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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

BigChief 08-18-17 07:18 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Speaking of lug shapes. I should really start saying brackets. There is something I'd like to know that would help me in dating Raleigh frames. A couple of years ago, I bought this over painted and incomplete 50s Rudge to build my scorcher. While I was doing the prep work I noticed the head tube and seat tube lugs had a shape at the top tube joint I've never noticed before. It has an outward U shape at the top instead of the inward V shape. The front of the lug has the post 55 shape that Raleigh used all the way to the end of production. The hub date on this bike is Jan 55. I'd love to know when this top tube joint was changed and was wondering if anyone here with 1950s Raleigh made Sports frames would help me out.
The green frame here is from a 1969 Sports. The black one is my 55 Rudge. Thanks.

Attachment 576753

Attachment 576754

3speedslow 08-18-17 08:52 PM

^^ would love to see some full shots of this Rudge scorcher if you have any.

browngw 08-18-17 09:03 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19799788)
This early 60's Rudge frame will be my 3 speed drop bar conversion choice. It came to me all original and as a 10 speed. The spacing in the rear is already close to what an SA needs.

Since I have had this, it has stayed as a 10 speed, gone to a 5 speed and spent a little time as a single speed. Time for it to enjoy the gentlemanly 3 speed style.

I have a 59' SA hub coming from @clubman plus a few helpful bits to help the project along. Can't wait!

While I wait, i worked up the ERD of the 27" Dunlop rim and measurement of an SA hub. Plugged those numbers into a few sites and came up with the spoke length. Went to the spoke box and got lucky, plenty of stainless spokes to do the 40 hole hub. Ready when it arrives...

A few views


That Rudge is a great looking old bike! Good luck with the project. I reminds me of my '58 Sun Cresta.

BigChief 08-19-17 04:46 AM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19802668)
^^ would love to see some full shots of this Rudge scorcher if you have any.

Sure. I wanted to recreate a bike I had as a teenager and always regretted selling. It had a non Raleigh fork and Schwinn front wheel. I replaced the wheel with a 40 dollar stay true. Not a bad wheel BTW. My original Rudge had flipped bars, no kit for fixing flats or kick stand. I did have to make some rather non scorcher changes to suit my older body like a 22T cog,tool kit, stand and seat with a central relief channel. Since this is a 21" frame, I had to use an extra length stem to get the leg extension and upper body balance I need for longer rides.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4324/...58cf37b7_k.jpgRudge Scorcher by Billy Bones, on Flickr

clubman 08-19-17 06:25 AM

@BigChief. Must be a Rudge lug, my early 50's has it too
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/w5...o=w509-h902-no

52 Humber has a Birds mouth at the front, plain at the seat tube.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a0...=w1604-h902-no

BigChief 08-19-17 07:27 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 19803142)
@BigChief. Must be a Rudge lug, my early 50's has it too
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/w5...o=w509-h902-no

52 Humber has a Birds mouth at the front, plain at the seat tube.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a0...=w1604-h902-no

I wonder if it is specific to Rudge. Raleigh did continue to make the hand chainwheels and oval crown forks with Rudge style chrome caps when they took over production.
It's hard to make out lug shapes in most photos and catalog pictures. I did see a very original 1954 Raleigh Sports in person once and the front of the head lug was a plain oval like a DL1, the top tube joint was that birds mouth shape and the seat tube lug had a plain straight edge. That's how I came to date the more elaborate shaped lugs to around 1955.

clubman 08-19-17 07:42 AM

The Headbadge dates plain lugs and birdmouths to 53. Yours could have been transitional. I think they often used what was available.
http://www.kurtkaminer.com/raleigh_sportsketch_1951.jpg

3speedslow 08-19-17 11:00 AM

@BigChief That looks like a fun machine! Great use of an old Rudge too.

When I complete the Rudge conversion I have I will start on my own Raleigh Sport scorcher build. I have a 21" frame as well. Don't know if it will go 3 speed or single speed. It will definetly have the flipped north roads, no fenders or chain guard.

3speedslow 08-19-17 11:05 AM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 19802689)
That Rudge is a great looking old bike! Good luck with the project. I reminds me of my '58 Sun Cresta.

Thanks, I only hope it comes out half as nice as that 58 Sun of yours. Do you get to ride it on a regular basis? I want mine to be a Reg rider when I'm done. I will have to make considerations for weather though. Hopefully Koolstop pads will improve braking if I get into some wet stuff.

BigChief 08-19-17 11:20 AM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19803639)
@BigChief That looks like a fun machine! Great use of an old Rudge too.

When I complete the Rudge conversion I have I will start on my own Raleigh Sport scorcher build. I have a 21" frame as well. Don't know if it will go 3 speed or single speed. It will definetly have the flipped north roads, no fenders or chain guard.

Yes, a proper scorcher should have flipped north roads. I just can't spend much time on drop bars anymore. I'm 100% sold on Kool Stops. I've only tried the salmon colored ones, but when you find something that works so well, you don't mess with it. Looking forward to seeing your Raleigh scorcher come along. Love the Rudge. That will be one sharp bike!

3speedslow 08-19-17 11:34 AM

Thanks BigChief!

The scorcher will be my black frame Raleigh. I will have flipped bars only because the Raleigh stem has a tall rise! I have a set of the salmon KS, I heard they come in grey or black, my preference.

plympton 08-19-17 01:03 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Through all your efforts and my getting hear your opinions. I fell that the age is narrowed down to 1951-1961 with leanings toward 54-58. Five or six more picture may prompt mare conversation.Attachment 576844

Attachment 576845

Attachment 576846

Attachment 576847

plympton 08-19-17 01:07 PM

4 Attachment(s)
And then again is it a 54 or a 58? Serial # 69722? Attachment 576848

Attachment 576849

Attachment 576850

Attachment 576851

BigChief 08-19-17 02:07 PM

There's no doubt that this is an early 50s frame.

3speedslow 08-19-17 02:24 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I would not have thought this bike would be a single speed model. Maybe I missed something, have to go back and read when it was introduced. The hubs on this machine are exact what came on my early 60s Rudge 10 speed.

BTW, if at all possible, I would love to know the spoke length used for the rear wheel.

Interesting project to clean up!

3speedslow 08-19-17 02:41 PM

@plympton is the headbadge aluminium? What years were they going with that metal?

browngw 08-19-17 02:47 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19803653)
Thanks, I only hope it comes out half as nice as that 58 Sun of yours. Do you get to ride it on a regular basis? I want mine to be a Reg rider when I'm done. I will have to make considerations for weather though. Hopefully Koolstop pads will improve braking if I get into some wet stuff.

I would love to use it more, but the gearing is too high for me for everyday use. Last Sunday I rode it 25km on a rail trail in the lowest gear so my wife could keep up! I would be better off with a 3 speed as well for gearing. If I could find the right parts I would convert the 52T chain ring or add a double. I'm conflicted as it is a fairly rare otherwise unmolested Sun.

3speedslow 08-19-17 04:01 PM

That is such a beautiful machine.

I think if you saved everything you took off, it would be exceptable to find a lower toothed chainring or build another wheel using a period 3 speed hub.

But then this is just my opinion.

3 speeds down on the coast where I am just make sense for old English bikes.

plympton 08-19-17 04:06 PM

Is the Head badge aluminum? I don't know it. It's non-magnetic though. The rivets have an unusual crown, I hope there the kind that can be saved.

3speedslow 08-19-17 04:17 PM

They are riveted that way from the factory. If at all possible I would not remove the badge.

Sure looks like aluminium.

SirMike1983 08-19-17 05:39 PM

Yeah - that's the early post-war style "ball" oiler on the bottom bracket rather than the metal "flip top" oiler seen later in the 1950s. It's closer to a '54 rather than a '58. Does the front fork look like a replacement? Those slotted front drops look later to me. The earlier bikes had the round joint.

plympton 08-19-17 06:52 PM

I think the slot area is round. I'll have to google the differences and see. It's amazing that you guys can pick these things up. Shows your dedication. I'm all over the place each year i restore something different, can't settle on the one thing.

BigChief 08-19-17 07:35 PM

2 Attachment(s)
@SirMike1983 I'd like to ask a favor. On your 1958 Sports, does the head tube and seat tube lugs at the top tube joint look like this black one or this green one? Thanks

Attachment 576894

Attachment 576895

plympton 08-20-17 06:30 AM

1 Attachment(s)
again my apologies for the pic.Attachment 576948

gster 08-20-17 07:51 AM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19803040)
Sure. I wanted to recreate a bike I had as a teenager and always regretted selling. It had a non Raleigh fork and Schwinn front wheel. I replaced the wheel with a 40 dollar stay true. Not a bad wheel BTW. My original Rudge had flipped bars, no kit for fixing flats or kick stand. I did have to make some rather non scorcher changes to suit my older body like a 22T cog,tool kit, stand and seat with a central relief channel. Since this is a 21" frame, I had to use an extra length stem to get the leg extension and upper body balance I need for longer rides.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4324/...58cf37b7_k.jpgRudge Scorcher by Billy Bones, on Flickr

These could be twins
Modified Glider frame with stuff from the parts bin.
Attachment 576955


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