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carleton 04-05-18 06:41 PM

I've noticed Joachim Eilers riding similar FES bars:

https://i.imgur.com/b4y1bo0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Z1D6bqz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7a2PNLA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Bp1JYt3.jpg

carleton 04-05-18 06:54 PM

I really think that's the logical end to where sprint bikes are headed.

Remember where we started from?

Lots of drop because frames were huge under the riders. And stems went up then down. Needed to get the hands back down:
http://www.sbccycles.com/wp-content/...-special-1.jpg

Then modern bikes had compact triangles and short head tubes. But sprint bars, even carbon, had the old shape. LOTS of rise to deal with all of the drop:
(Meares)
http://thehippy.net/blog/wp-content/...bt_stealth.jpg

Then 3T was like, "lol why so much drop, y'all?"
(Meares, again)
http://www.markgunter.com.au/media/u...tfolio_A07.jpg

Now FES is like, "lol...what is 'drop'?"
https://i.imgur.com/Bp1JYt3.jpg

carleton 04-05-18 06:58 PM

I really would like to see what would come if the manufacturers had incentive to make Super Bikes again. This is a road TT bike from 2016 legal in all but UCI events:

http://img.wennermedia.com/920-width...0f61f15307.jpg

I think I read that the lead designer used to design Moto GP bikes.

Andean | Diamondback Bikes

taras0000 04-05-18 08:13 PM

With the way handlebars and gearing are evolving, bikes will look like this

http://i.imgur.com/Q4WTQE1.jpg

Clythio 04-05-18 08:14 PM

[IMG]https://goo.gl/images/mTdL4M[/IMG]

carleton 04-05-18 08:52 PM

Real talk. I've always wondered why our bars don't have us in a more natural wrist position like motorcycle handlebars:

This:
https://i.imgur.com/w6Bwf4xl.jpg

Isn't far from this:
https://i.imgur.com/piInmQ9l.jpg

Would handling be adversely affected if there were some narrow-ish bars with that Moto GP angle?

I mean, that hand position is not toooo absurd when control is needed:
https://i.imgur.com/eadWtVC.jpg
https://d2gg9evh47fn9z.cloudfront.ne...BOX6817474.jpg


I mean, this guy got it:
http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/cyclists/ob...ee-numeris.jpg

Basically, that natural "punching" wrist angle but the bars back about a foot then down some where they would be positioned in drop bars.

carleton 04-05-18 08:57 PM

I mean...it's also the same hand position many use for this:
http://www.olympicweightlifting.eu/w...e-Maosheng.jpg

http://visionaryathletes.com/wp-cont...powerclean.gif

taras0000 04-05-18 11:03 PM

@carleton,

Obree's hand position is an outlier compared to all others, so I will throw it out, because his hand orientation I feel is necessary due to the extreme nature of his position, mostly related to using his muscles to support his weight comfortably. In his position, steering feel and input is going to be a crude exercise relying on his lats for most of the input as the shoulders are going to be doing a lot of support work.

One reason the drop bar position work so well is that it allows one to lower their torso while keeping their elbows tucked in. Steering input leverage is consistently maintained across any range of vertical torso manipulation. One doesn't need to flare their elbows out and greatly cock their wrists to get down, like the guy jumping the rail. Drops also allow one to rock the bike side to side without flailing all over the place.

Having ridden motorcycles quite a bit growing up, that Duc has a fairly neutral clip-on position, and that's because it's a street racer. Track riders tend to bring their clip-ons in, closer to 45*, but their clip-ons also tend to be offset further forward as well. The more you move your hands forward compared to your shoulders, the more you bring the bars in. Conversely, the closer the bars get to a riders hips the flatter the bars get. Motorcyclists also tend to rely on countersteering versus lean-and-turn like most cyclists. A flared out bar helps with this. You can countersteer on a bike as well, but the forces are so low that very little input is needed. A motorcycle, because of the weight and speeds involved, needs more push on the inside bar to get the bike to heel over, and a flatter bar helps with this. The guys who countersteer the most have the flattest bars (flat track racers).

As far as Major's bar flare compared to the Duc? His bike's steering geometry (rake, trail, HTA) will be very close to the Duc, but very different from a modern bike, so there is that to consider.

As far as the barbell comparison, the clean and jerk is a gross motor movement, and the overhand grip is the most efficient way of pulling something up high from down low. Try the same movement using a Football Bar (which allows a neutral grips), it's nearly impossible, because you need to complete a curl once the bar gets to your hips. When doing a standing start, the handlebar always stays below the hips. A neutral grip (palms facing each other), doesn't compromise deadlift performance in getting the bar to the hips, so therefore, there is nothing negative about the position for standing starts.

So for drop bars: allows consistent steering input at all torso angles, allows maintenance of aerodynamics at all torso angles, allows one to rock the bike within their own space, doesn't compromise standing start performance, and provides more than enough steering input leverage to counter the forces needed to steer a bike.

Flat bars: Allow for larger steering inputs into the bar, allow for heavy countersteering, more ergonomic when bars are closer to the torso/hips in an upright position, but less effective at flatter torso angles.

taras0000 04-05-18 11:11 PM

Try this.

Grab a flat bar, stand up and put your hands in front of you, arms down at a 45* angle (as if you were holding onto the bars of a hybrid) and steer it around an imaginary axis, 45* in each direction (1 and 7 o clock, then back to 11 and 5). Next, bend at the hips, and put that same flat bar in front of you as if you were in the drops. Now try to steer around an imaginary axis to the same degree and you will see how awkward it is.

carleton 04-06-18 12:39 AM


Originally Posted by taras0000 (Post 20267790)
try this.

Grab a flat bar, stand up and put your hands in front of you, arms down at a 45* angle (as if you were holding onto the bars of a hybrid) and steer it around an imaginary axis, 45* in each direction (1 and 7 o clock, then back to 11 and 5). Next, bend at the hips, and put that same flat bar in front of you as if you were in the drops. Now try to steer around an imaginary axis to the same degree and you will see how awkward it is.

ok.


Brb...

carleton 04-06-18 01:22 AM

OK. Back.

So, I have a CycleOps spin bike that is setup to replicate my Felt as close as possible. The only significant differences are:
- Felt has 33cm Alpina bars, Cycleops has 34cm Nitto B123 bars.
- Felt has 165mm cranks, Cycleops has 170mm cranks.

Here is where my right hand lays in the bars when I'm in my tuck:
https://i.imgur.com/YVlcnVj.jpg

Here is how I would like for it to lay (with a chopstick to illustrate the different angle):
https://i.imgur.com/3Hl0w9I.jpg

This changes the "broken wrist" that we often see with narrow bars:
(Jason Kenny)
https://i.imgur.com/ml5Nkwc.jpg

(Joachim Eilers )
https://i.imgur.com/Z1D6bqz.jpg

(Other German dudes)
http://images.smh.com.au/2012/04/03/3186398/germany.jpg

taras0000 04-06-18 01:25 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20267836)
ok.


Brb...

We're a bunch of night owls aren't we. At least we know Babypuke and Brawlo are awake as well.

carleton 04-06-18 01:29 AM


Originally Posted by taras0000 (Post 20267849)
We're a bunch of night owls aren't we. At least we know Babypuke and Brawlo are awake as well.

lol. yeah. I crashed hard after my deadlift session at the gym this evening. Ate dinner then instant REM sleep. Now I'm wiiiiiide awake.

BTW, I appreciate your detailed reply above.

For the record, I'm not advocating for flat bars. I'm just wondering why we only have "vertical" bars. I think the sweet spot is somewhere in-between.

taras0000 04-06-18 01:45 AM

Why do you want to eliminate the break in the wrist? Your wrists will always be subject to this depending on what you are doing on the bike. If you set the flare and tilt of the bar so that your wrist is neutral when you are cruising in a fast Madeline, then your wrists will break to accommodate a deeper position.

If it's about trying to align the wrist when going full gas, then when maximal force is applied to the bars, it is usually in tension to counteract the downstroke. The wrist will naturally straighten here.

A wrist that is broken like that is also a good sign that the rider is relaxed and doeasnt have a death grip on the bars.

Unless there is an ergonomic issue to solve, I don't think there is anything to gain by going with a pronounced flare. I see it as a comfort issue more than gaining anything in performance necause wrist angles change a lot during an effort, and all it would be doing is justifying that range in or out.

Kind of like locating cleats to justify the float for a toes in or toes out rider. Your hands and wrists provide a Huge amount of float. If you're not banging against either limit, then moving those limits wont help you.

taras0000 04-06-18 01:51 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20267850)

For the record, I'm not advocating for flat bars. I'm just wondering why we only have "vertical" bars. I think the sweet spot is somewhere in-between.

I had an old set of vintage bars similar to the Major Taylor that Soma offers. It felt ok at first when I threw them on a spare track bike, but I hated them after 20 minutes. You have to tilt the flats similar to a motorcycle bar, but then they suck when you get out of the saddle because the bar flats arent close to level anymore.

They really only work well for shorter top tubes (if you're goingto standon thepedals),and/or sit and spin style of riding.

The way bikes are moving, by going longer in reach, flare doesn't work too well. Taller people might get some use out of them I think, because the bars would be more underneath them.

EDIT: the vintage bars were more like Somas Walker bar, but they had more flare. Probably about 20*

taras0000 04-06-18 01:59 AM

The other thing to consider is where do you want the flare? Only on the flats? The vertical portion of the drop? Maybe have It start on the bottom third of the drop, leaving some vertical for a deep tuck.

Baby Puke 04-06-18 02:04 AM


Originally Posted by taras0000 (Post 20267849)
We're a bunch of night owls aren't we. At least we know Babypuke and Brawlo are awake as well.

Totally reading this in my office rn

gycho77 04-06-18 02:54 AM


Originally Posted by Clythio (Post 20267196)
Left and Right low handles not aligned.. :-(
But I love the design - aero and "sprinter".

It's not carbon fiber, it's two-part 3d printed object.
You can tell by the texture. I know this because I 3d print a lot haha

carleton 04-06-18 02:56 AM


Originally Posted by taras0000 (Post 20267854)
The other thing to consider is where do you want the flare? Only on the flats? The vertical portion of the drop? Maybe have It start on the bottom third of the drop, leaving some vertical for a deep tuck.

I'm sure that you are aware that Scattos are angled in such a way that the ends are wider than the front of the bars.

For 35cm:
- 35cm at the end
- 34cm at the front

For 37cm:
- 37cm at the end
- 35cm at the front

This is what I'm talking about...just maybe more so.

And yes, at the front/vertical part of the drop have the fists tilt towards each other.

To take the conversation to a higher level, think about what all the theoretical arguments against narrow bars for sprinters would have been if the idea were floated before someone made the bars, used them, and won with them.

"Standing starts suck!"
"You can't sprint out of the saddle!"
"You can't breathe because they close your chest cavity."
"Optimal width lines up with the rider's shoulders."
"Those are kid bars!"
"Scattos will ruin your fit!"

It took about 2 years for 37cm to replace 40cm as normal sprint bars...then 35cm...then 33cm. And I think the British use even smaller at times.


“One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions.” ― Wernher von Braun


All I wanna do is test it out. I'll be the first to admit if it's stupid.

Very little progression has been made for consumer sprint-specific handlebars. Compare that to how much effort, engineering, and innovation (attempts) go into TT bars. Scattos are a hit becuase 3T tried something different....that was 7 years ago.

carleton 04-06-18 03:09 AM

Of course, there is the maxim, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Which would apply to items like 7710 Dura Ace Track Cranks. But, I'm sure that if the sales projections were good enough, Shimano could make some improvements to them. Notice how they change their pedals (even ever so slightly) every few years as well as their other components.

I think that handlebars (sprint and enduro) are an "Area of Opportunity" for our sport. For example, look at how many different TT bars we've seen in Kilo/500M rides over the years vs drop bars for sprint events, yet there are more drop bar sprint events than there are aerobar sprint events.

...this is why those who can make their own drop bars...make their own drop bars.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/...03_964x645.jpg
http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/arti...rack-Day-1.jpg
http://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com/201...546184_670.jpg

Clythio 04-06-18 04:17 AM


Originally Posted by gycho77 (Post 20267873)
It's not carbon fiber, it's two-part 3d printed object.
You can tell by the texture. I know this because I 3d print a lot haha

Of course, it's a proto!

Morelock 04-06-18 05:46 AM

what the heck is it printed out of?

taras0000 04-06-18 06:06 AM


Originally Posted by Morelock (Post 20267977)
what the heck is it printed out of?

Nylon seems to be a popular and readily available medium, but it could be any plastic. Maybe there are two halves, and once finalized, the whole set up is getting carbon wrapped.

taras0000 04-06-18 07:08 AM


Originally Posted by Clythio (Post 20267905)
Of course, it's a proto!

I was thinking more again about the "misalignment", and it could very well be a final version. If the flats are flared out, then the angle of the photo will make it seem as if the alignment is off.

700wheel 04-06-18 08:47 AM

Printed steel BB
 
The Reynolds tubing website shows a additive manufactured (tech name for printing) bottom bracket:
Cycle Tubing & Tube Sets - Reynolds Technology

taras0000 04-06-18 09:10 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20267880)
Of course, there is the maxim, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Which would apply to items like 7710 Dura Ace Track Cranks. But, I'm sure that if the sales projections were good enough, Shimano could make some improvements to them. Notice how they change their pedals (even ever so slightly) every few years as well as their other components.

I think that handlebars (sprint and enduro) are an "Area of Opportunity" for our sport. For example, look at how many different TT bars we've seen in Kilo/500M rides over the years vs drop bars for sprint events, yet there are more drop bar sprint events than there are aerobar sprint events.

...this is why those who can make their own drop bars...make their own drop bars.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/...03_964x645.jpg
http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/arti...rack-Day-1.jpg
http://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com/201...546184_670.jpg

Didn't you also say to take note of people doing things outside of the box, especially if they're winning? :p

As to Scattos, they may be popular, but they weren't the groundbreaking piece of equipment that started the narrow bar revolution. That was Nitto and Alpina. Scattos just made the concept sexier by being aero and allowing riders to use a flatter stem. A cosmetic refinement of the revolution, much like hiw Shimano redesigns and trickles down their pedals to lower groups. Functionally nothing is different, it's just sexier and newer and people are willing to pay for that.

taras0000 04-06-18 09:38 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20267874)

“One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions.” ― Wernher von Braun


All I wanna do is test it out. I'll be the first to admit if it's stupid.

Very little progression has been made for consumer sprint-specific handlebars. Compare that to how much effort, engineering, and innovation (attempts) go into TT bars. Scattos are a hit becuase 3T tried something different....that was 7 years ago.

I don't think it's a stupid idea. It would definitely be nice to have more choice in dialling in your bike. I'm just of the opinion that it's not a performance enhancer, but a comfort enhancer. If you're uncomfortable, then solving that will improve performance. If you're fine, then I don't see the benefit.

I wish I had the equipment to fabricate a set(s) for you. Not to disprove anything, but to facilitate the discoveries that are possible when going off the beaten path. I'll be the first to smile if I'm wrong when there is a positive outcome.

pierrej 04-06-18 06:05 PM

3 Attachment(s)
I think a few of you might like it when metal 3d printing becomes a little more accessible. These are some custom sprint bars for the Aus para team, somewhere in the low 30/high 20cm region.
3d printed titanium and can be as strong or flexible as you'd like

carleton 04-06-18 06:11 PM

That sounds wonderful.

I can imagine even having them tweaked based on the athlete’s hand size, and as you suggest, strength.

taras0000 04-06-18 06:40 PM

One place where tweaking may help is in grip diameter. Small or large hands may benefit from variances away from the standard diameter. Could help those with smaller hands when it comes to explosive starts.


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