KMC 9sp chain, Niagara
$31 Sturmey 5-speed barcon shifter (new, eBay)
$18 new Tange Seiki cartridge BB, eBay
$12 Kool Stop brake pads, eBay
------
$511.

I'm not counting cables, housing, dynamo wires, or bartape (which I buy in bulk), or the saddle and chainring, which I already had. I kept the original Shimano brakes, but I can't say I love them -- my next move will definitely be to get some modern Tektro calipers. Of course, I don't actually love this frame all that much; I'm still kinda patiently looking for something cromoly with the right geometry at a similar price. It takes patience, but they're out there.

If you're happy with your hubs and just want to replace the rims, you could definitely do it way cheaper than I did.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/714/2...1d052f23_c.jpg

That's a very competent looking commuter. Although it obviously isn't an English 3-speed, it certainly functions like a modern version of one. Thanks for breaking down the budget on this - it really helps those of us trying to upgrade older 3-speeds or build a modern version with higher-end vintage components. If you don't mind, what does the S-A 5-speed give you over the ubiquitous AW? Is it lower on the low end, higher on the high end, or does it fill the holes in the middle?

I've decided to go with a modern, alloy AW or S-RF3 with a dynamo front hub on my project. I find that, if I use a 24t sprocket and a 46t chainring, I get all the top-end I need, and I can climb any hill I've encountered on a public trail or roadway. And I stay within the rules of the local British Cycling enthusiasts.

As far as I know, they're all 20-30 Hi-Ten.

If you consider the short-lived late 1940s "Super Sports" a "Sports" (many throw it in with the Clubman), that should be a Sports frame with Reynolds 531 tubing (I've heard some people argue the Super Sports was only 531 in the main tubes, not all of them on the frame). In any event, it's a livelier bike than a straight Sports.

The Raleigh Sports was straight gauge steel.

That gave it a heavier feel compared to lighter cromoly road bikes.

But it worked very well for its intended market.

The upper class rode on club bicycles hence the name - while working class folks rode the Sports. If you made more money, you obviously could afford the best money could buy.

That doesn't diminish the Sports or its versatility in any way in an era when few people had cars.