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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

EhGiOeS 03-04-13 11:45 PM


Originally Posted by Dawes-man (Post 15345598)
That's worth a really good laugh. Thank you! I might try that...

Please explain the humor. I'm kind of dense, as I am constantly reminded of on the forum. Ed No good ever goes unpunished

gaucho777 03-05-13 12:41 AM

Velcro-ing tubulars!!! :roflmao2: Ed, I'm glad you never had a problem. Beyond that, I'm just not sure where to begin

EhGiOeS 03-05-13 01:04 AM


Originally Posted by gaucho777 (Post 15345865)
Velcro-ing tubulars!!! :roflmao2: Ed, I'm glad you never had a problem. Beyond that, I'm just not sure where to begin

Please begin. I road them for years + 40 degrees. The Velcro bond is much stronger than any glue. Clean no glue mess easy to adjust. I realize if you are an expert you know instinctively what's right. No reason to try things . Ed

gaucho777 03-05-13 01:21 AM

Okay, I'll give this a go. I mean no offense. Maybe the hilarity is in the unexpected. First, intuitively, it doesn't seem as safe. You say it's stronger than glue, but the idea of having adhesive-backed velcro is to be able to attach and re-attach the velcro. If the glue on the back of the velcro were designed to be stronger than the velcro itself, than it wouldn't work as intended. It can be difficult enough to get a tire onto a rim without the velcro in the way, so it seems like it would be a very tight fit with the added thickness of the velcro (maybe helps keep the tire on the wheel) and would be difficult to install without moving the velcro off center. IMHO, some things are best left to tradition and tried-and-true techniques, and I believe gluing tubulars is one such example.

P.s. Also, I would also assume that it would negatively affect the ride quality since some of the road feel is dampened by the velcro. Might even make the bike feel sluggish? Also, one of the main advantages of tubulars is the weight, but this is reduced by the added weight of the velcro (I know, not much, but it's there.) Lastly, in order to start a race, your bike needs to pass an inspection; velcro'd tires would not pass an inspection.

Chombi 03-05-13 01:50 AM

I think Velco could work as it can be very strong as people already have proven when they, in a Velcro suit, jumped on to a wall and stuck on it, but work only as good as the adhesive under the Velcro strip material, which in my experience could vary from really sticky to very temporary/quite weak, depending on the brand and type of Velcro you use. There are also different grades of Velcro hook and loop design that varies from light duty ones to "industrial grade/stregnth " Velcro that really grabs very strong to each other. Another problem is, you will be introducing another source of flex or squish between the rim and the tire which equals to lost energy, and most likely mcuh more rolling resistance, so I think a tub wheelset using Velcro will never perform as good as one with using glue.
I also agree with Randy that mounting a tire might actually be much harder to do because of the thickness of the Velcro strips.
Other than maybe "tubular" clinchers, I don't think they have found anything else that might possibly come close to the performance of glued on tubular tires yer.

Chombi

EhGiOeS 03-05-13 02:01 AM


Originally Posted by gaucho777 (Post 15345917)
Okay, I'll give this a go. I mean no offense. Maybe the hilarity is in the unexpected. First, intuitively, it doesn't seem as safe. You say it's stronger than glue, but the idea of having adhesive-backed velcro is to be able to attach and re-attach the velcro. If the glue on the back of the velcro were designed to be stronger than the velcro itself, than it wouldn't work as intended. It can be difficult enough to get a tire onto a rim without the velcro in the way, so it seems like it would be a very tight fit with the added thickness of the velcro (maybe helps keep the tire on the wheel) and would be difficult to install without moving the velcro off center. IMHO, some things are best left to tradition and tried-and-true techniques, and I believe gluing tubulars is one such example.

P.s. Also, I would also assume that it would negatively affect the ride quality since some of the road feel is dampened by the velcro. Might even make the bike feel sluggish? Also, one of the main advantages of tubulars is the weight, but this is reduced by the added weight of the velcro (I know, not much, but it's there.) Lastly, in order to start a race, your bike needs to pass an inspection; velcro'd tires would not pass an inspection.

Intuitively I did mention contact cement. What does the adhesive backing have to do with attaching and reattaching The adhesive holds the Velcro in place. The compressed thickness of the Velcro is probably around 2 mm. The increase in weight less than 10 grams. So you know intuitively that my empirical experience of some 10 years was all wrong. Its great to be gifted with knowing what right or wrong instinctively with no evidence or personal experience Ed

Dawes-man 03-05-13 02:28 AM


Originally Posted by EhGiOeS (Post 15345766)
Please explain the humor. I'm kind of dense, as I am constantly reminded of on the forum. Ed No good ever goes unpunished

Remember that I'm coming from a different background to yours, once in which the use of Velcro has been confined to attaching things to the dash panel of my motorcycle (ashtray, coin holder) and to tighten cuffs of motorcycle jackets and gloves. Your unusual use made me laugh as it was incongruous with my experience of Velcro. Do you follow that?

Dawes-man 03-05-13 02:31 AM


Originally Posted by EhGiOeS (Post 15345962)
So you know intuitively that my empirical experience of some 10 years was all wrong. Its great to be gifted with knowing what right or wrong instinctively with no evidence or personal experience Ed

Sarcasm? I think that's a very poor response to the obvious effort made by gaucho777 to lay out his concerns.

EhGiOeS 03-05-13 03:44 AM


Originally Posted by Dawes-man (Post 15345990)
Sarcasm? I think that's a very poor response to the obvious effort made by gaucho777 to lay out his concerns.

You are of course correct and I'm know to be a terrible person. I should realize Randy's intuition trumps my 10 years experience. Why is it there are so many people on forums that know nothing about the subject. They just know they're right? Ed

Road Fan 03-05-13 07:13 AM


Originally Posted by EhGiOeS (Post 15345962)
Intuitively I did mention contact cement. What does the adhesive backing have to do with attaching and reattaching The adhesive holds the Velcro in place. The compressed thickness of the Velcro is probably around 2 mm. The increase in weight less than 10 grams. So you know intuitively that my empirical experience of some 10 years was all wrong. Its great to be gifted with knowing what right or wrong instinctively with no evidence or personal experience Ed

Compared to the thickness of a compressed glue bead, 2 mm is a huge thickness difference. It would result in a lot of extra tire stretching to get it on the rim.

But I can't argue with your experience, I just don't think I'd use that technique. My experience with tubulars spans over 40 years of non-continuous use, and my preference is easy on-road and in-shop replacement. Glue itself has not been an impediment. Rims that are over sized have added difficulty. Adding 1 mm between the tire and rim is a 2 mm increase in diameter and 6 mm increase in circumference. I would need to stretch the tire 6 mm farther to get it onto the rim.

My hands don't like that idea. Standard tires/rims can be hard enough.

rootboy 03-05-13 07:21 AM

You just caught everyone who've never heard of such a thing off guard, Ed. Including me. If it worked for you, what the heck.

SJX426 03-05-13 07:38 AM

I am surprized it worked for you. Would like to see pics. I believe the most challenging aspect of using tubulars is not mounting or dismounting, but repair! I used the Panaracer for a while. Ran out and purchased a small tube of the Mastic. Huge improvement in use. For those who only have used tape and would like to try glue, I would recommend the Mastic One. The best two of any are Mastic One and Continental, based on the reviews I have read that included set up time and adhesion.

clasher 03-05-13 08:53 AM

Let's see some pictures!

rootboy 03-05-13 09:00 AM


Originally Posted by SJX426 (Post 15346382)
I am surprized it worked for you. Would like to see pics. I believe the most challenging aspect of using tubulars is not mounting or dismounting, but repair! I used the Panaracer for a while. Ran out and purchased a small tube of the Mastic. Huge improvement in use. For those who only have used tape and would like to try glue, I would recommend the Mastic One. The best two of any are Mastic One and Continental, based on the reviews I have read that included set up time and adhesion.

Can you give us a little more info, SJX? What was it about the Vittoria you like so much?
I've used Panaracer once or twice. Used to use Tubasti. Yikes. Also like the old, red Clement
but that stuff was kind of a mess unless you were VERY careful.

EhGiOeS 03-05-13 10:03 AM

Okay one time once. From about 1972 I was riding with a local club run by an ex 6 day racer. We did a century every Sunday rain or shine. I was riding a 1972Colnago Pantographfata a Custom built A model by uncle Albert a Jack Taylor Tour of Brittan a Jack Taylor Curve tube a Ernie Clemins Falcon a Tyne Side Criterium, and another custom bike by a local maker. To be cool in the club you had to ride pink Clement Criterium Seta Extras. In my opinion the fines tire ever made. As I said before I was working for a company that made adhesives for 3 M. So I got a roll of the first Velcro made. Hers the recipe. What I did was contact cement the "plush" to the rim cement the "hooks " to the tire. With no pressure in the tire it is very easy to adjust for straight, no glue mess. When the tire is inflated you have the mechanical adhesion of the Velcro plus 100 plus psi pressing it down. Its as solid as steel. ED

Chombi 03-05-13 11:00 AM

The idea of the convenience that Velcro mounted tubs will provide does sound very interesting, If you were successful with it for so many years, why not ride a set of tubs for a long distance and record the experience, then sell the idea to a big bicycle tire manufacturer? Nothing like recorded, on the road testing with very challenging conditions (Including long downhill runs with lots of twisties) will prove the viability of Velcro mounted tubs or other new alternatives on how to mount tubs on rims...
Not sure what market base it will be sold to as the possibility higher rolling resistance and added weight (and who knows if the Velcro layer might retain water during wet rides as it will act like a thin sponge even with 100+ PSI pressing on it) is counter intuitive to most people who ride tubs as it kinda kills the whole point of having tubular tires on a bike and makes just going with high performance clinchers a better alternative to avoid the whole gluing thing....

Chombi

gaucho777 03-05-13 01:07 PM


Originally Posted by EhGiOeS (Post 15345766)
Please explain the humor.


Originally Posted by gaucho777 (Post 15345865)
Velcro-ing tubulars!!! :roflmao2: Ed, I'm glad you never had a problem. Beyond that, I'm just not sure where to begin



Originally Posted by EhGiOeS (Post 15345899)
Please begin.



Originally Posted by gaucho777 (Post 15345917)
Okay, I'll give this a go. I mean no offense. Maybe the hilarity is in the unexpected. First...



Originally Posted by EhGiOeS (Post 15346044)
You are of course correct and I'm know to be a terrible person. I should realize Randy's intuition trumps my 10 years experience. Why is it there are so many people on forums that know nothing about the subject. They just know they're right? Ed


You kept begging for an explanation about why something unusual struck me and others as funny, and I gave it, without trying to poke fun. Now all this talk about knowing what's right and so many people knowing nothing strikes me as defensive and/or looking for a fight. As I said from the start, I'm glad it worked for you. Personally, I'm sticking with glue.

RobbieTunes 03-05-13 07:29 PM

It would seem to me that the Velcro would work fine, with the added pressure holding the hooks to the loops.

However, it seems redundant. You glue velcro twice, once to the rim, once to the tire. You glue a tubular tire to the rim. Not sure I understand adding another layer of glue, a layer of hooks and a layer of loops.

Clinching tubulars avoid that altogether. Given the right chance, I hope they'll give tubeless a run for it's money.

Tubulars are addictive, though. I'm not sure why, but they're just cool.

My prediction is starting to come true, also. I'm starting to see Zipp "non-dimpled, non-firecrest" tubulars for lower and lower prices on CL, etc. If some carbon yup wants to buy an imagined 4 seconds/mile, who am I to argue? My ego can handle "non-dimpled, non-firecrest" wheels, I think.

SJX426 03-07-13 01:01 PM

Rootboy, it was the difference in viscosity. Much easier to spread and appeared to be thinner. The Panaracer came with a brush attached to the cap. Long strings of glue when removing the brush and difficult to spread. I put a pair of latex gloves on and use my finger with the Mastic One. Because of the ease of distribution of the glue and the ease of contolling the application, it went faster. I did a google on the best tubular tire glue and read a fairly detailed evaluation of the top 4 or so and the best bonds and performance was found to be the Mastic One and Conti.

Chombi 03-07-13 01:58 PM


Originally Posted by SJX426 (Post 15356682)
Rootboy, it was the difference in viscosity. Much easier to spread and appeared to be thinner. The Panaracer came with a brush attached to the cap. Long strings of glue when removing the brush and difficult to spread. I put a pair of latex gloves on and use my finger with the Mastic One. Because of the ease of distribution of the glue and the ease of contolling the application, it went faster. I did a google on the best tubular tire glue and read a fairly detailed evaluation of the top 4 or so and the best bonds and performance was found to be the Mastic One and Conti.

+1 on Vittoria's Mastic!...Continental's great too for the same reasons....:thumb:
At least I have two glues to choose from now.:thumb:
BTW, I use my bare index finger to best control the application of the glues on my base tapes and rims.....
I know, I will most likely live a few days shorter than I could with the glue toxins getting into my finger:eek:, but heck!, my tire installations are really nice and clean!:rolleyes:

Chombi

RobbieTunes 03-07-13 02:33 PM


Originally Posted by RobbieTunes (Post 15349480)
My prediction is starting to come true, also. I'm starting to see Zipp "non-dimpled, non-firecrest" tubulars for lower and lower prices on CL, etc. If some carbon yup wants to buy an imagined 4 seconds/mile, who am I to argue? My ego can handle "non-dimpled, non-firecrest" wheels, I think.

I'm goin' to look at a pair of HED J2's for $99, with an 8-sp cassette.

CV-6 03-07-13 04:43 PM

Anyone gone from tape back to glue on a rim? i am trying to do that now. The tape left a residue that is proving difficult to remove. Trying to wire brush it just creates gooey little balls. Sandpaper is about the same. Goo gone does not faze it. My concern is the glue will not adhere properly to the rim with this film of goo. Ideas for removal? Thanks.

Chombi 03-07-13 05:02 PM


Originally Posted by CV-6 (Post 15357699)
Anyone gone from tape back to glue on a rim? i am trying to do that now. The tape left a residue that is proving difficult to remove. Trying to wire brush it just creates gooey little balls. Sandpaper is about the same. Goo gone does not faze it. My concern is the glue will not adhere properly to the rim with this film of goo. Ideas for removal? Thanks.

Something really strong, like maybe lacquer thinner?? Tempting to use Gasoline, but that is always a bad idea, safety-wise....just way to volatile....so forget that I even mentioned it!....
Did you try mineral spirits at all? I find it much stronger at getting glue off than even Goo Gone. I'd avoid sand paper if you can as it will take off aluminum material from the rim with the goo, and you don't really want to do that.

Chombi

rootboy 03-07-13 05:48 PM

I almost hate to recommend it but, I use MEK. Nasty stuff, but cuts through about anything.

RobbieTunes 03-07-13 05:56 PM


Originally Posted by CV-6 (Post 15357699)
Anyone gone from tape back to glue on a rim? i am trying to do that now. The tape left a residue that is proving difficult to remove. Trying to wire brush it just creates gooey little balls. Sandpaper is about the same. Goo gone does not faze it. My concern is the glue will not adhere properly to the rim with this film of goo. Ideas for removal? Thanks.

I'm doing that now on a set of HED's that once had tape. The tape is left on the rim in many spots. Nope, Goo Gone doesn't touch it. Mineral spirits are way too slow. I put a $5 wire brush on a drill and had one done in about 10 minutes. I used the paint stripper brush. You'll get covered in dust, and be careful if you're wearing a loose t-shirt. If it gets caught in the drill, you will lose skin until the t-shirt wraps around the bit enough to stop the drill. Do not ask me how I know this.

Now, I have lots of little bits of residue floating around inside my HED's. I have to figure out how to get them out, or live with the noise.

I've removed taped tires from rims before, and actually put them on other rims, using a very light amount of adhesive, right down the middle. I doubt anyone would recommend this, but it worked fine, and probably still does for whomever owns that bike.


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